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> Game of Thrones • The Iron Throne, S08E06 | SPOILERS
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dandy*
post May 21 2019, 12:04 PM
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I didn't think Bran knew the future or maybe I've misunderstood? I thought he could only visit the past?
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Dexton
post May 21 2019, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE(cantthinkofaname @ May 21 2019, 06:50 PM) *
Some examples of why I hated this season include:
- Tyrion saying that Bran being infertile is a good thing when he considered it a bad thing when Dany's infertility was discussed.
- Yara laughing at the thought of a democracy in the seven kingdom when that's literally how they choose their kings & queens in the Iron Islands.
- The Dothraki conveniently forgetting that whoever kills their Khal or Khaleesi becomes their new Khal or Khaleesi.
- Bran knowing he'd become king also means he knew that Dany would go mad and murder a million people and did nothing to stop it.
- Sam being in King's Landing despite never having been released of his vows to the Night's Watch means he technically should be executed but ok what are rules anyway.
- Jaime and Cersei literally could have moved 5 feet to the left to survive the falling debris even though we were led to believe the entire building had collapsed as evidenced by this scene.
- The Unsullied executed Lannister soldiers immediately despite surrendering, but followed due process and locked the person who killed their queen away for two weeks to await trial by a group of people including their friends and family.
- So many important scenes being cut away for absolutely no reason other than convenience, like Jon telling Sansa & Arya of his lineage, how TF Euron managed to steal Missandei (and how TF he knew she was important), how Jon explained to Grey Worm and the Unsullied what happened between him and Dany, etc.
- Dany forgetting the god damn iron fleet. And don't try to say that she was arrogant enough to think she could beat them or whatever, the writers literally said that she forgot about them.
- Dany being ok with murdering millions of innocents while a few seasons back she locked away her dragons for killing even only one innocent child.
- Dany not even once trying to kill Cersei in E5 despite her being the main reason why she went mad. In E6 we see she's not even found the body (and presumably hasn't even bothered to check since nothing points that way) as Tyrion is the one who (very easily) found it. Does she even care that Cersei is dead? Same for the people who killed Drogon (Euron) and Missandei (The Mountain). Neither of them were killed by her and she doesn't really seem to care which is odd. The thousands and thousands of innocents who did nothing to her however..
- All of the storylines we were led to believe were important but ended up having literally zero impact on the show, such as: Jon's lineage, Varys sending out the info about Jon before being executed, Arya's face changing skills, Bran's warging thing during the Battle of Winterfell, Bronn's subplot, that damn horse that Arya met at the end of E5, the lord of light, the prince that was promised, THE GOD DAMN NIGHT KING
- So many people having the thickest and most impenetrable plot armour ever built.


