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 The Middle East Today |
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 28th July 2014, 07:34 PM
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#61
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 DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480 
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Funny how rare it was they had that reaction until Israel started disengaging. This isn't ordinary Palestinians, it's Hamas.
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28th July 2014, 07:37 PM
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#62
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
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Do you also not realise how contradictory your stance on this is considering that (iirc) you wanted the Ukrainian rebels to succeed and were appalled at Russia's actions? The Ukrainian rebels have done nothing different to what Hamas do ("one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" yada yada yada), and it is quite easy for Russia to make the same kind of bullshit argument that Israel makes, that these rebels/so-called "terrorists" pose a threat to them and therefore they have the right to do whatever they want to supposedly "defend themselves".
This post has been edited by Danny: 28th July 2014, 07:39 PM |
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28th July 2014, 07:39 PM
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#63
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jul 28 2014, 08:32 PM)  Do you also not realise how contradictory your stance on this is considering that (iirc) you wanted the Ukrainian rebels to succeed and were appalled at Russia's actions? The Ukrainian rebels have done nothing different to what Hamas do ("one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" yada yada yada), and it is quite easy for Russia to make the same kind of bullshit argument that Israel makes, that these rebels/so-called "terrorists" pose a threat to them and therefore they have the right to do whatever they want. Eh? Last time I checked, those protesting against Yanukovych weren't firing rockets into Russia. They weren't digging tunnels into Russia to kidnap Russian citizens. They were protesting peacefully against a president, who then reacted to that by setting armed police on them. The mirror image would be Palestinians protesting against Abbas and Israel intervening and occupying the Gaza Strip as a result. |
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28th July 2014, 07:41 PM
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#64
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DROTTNING!
Joined: 15 April 2006
Posts: 63,953 User: 480
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QUOTE(Danny @ Jul 28 2014, 08:32 PM) If you were a Palestinian, what reaction would you have if a government was keeping you in a prison camp, not giving you basic resources, constantly wrecking your neighbourhoods and killing your friends and family? This still doesn't answer the question of exactly how peace is realistically supposed to come about when Hamas work to make every Israeli action to move towards it look counterproductive. If a government oppressing me made moves towards conciliation and peace, I wouldn't throw it back in their faces at each opportunity if I wanted peace. Hamas do not want peace. |
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28th July 2014, 07:52 PM
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#65
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
Posts: 4,259 User: 457
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 28 2014, 08:39 PM) Eh? Last time I checked, those protesting against Yanukovych weren't firing rockets into Russia. They weren't digging tunnels into Russia to kidnap Russian citizens. They were protesting peacefully against a president, who then reacted to that by setting armed police on them. The mirror image would be Palestinians protesting against Abbas and Israel intervening and occupying the Gaza Strip as a result. But they did kill Ukrainian civilians. My point was that rebels fighting against an unfair status quo, and terrorism, are two sides of the same coin. |
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28th July 2014, 08:20 PM
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#66
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,790 User: 3,272
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 28 2014, 07:32 PM) Which I presume is already being done. My point was more to illustrate that Hamas don't act in good faith at any step of the way during the peace process though, and this works to make peace even more unlikely. If you were an Israeli citizen, what reaction would you have if your government even tried to reach out a hand given Hamas are trying to exploit absolutely every concession they get from the Israelis? What concessions? They are still building illegal settlements in the occupied territories. They still have total control over Gaza. The more belligerent Israel are, the more support for Hamas grows. |
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28th July 2014, 09:26 PM
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#67
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 BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 18 July 2012
Posts: 23,043 User: 17,376
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QUOTE(Cassandra @ Jul 28 2014, 07:32 PM) Which I presume is already being done. My point was more to illustrate that Hamas don't act in good faith at any step of the way during the peace process though, and this works to make peace even more unlikely. If you were an Israeli citizen, what reaction would you have if your government even tried to reach out a hand given Hamas are trying to exploit absolutely every concession they get from the Israelis? One might have said the same about the IRA and the British Government. Some of us are old enough to have lived through decades of bombings and murders in our own country, and still carry out a dialogue with the organisation responsible. Point being, peace is the only way forward, and talking is the only long-term solution short of attempted genocide. Which, I believe, the Jewish people have been on the receiving end of, and it wasn't Muslims who tried to carry that out. One would imagine they might have some degree of sympathy for a downtrodden people the majority of whom aren't actually members of a terrorist organisation. Presumably peace is what Jesus (who seems to be quite admired in rather a lot of religions originating from that area) would have been in favour of. I wonder if anyone's ever pointed that out to all concerned? Apparently not... |
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14th May 2021, 09:36 AM
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#68
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 25 July 2016
Posts: 4,386 User: 23,471
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Am I missing a thread or has there been no discussion about Israel and Palestine since 2014?
I don't know where to even start with what is happening right now. |
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14th May 2021, 10:16 AM
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#69
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 21 February 2021
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Guess it's not been so bad between 2014 and now where things are really quite scary. During a deadly pandemic as well.
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14th May 2021, 11:50 AM
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#70
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
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Oh my yes, it's so sad what's happening right now there
(There may have been discussion about happenings in other threads - we had one for Soleimeni's assassination but outside of the similarly awful and horrendously ignored situation in Yemen, it has been relatively quiet since the height of ISIL) In that there is only one side with the power to end it, only one side that's had the upper hand and has nearly 2 million people in a glorified open-air concentration camp, and that's the IDF. |
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15th May 2021, 12:42 PM
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#71
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
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Israel has just levelled the press offices in Gaza, where Al-Jazeera and the BBC report from, amongst others. Will be interesting to see how they report on a direct attack on their activities.
I wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu is going to take this opportunity to just unilaterally declare more of the Palestinian territories annexed. |
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15th May 2021, 01:24 PM
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#72
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,243 User: 3,474
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The Israelis are committing war crimes.
For too long the US has propped up a hyper aggressive genocidal regime. The government of Israel are a major threat to global security and must be removed. Preferably to a jail cell at The Hague. Very carefully wording this as Israel’s gov. Because there seems to be a determination by the Israeli state to crush any and all criticism of it as anti-semitism. And while yes there’s defo antisemites leaping into the debate on the side of the Palestinians and hijacking it, that does not mean that all critique is antisemetic nor that it is antisemetic to point out the regime is committing war crimes. |
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15th May 2021, 03:06 PM
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#73
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 25 July 2016
Posts: 4,386 User: 23,471
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QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ May 15 2021, 12:42 PM) Israel has just levelled the press offices in Gaza, where Al-Jazeera and the BBC report from, amongst others. Will be interesting to see how they report on a direct attack on their activities. I wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu is going to take this opportunity to just unilaterally declare more of the Palestinian territories annexed. I won’t be expecting any press solidarity today. |
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15th May 2021, 03:08 PM
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#74
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 46,489 User: 5,138
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Yeh was gonna say are we allowed to be critical or Israel or are we being anti-Semitic?
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15th May 2021, 03:23 PM
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#75
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,559 User: 12,929 |
QUOTE(steve201 @ May 15 2021, 03:08 PM) Yeh was gonna say are we allowed to be critical or Israel or are we being anti-Semitic? As long as you do not conflate the actions and desires of the state of Israel with Jewish people, I would not say so. Make sure when you speak on this, you are getting your information from a variety of sources, what I've read about it, I've read media from different sources, listened what to a number of people have said, some of whom are Jewish themselves. There has been an effort within Israel to create this siege mentality of being under attack, there are right-wing extremist groups within Israel, perhaps not encouraged by the government but not discouraged either, who would happily see Palestinians bombed back to the stone age and sent out of the country, I've seen studies that suggest a majority of young Israelis are right-wing, Netanyahu-supporting, and consider their ethnic group standing against the outside world, I really fear for the future of that country and I would call it an apartheid state the way it treats its Arabic communities and the Palestinians right now. Very aware that while some political figures in countries will condemn the violence on both sides, Israel is the most disproportionately armed and well-funded military state relative to its size. It clearly has the advantage here, and the casualty numbers on each side unfortunately are reflecting that. |
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15th May 2021, 03:43 PM
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#76
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 46,489 User: 5,138
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Yeh I’ve never met a Jewish person to my knowledge but I don’t get why anyone would judge anyone by their religion anyway and I’m from N.Ire lol. I just don’t get it. But I do get why people hate Israel as it’s due to its actions and how it’s country was formed.
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15th May 2021, 03:45 PM
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#77
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thanks for being a sarcy lil bitch
Joined: 25 September 2007
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I constantly hear from my partner about bomb sounds and sirens and having to go hide several times a day as he lives between TLV and Gaza so it’s difficult for me to stay unbiased here. He doesn’t even like the Israeli government and totally thinks this is their fault. However, the violence is just out of control at this point.
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15th May 2021, 04:16 PM
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#78
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Shakin Stevens
Joined: 29 December 2007
Posts: 46,489 User: 5,138
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That’s the thing the government doesn’t even represent the views of all the people but it’s hard to not take sides I guess when it’s all around you.
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15th May 2021, 04:30 PM
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#79
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 25 July 2016
Posts: 4,386 User: 23,471
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QUOTE(Iz �� @ May 15 2021, 03:23 PM) As long as you do not conflate the actions and desires of the state of Israel with Jewish people, I would not say so. Make sure when you speak on this, you are getting your information from a variety of sources, what I've read about it, I've read media from different sources, listened what to a number of people have said, some of whom are Jewish themselves. There has been an effort within Israel to create this siege mentality of being under attack, there are right-wing extremist groups within Israel, perhaps not encouraged by the government but not discouraged either, who would happily see Palestinians bombed back to the stone age and sent out of the country, I've seen studies that suggest a majority of young Israelis are right-wing, Netanyahu-supporting, and consider their ethnic group standing against the outside world, I really fear for the future of that country and I would call it an apartheid state the way it treats its Arabic communities and the Palestinians right now. Very aware that while some political figures in countries will condemn the violence on both sides, Israel is the most disproportionately armed and well-funded military state relative to its size. It clearly has the advantage here, and the casualty numbers on each side unfortunately are reflecting that. This does tend to get twisted — especially by non-Jewish people who refuse to separate the two and speak on behalf of us, or those acting in bad faith from the right. There is unfortunately some truth to that study. Have you seen the way the IDF use social media like they're influencers? I'm not sure people realise the additional propaganda it takes to prepare all kids for military service — of course there is going to be misplaced pride and a feeling of duty to serve when Israel is taught to be so important to Jewish identity. I'm just really glad my parents moved abroad before I was born. I have also found left-wing Jewish voices in Israel (and elsewhere) are purposefully ignored, silenced, ridiculed, and there is a definite fear of speaking out or going against the status quo. I mean, look at how left-wing British Jews have been made to feel over the past few years. It's really heinous. This post has been edited by blacksquare: 16th May 2021, 10:01 AM |
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16th May 2021, 10:46 AM
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#80
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 21 February 2021
Posts: 3,710 User: 124,514
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Well Biden has tweeted unconditional support of Israel's actions so guess that's that then in terms of any actions on the International stage and more dead Palestinians.
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