- Bare in mind there was a mass murder in between Tyrion saying both those things, plus as he said himself he's "had a lot of time to think" being imprisoned for ~1 month. He brought up the question of who Dany thought would rise to throne when she eventually died because her whole agenda was that she (a Targaryen) needs to retake her family throne. She wanted her family to be rulers of the 7 Kingdoms again and Tyrion was questioning how the Targaryen name would live on if the last living Targaryen was infertile. Bran being infertile has no impact on the future rulers of Westeros because his son/daughter would not immediately be the heir. If he were to have a son, there would likely be people wanting the prince to become the king when his father died but Bran being infertile eliminates this issue from the get-go. It'll be an issue in future generations I'm sure but while they're rebuilding a new and better world this rules out a possible future war.
- Democracy in Westeros could never work because of how big it is but in the Iron Islands or in The Nights Watch it works because it's a smaller group of people who genuinely do all have the same interests. Sam bringing that up was perfect but idk why Yara didn't agree with him but say exactly what I just said tbh. A Westeros-wide vote for whether the crown should spend more money on healthcare vs more money on agriculture would f*** them up instantly. The Iron Islands would want more/better food because they can't grow their own yet live a relatively peaceful lifestyle, whereas Dorne would be the opposite as whilst they have heaps of land for crops they're a former-Kingdom all about fighting and sex eg wounds and diseases.
- The Dothraki forgetting their Khal/Khaleesi rule was very convenient but I'm glad they didn't decide to follow Jon because oh shit theres another war Unsullied vs Dothraki and if the Dothraki won/Jon died they'd slaughter Kings Landing all over again.
- If Bran had warned people of Dany's descent into madness then they would have prevented her and therefore changed the future, which would mean that Bran had never seen that future before thus reversing anything he'd seen. Or there'd be another reality made where Dany still burns the city down. Idk time travel bullshit really see: Endgame
- Sam's been appointed to King's Landing as a maester laugh.gif The Lord Commander of the Nights Watch sent Sam to study to become a maester and then the head maester(?) has decided to send Sam to Kings Landing instead of The Wall. Likely because Bran requested him or even The Wall isn't an option for maesters at that point in time because it's run by freefolk.
- Last's weeks scene where Jaime and Cersei are crushed made it look like the whole building fell down on them. This week with Tyrion finding them in the rubble was just to be dramatic tbh. They either should have shown the whole floor covered in bricks or just had them crushed by a pillar or something. Unlucky Lannisters
- Grey Worm is ruthlessly devoted to Dany so I'm surprised he didn't kill Jon immediately, my only guess is that Jon confessed to his own men first maybe or a large group of them so Grey Worm chose not to murder Jon to stop his own people being killed straight up. A complete guess. Although with him killing Lannisters, that was on Dany's order rather than them following any 'rules'.
- Jon telling Sansa & Arya off screen was just to save us of hearing the same old story for a third time in the space of a week laugh.gif Euron knew Missandei was important to Dany because she was at the meeting at the Dragon Pitt. I imagine his #1 target was Grey Worm or Tyrion as higher up in her 'staff' but Missandei was easier to snatch.
- The writers were stupid to say she "kind of forgot about the iron fleet". She could have just not been expecting an attack so soon, or she thought they'd get to Dragonstone in time, but no they said that which no one can defend tbh.
- Dany's endgame has always been to take the Iron Throne through force really. She said it to the Dothraki right back in Season 1/2 and has said it countless more times since then. She locked away Rhaegal and Viserion because the dragons were getting too big to be allowed freeroam and were killing innocent children, she couldn't control them as teenage dragons so keeping them contained was an easier option. Jump to last week, she's lost everything and after seeing how easily King's Landing surrendered she realised that the people will never be loyal to her out of anything other than fear. A week after her taking the city another, larger army could rock up at the gates and the people would ring their bells and pledge loyalty to the invaders just so they don't die. She had enough of that and considered the people of the city an enemy to her just as much as Cersei. Twisted and sick but not out of character.
- Realistically she would've had Unsullied searching for Cersei/Euron/The Mountain but stopped to give her big tyrant speech before that. It's also possible she just assumed they were dead as she knew Cersei and The Mountain were in the Red Keep when she destroyed it.
- Jon's lineage is the main reason Dany went full Mad Queen? A man who is loved by literally everyone who also happens to be a Targarygen comes out of nowhere and everyone in the North claims him as their king with no backing down. Varys betraying Dany didn't really go anywhere, no, but Varys (and Littlefinger tbh) had to die for the next reign to be any different from say King Roberts. Arya's time training to become a Faceless Man was all for her to avenge her mother and brother, which she did. Her 'prophecy' given by Melisandre was basically rejected by Arya who chose her own life over Cersei's death. f*** knows where Bran went when the Night King was coming for him. I would've loved for some clarity there but whatever, I guess he was looking into the future at him becoming King during that time which we could've see bc it'd spoil the finale laugh.gif Bronn's arc ended in him choosing endless riches and a noble name over a bit less money and a bit less noble name. He was given Highgarden in exchange for Tyrions life and thus ending up as Bran's Master of Coin because he is head of the richest land in Westeros.
- Idk if the horse really meant anything, if she'd had killed Dany it could have been argued that the horse was some kind of incarnation of the Lord of Light bringing Arya back to life from the rubble to fulfill her destiny and kill the Queen. But nah that didn't happen, I guess a horse just walked into the city.
- Didn't Jon fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy by plunging his sword into his lovers heart? He was reborn literally by the Lord of Light (through Melisandre) who deemed he still had things to do in this world eg. defeat the Night King but also figuratively as he was reborn in the dust and tears of Kings Landing to defeat the Mad Queen. He had nothing but love and devotion to Dany, but then the bells rung and the city burned whilst he died inside watching the love of his life slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent people. The dust settles, Jon rises and realises (through Tyrion this time) that he must put an end to her reign of darkness (which can also be interpreted as a long night). If ASOIAF/GoT has taught us anything it's that prophecies and destinies aren't always fulfilled the way they were intended to / at all. Cersei was said to marry a King and have 3 children of golden hair whilst her King had 20 children, and she would outlive all 3 of them before being strangled by a younger brother. Tyrions love for his family and Jaimes love for Cersei meant this prophecy couldn't ever be fulfilled. That's not 'bad writing', that's the World of Ice and Fire not being written in stone by the gods (also there's so many different gods who have shown some active impact on the world who's to know The Seven isn't working against the Old Gods or the Lord Of Light to bring it's own prophecies to life by blocking others).
- The Night King ended up being a bit of a farce. A threat for sure but a Season 7 threat.
- Davos and Arya have plot armour made from graphene but they're two of my favourite characters so I don't mind tongue.gif
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Severin
post May 21 2019, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE(365 @ May 21 2019, 09:13 AM) *
The unsullied being sent off to start their own civilisation despite not being able to reproduce...They got duped!

That's quite literally NOT what happened. The Unsullied without their Queen and liberator had no reason to stay in Westeros to be ruled by a stranger. They then left willingly for Naarth to fulfill the promise Greyworm had made to Missandei only a few episodes back - that they would protect the people of Naarth (who were peaceful and unable to do so themselves).
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post May 21 2019, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE(365 @ May 21 2019, 09:13 AM) *
Erm, the ratings have been great, as usual, I don't know where you're getting that from. The last few episodes were the highest rated episodes ever. It's the critics, who have given in depth analyses of the episodes since season 1 who have given it mixed to bad reviews.

This "it didn't end the way you wanted to" defense is so unfounded, and none of the criticisms I've seen have looked that way in the slightest, and I think its hurt fans that can't take the criticism that are projecting that. It's about lazy writing and not fleshing out the plots the way they used to. Nobody is moaning for moaning's sake. Everyone was excited for the season and many were let down, which is allowed. In fact, it has had more plot holes than Game of Thrones ever had. So I think if you're able to say how much you liked it, others should be allowed without being patronised about it.

Anyway, I've properly watched the finale now, and I enjoyed it a lot more than the past couple of episodes, and overall, I'm pretty happy with how things were tied up. Once you got past Dany's drastic and jarring transformation over two episodes from who she'd been for 7 seasons, I found it a really exciting way to open the episode. In fact I wish we'd had more time with Dany as the evil queen, because it was a really interesting dynamic and made for a very haunting and dark vibe to the episode. Dany's death scene I found to be genuinely moving, and I was really pleased Drogon got his moment before flying off to eat Dany in peace.

Bran as king is...underwhelming, but I can't really see who else it could be, so it doesn't massively offend me. Some of the moments of closure were really beautiful though, Arya saying goodbye to Jon, Sansa finally having a crown and Brienne writing in Jaime's obituary at the end all made me shed a tear. Tyrion was utterly useless until the very end though, Drogon should have had him for supper 2 seasons ago.

The unsullied being sent off to start their own civilisation despite not being able to reproduce...They got duped!

So yeah, despite the flaws of the season overall, the finale could have been a lot worse. It dragged in places and could have done with a bit more excitement in its second half but there was a lot to tie up so I think they did well with what they had.


Exactly. My disappointment isn't invalid because others were happy with it. It's all subjective.

The finale was fine — not the epic ending I would have expected a year or two ago but not a disaster. I'm not mad at where the characters ended up, but the rushed and inconsistent journey getting them there was nothing but disappointing. Moments that would have been major in earlier seasons weren't given the time to breathe, etc. There isn't much else to say that hasn't been said elsewhere.
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365
post May 21 2019, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(Severin @ May 21 2019, 01:23 PM) *
That's quite literally NOT what happened. The Unsullied without their Queen and liberator had no reason to stay in Westeros to be ruled by a stranger. They then left willingly for Naarth to fulfill the promise Greyworm had made to Missandei only a few episodes back - that they would protect the people of Naarth (who were peaceful and unable to do so themselves).


Oh it wasn't that deep.
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post May 21 2019, 12:37 PM
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I don’t really get the argument that Jon being a Tygarean was pointless as it plays such a big part in the season? I keep seeing it everywhere amongst some actual valid points but his heritage is certainly not pointless. It leads to Dany’s aids removing their loyalty, it contributes to the Mad Queen, it drives that further wedge between Ayra & Sansa (therefore the North) and Dany. It shows that there is an alternative to Dany being Queen.

A lot of the people saying it was pointless are the same who would be groaning at Jon being on the throne because it would be too predictable.
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post May 21 2019, 01:02 PM
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Further to that, if there actually was anything special about Targaryen blood, then it would be very irresponsible to ultimately let it back on the throne once the first Targ to get back on the throne in years immediately outdoes her father in style. When Tyrion talked about king's sons, I think he was half referring to Targaryens there. The other part of it would have just been the corrupting influence of being born into ultimate power, Joffrey-style.

so why Jon shouldn't take the throne. Even if they at their meeting decided that it would be an election, the presence of the "legitimate heir" would muddy that appearance.
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post May 21 2019, 01:39 PM
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The only reason why the Northerners didn't fight for Jon not being outlawed and becoming king is because that would have required another war and another season lol and it's just convenient for the writers to go "Bran is harmless lets make him king" and everyone being like "aight" despite knowing literally nothing about the kid other than Tyrion, the person on trial, sayin he has a GOOD STORY lmao wth. That's why Jon's lineage ultimately doesn't really matter because nobody seemed to actually care in the long run other than Dany. They were all willing to betray Dany for him but then once she's dead at his hands they're like "ok w/e f*** off to the non-existent Night's Watch Jon" and sure Dany losing it was aided by this information but the breaking point was very obviously losing Jorah, Missandei and Rhaegal, especially since she was still close to Jon after burning down King's Landing and trusted him enough to be betrayed when he stabbed her so it seems she was destined to lose it either way.
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post May 21 2019, 02:39 PM
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(Can't quote too many so the replies are in order for each point)

QUOTE(Dexton @ May 21 2019, 12:19 PM) *
- Democracy in Westeros could never work because of how big it is but in the Iron Islands or in The Nights Watch it works because it's a smaller group of people who genuinely do all have the same interests. Sam bringing that up was perfect but idk why Yara didn't agree with him but say exactly what I just said tbh. A Westeros-wide vote for whether the crown should spend more money on healthcare vs more money on agriculture would f*** them up instantly. The Iron Islands would want more/better food because they can't grow their own yet live a relatively peaceful lifestyle, whereas Dorne would be the opposite as whilst they have heaps of land for crops they're a former-Kingdom all about fighting and sex eg wounds and diseases.

- The Dothraki forgetting their Khal/Khaleesi rule was very convenient but I'm glad they didn't decide to follow Jon because oh shit theres another war Unsullied vs Dothraki and if the Dothraki won/Jon died they'd slaughter Kings Landing all over again.

- If Bran had warned people of Dany's descent into madness then they would have prevented her and therefore changed the future, which would mean that Bran had never seen that future before thus reversing anything he'd seen. Or there'd be another reality made where Dany still burns the city down. Idk time travel bullshit really see: Endgame


I'm not arguing whether democracy would be a good idea or not. I'm commenting on the fact that Yara finding the idea funny/stupid/whatever is weird given that's how she became queen of the Iron Islands lmao. That's sloppy writing.

Again, sloppy writing is the main point here. It's not a question of whether I'd prefer them to forget about it or not. it's the fact that they shouldn't have.

What's the use of knowing the future if you're not going to impact it in any way? Especially if it saves the lives of 1mil people lol. If he doesn't use his power in that manner he's obviously a terrible choice for the ruler of the realm.

QUOTE(Dexton @ May 21 2019, 12:19 PM) *
- Sam's been appointed to King's Landing as a maester laugh.gif The Lord Commander of the Nights Watch sent Sam to study to become a maester and then the head maester(?) has decided to send Sam to Kings Landing instead of The Wall. Likely because Bran requested him or even The Wall isn't an option for maesters at that point in time because it's run by freefolk.

- Last's weeks scene where Jaime and Cersei are crushed made it look like the whole building fell down on them. This week with Tyrion finding them in the rubble was just to be dramatic tbh. They either should have shown the whole floor covered in bricks or just had them crushed by a pillar or something. Unlucky Lannisters

- Grey Worm is ruthlessly devoted to Dany so I'm surprised he didn't kill Jon immediately, my only guess is that Jon confessed to his own men first maybe or a large group of them so Grey Worm chose not to murder Jon to stop his own people being killed straight up. A complete guess. Although with him killing Lannisters, that was on Dany's order rather than them following any 'rules'.

Again AFAIK this is all speculation. Previous seasons wouldn't leave all this for speculation, we would have been shown this or somebody would have explained it because otherwise it doesn't really make sense, so not clarifying wtf Sam is doing outside of the Wall is sloppy writing.

Whether it's made to be dramatic or not it's still sloppy writing because the two scenes don't match. If this was a rare continuity error it'd be easy to gloss over but it's not.

Again, leaving important stuff like this to speculation is silly for a show that has explained so many seemingly unimportant things in the past that have proven to matter in the grand scheme of things. Finding out the aftermath of Jon murdering the queen is a ridiculous thing to skip when we had a 10 minute conversation between Jon and Tyrion earlier in the episode.
QUOTE(Dexton @ May 21 2019, 12:19 PM) *
- Jon telling Sansa & Arya off screen was just to save us of hearing the same old story for a third time in the space of a week laugh.gif

- Euron knew Missandei was important to Dany because she was at the meeting at the Dragon Pitt. I imagine his #1 target was Grey Worm or Tyrion as higher up in her 'staff' but Missandei was easier to snatch.

- The writers were stupid to say she "kind of forgot about the iron fleet". She could have just not been expecting an attack so soon, or she thought they'd get to Dragonstone in time, but no they said that which no one can defend tbh.

Seeing how Sansa and Arya react is obviously important because it could have hinted at Sansa going back on her word. Same with Sansa telling Tyrion. But instead we just got a supercut of gossip spreading like wildfire which looked more like it belonged in 90210 than in Game of Thrones. We've had numerous things repeated many many times throughout the show and obviously a revelation like this is important. It's just so cheesy to have the "I have to tell you something" and then cutting away in a show like GOT.

Again, leaving something like this for speculation is ridiculous. Just because she was at the meeting (along with so many other people) does not mean she's of important sentimental value. The Hound was there despite being of no importance to Dany. So were Brienne, Podrick, Theon, etc. Additionally Cersei seemed to know a lot about Missandei including the fact that she used to be a slave despite obviously none of this being revealed at the meeting in the Dragonpit.

Yes, sloppy writing. Also why in the world did she split up her army to go to Dragonstone in the first place? Did she forget her phone there or something? Why didn't she travel with the rest of the army down the Kingsroad?
QUOTE(Dexton @ May 21 2019, 12:19 PM) *
- Dany's endgame has always been to take the Iron Throne through force really. She said it to the Dothraki right back in Season 1/2 and has said it countless more times since then. She locked away Rhaegal and Viserion because the dragons were getting too big to be allowed freeroam and were killing innocent children, she couldn't control them as teenage dragons so keeping them contained was an easier option. Jump to last week, she's lost everything and after seeing how easily King's Landing surrendered she realised that the people will never be loyal to her out of anything other than fear. A week after her taking the city another, larger army could rock up at the gates and the people would ring their bells and pledge loyalty to the invaders just so they don't die. She had enough of that and considered the people of the city an enemy to her just as much as Cersei. Twisted and sick but not out of character.

- Realistically she would've had Unsullied searching for Cersei/Euron/The Mountain but stopped to give her big tyrant speech before that. It's also possible she just assumed they were dead as she knew Cersei and The Mountain were in the Red Keep when she destroyed it.

- Varys betraying Dany didn't really go anywhere, no, but Varys (and Littlefinger tbh) had to die for the next reign to be any different from say King Roberts. Arya's time training to become a Faceless Man was all for her to avenge her mother and brother, which she did. Her 'prophecy' given by Melisandre was basically rejected by Arya who chose her own life over Cersei's death. f*** knows where Bran went when the Night King was coming for him. I would've loved for some clarity there but whatever, I guess he was looking into the future at him becoming King during that time which we could've see bc it'd spoil the finale laugh.gif

Eh, I don't really buy that. Obviously this is never explained so this is just speculation yet again. If this was the reason she could have said it either in the speech to the Dothraki/Unsullied last ep or when justifying her actions to Jon but nope she did it just because she mad.

Yet another important thing left for speculation. I also don't think Daenerys would just assume the people who killed her dragon and best friend were dead and just be satisfied with that. Especially since the Red Keep is still half-standing.

Meh.
QUOTE(Dexton @ May 21 2019, 12:19 PM) *
- Bronn's arc ended in him choosing endless riches and a noble name over a bit less money and a bit less noble name. He was given Highgarden in exchange for Tyrions life and thus ending up as Bran's Master of Coin because he is head of the richest land in Westeros.

- Idk if the horse really meant anything, if she'd had killed Dany it could have been argued that the horse was some kind of incarnation of the Lord of Light bringing Arya back to life from the rubble to fulfill her destiny and kill the Queen. But nah that didn't happen, I guess a horse just walked into the city.

- The Night King ended up being a bit of a farce. A threat for sure but a Season 7 threat.

- Davos and Arya have plot armour made from graphene but they're two of my favourite characters so I don't mind tongue.gif

Him walking into Winterfell with a huge ass crossbow, managing to find Jaime and Tyrion coincidentally sitting together in an entirely empty bar is just hilariously bad comic book villain writing. What should have stopped them from letting guards or just anyone with a weapon know who he is and his allegiance right after he left the room? It made literally no sense and there was really no reason for Tyrion (and the Queen/King) to actually keep his promise to Bronn. Yes I know "Lannisters pay their debts" but lol he's the last living Lannister, who actually cares if he pays his debts to someone who tried to kill him?

A horse with plot armor feels like it should mean anything. I guess it didn't mean anything but why show that scene then? Lmao.

His war literally took one episode and he only killed about 50% of their armies (even though it was pretty obvious that at the end of E3 only about 5% was left alive but w/e) so idk he wasn't really a threat. He was killed with one dagger from someone who appeared out of nowhere managing to somehow get past the thousands of wights surrounding him. Not that big of a threat.

GRRM once said that he doesn't like putting characters in impossible scenarios where plot armour matters. He either kills them or refrains from putting them in impossible scenarios. D&D should really listen to GRRM on this matter.
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post May 21 2019, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE(365 @ May 21 2019, 09:13 AM) *
Erm, the ratings have been great, as usual, I don't know where you're getting that from. The last few episodes were the highest rated episodes ever. It's the critics, who have given in depth analyses of the episodes since season 1 who have given it mixed to bad reviews.

This "it didn't end the way you wanted to" defense is so unfounded, and none of the criticisms I've seen have looked that way in the slightest, and I think its hurt fans that can't take the criticism that are projecting that. It's about lazy writing and not fleshing out the plots the way they used to. Nobody is moaning for moaning's sake. Everyone was excited for the season and many were let down, which is allowed. In fact, it has had more plot holes than Game of Thrones ever had. So I think if you're able to say how much you liked it, others should be allowed without being patronised about it.

Anyway, I've properly watched the finale now, and I enjoyed it a lot more than the past couple of episodes, and overall, I'm pretty happy with how things were tied up. Once you got past Dany's drastic and jarring transformation over two episodes from who she'd been for 7 seasons, I found it a really exciting way to open the episode. In fact I wish we'd had more time with Dany as the evil queen, because it was a really interesting dynamic and made for a very haunting and dark set up. Dany's death scene I found to be genuinely moving, and I was really pleased Drogon got his moment before flying off to eat Dany in peace.

Bran as king is...underwhelming, but I can't really see who else it could be, so it doesn't massively offend me. Some of the moments of closure were really beautiful though, Arya saying goodbye to Jon, Sansa finally having a crown and Brienne writing in Jaime's obituary at the end all made me shed a tear. Tyrion was utterly useless until the very end though, Drogon should have had him for supper 2 seasons ago.

The unsullied being sent off to start their own civilisation despite not being able to reproduce...They got duped!

So yeah, despite the flaws of the season overall, the finale could have been a lot worse. It dragged in places and could have done with a bit more excitement in its second half but there was a lot to tie up so I think they did well with what they had.


I know it's had huge ratings, it's the biggest ever show on Social Media. My point was more with IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes. I have been watching this show since April 2011, it only ever really become absolutely gigantic after the Red Wedding. And then every season it's grow leaps and bounds. My issue is that like Breaking Bad, so many people binged the show and they have only really been following it for a few years. Many people found episodes 1 and 2 boring because nothing happened. If we had 2 more seasons, we'd have the same arguments just in a different format. I think if we look back at all the really big shows that have had final seasons or endings which have been controversial, the only one I think that people have liked is Breaking Bad. I think this season will be looked upon more fondly in the future.

People are right to criticise the show, it did move at lightning speed, but for people clamoring that it should have gone on for 2-3 full seasons.. I can understand why D&D want to move on to different projects. I remember even the shorter seasons before the budget way massively increased used to take 10 months of their lives, then that only increased as the scale grew. Pretty sure most of the cast were signed to 8 year contracts too and were negotiating season by season for the end.
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Popchartfreak
post May 21 2019, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 19 2019, 05:19 PM) *
The people decide letting rulers govern them is a very bad idea indeed and set up a democratic representative parliament? That would be SO fab, none of them get an Iron Throne laugh.gif


This wasn't a spoiler. I had no idea what had been suggested, this was me speculating. Half-right....
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Popchartfreak
post May 21 2019, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE(Iz~ @ May 20 2019, 11:36 AM) *
Second-BEST episode of the season, after episode 2.

Hold on, how is it really good when characters we don't like and find boring get elevated to the top? Because throughout this single episode, everything made sense. I didn't have to handwave any actions or explain anything away, it truly feels that no matter the shortened seasons, this was the finale we were always going to get. GRRM must have drafted the events that happened here in quite some detail.

Simple example of why I feel that way can be summed up in the small council scene. That single scene made me realise how much I'd missed the true political intrigue of GoT, when words were weapons, and the actual weapons were sheathed. Bronn and Davos aren't antagonists right now, and their banter is much more friendly than previous small councils doing similar things, but that's what I got into this show for, the clever running of the kingdoms. The reintroduction of minor figures like Edmure Tully and even just an extra playing the new Dorne lord, it made the world feel bigger again. And for what it's worth, I'm so happy that characters like Davos and Brienne ended up where they did, they deserved to survive the war - Brienne writing out Jaime's deeds got me going a little.

And the final solution, to turn the kingdoms into an elective monarchy, makes a whole lot of sense for their society and country, which has been for too long essentially seven vassal kings under a disliked central monarch, ripe for intrigue. Especially in the show's timeframe, when one of those seven has elevated themselves, it makes it unstable as all of the lords begin to see themselves as potentially the next king (or otherwise gaining power) if they use violence to get there. But at that meeting, if they'd suggested anyone other than Bran, I guarantee it would have descended into infighting. The Vale lords, Yara, they were ready to fight. To say nothing of Sansa. If Bran can't father children, he's the best choice to start off this new regime, a figurehead more than a family. Made even better by his family declaring independence and therefore no longer being involved.

Who's to say how long this system will hold, but after all the talk about how Targaryens are born and the gods flip a coin, is the show really going to end by putting one of them back on the throne? No, and it's only by watching this episode did I realise, after Jon's talk with Tyrion, before he killed Dany, that he was never going to take the throne. It would just be about recreating a tyranny, if not through Jon himself, then perhaps his son. I reckon the new regime will be far more stable.

There were a couple of moments I really like, the fear that was palpable as Dany announced her new regime, it just looked and sounded so evil in contrast to what she was saying. That was all I needed to get an idea of it, and despite that Jon didn't find it easy. The other moment was Drogon destroying the Iron Throne after he realised that it was that obsession that caused his mother's death. Dragons aren't stupid.

It brought a lasting change, it resonated with me, they did a good job showing the kingdom go back to normality, I'm happy with that. And rather importantly, I can think of very few loose ends they didn't touch on.

For the season overall:

Rushed, yes. Some plot holes, yes. Enjoyable to watch all the way through.... yes. Some things I wish they'd done include make minor plot changes to defeat the Night King in perhaps episode 5 as the Dany/Jon alliance moves south, maybe they come face to face with Cersei, maybe Missandei gets killed as Cersei plays the game, causing Dany to go fire-burning in the moment of victory against the dead. Would have made a bit better, yes. Made it a lot better, no.

So I do think that three seasons with 10 episodes with writing much closer to whatever the books and GRRM have in mind would have made this whole thing better, but I still very much enjoyed what happened. I also think time will be kind to this season, as people forget their unrealised theories, as they rewatch the whole thing. It may not have been the best we could have got, but it was good enough. I'm also sort of reminded of the Fullmetal Alchemist situation, one of the most popular manga ever, got an anime adaptation that made up an anime-original ending, still considered a great anime, but they made a more faithful adaptation under the subtitle Brotherhood 6 years later. No, a Brotherhood isn't coming for GoT, but we're getting spinoffs and that will keep the fans happy as they get a bit of a reboot.

And that is it for Game Of Thrones, wow. It will go down as one of the best television series of all time, seasons 1-4 especially, but the latter half I do think will be more appreciated with time.

also, btw, if anyone wanted more to be done with the White Walkers, Attack On Titan right now is giving me personally everything I could ever want, whole seasons in fact, about unstoppable monsters breaking past a huge wall to destroy humanity with pluses of political intrigue and massive spoilers about everything in the series... so if that part of GoT appeals to you, the twists, people dying, destruction of humanity etc go watch that.


Great review Iz, pretty much agree. It had to be the ending. The bit about Jon having kids and back to square one is very true, and something I hadnt considered. A sort of democracy is the appropriate answer after years of mass bloodshed from power-mad ruthless or egotistical rich entitled inherited-arrogance leaders. I loved Sam getting laughed down at the idea of full democracy - yes they considered it!

Bran knew all the time. People get power who don't want it. The dragon destroys the throne but not Jon Snow, as he is also dragon-blood. Quite telling that. What happens with her body? Nobody finishes happy and in love, bar Sam (amongst the major cast) they end up with duties to perform for the betterment of the people. Funny touches, touching moments, the intro with the dark walk through the ruins was brilliant. We have no idea what happens or has happened abroad and how events have helped or damaged those kingdoms.

When I run my top 50 drama shows of all-time, this is right up there with my all-time other 2 faves - but this is plotted from beginning to end, the others are serials that evolve or have stand-alone shows.
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Popchartfreak
post May 21 2019, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE(dandy* @ May 21 2019, 01:04 PM) *
I didn't think Bran knew the future or maybe I've misunderstood? I thought he could only visit the past?


That's how I understood it. He Knows shitloads about the past and present, which means he can see through all lies and know what is right, but he's also wise because of it. The system set up is pretty workable as long as there can be no inherited power on the throne. Perfect ending given the implausibility of one man one vote in a feudal system.

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Jαsє
post May 21 2019, 09:55 PM
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Rotten Tomatoes ratings for each series

Season 1 - 91%
Season 2 - 96%
Season 3 - 96%
Season 4 - 97%
Season 5 - 93%
Season 6 - 94%
Season 7 - 93%
Season 8 - 67%

S4 rightfully being the highest wub.gif
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Severin
post May 21 2019, 11:11 PM
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QUOTE(365 @ May 21 2019, 01:32 PM) *
Oh it wasn't that deep.

Lol. Seriously, that isn't deep at all, but it was well sign posted.
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Jαsє
post May 21 2019, 11:23 PM
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https://twitter.com/nightkingstan/status/1130548698067419137

rotf.gif
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Seinfeld
post May 22 2019, 02:00 AM
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Is anyone here a marine biologist?
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laugh.gif
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dandy*
post May 22 2019, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE(Severin @ May 22 2019, 12:11 AM) *
Lol. Seriously, that isn't deep at all, but it was well sign posted.

Have to agree with you - Greyworm did say in the episode that they were heading to Naath and there was lots of talk around in previous episodes between Missandei and him going there to protect the peaceful folk.
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365
post May 23 2019, 03:11 PM
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No, I meant as in I was kidding, ha.
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365
post May 23 2019, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE(Jαsє @ May 22 2019, 12:23 AM) *


This is genuinely hilarious.
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