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> Meat Loaf is back from hell!
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PaulM1983
post Mar 6 2012, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE(robgomm @ Mar 6 2012, 05:09 PM) *
I don't agree with that at all. For one thing the music industry is dying a slow death anyway so I wouldn't expect there to be as many sales. I also believe a big factor will have been the staggered worldwide release. As it was available in Australia since October that must have had a large impact on sales everywhere. For one reason people would have bought an import copy which wouldn't have counted towards sales here. And for a second thing and probably more likely, piracy. People aren't going to wait 4-5 months for an album that was already released elsewhere. They're going to download it. And once they've got it then it's a question of how decent people are. Will they buy the release properly when it comes out over here? I think we can see these factors have had a huge impact and it would be naive to think otherwise.


I think it's admirable that you feel that way, but the fact is Meat's record sales have been in steady decline for many years. You can't get around that, and you can't really gloss over that with any kind of justification. And this is coming from a fan remember! I've seen him live and I own pretty much everything he's ever recorded. I love the man.

Even if you consider that perhaps 10,000 people in the UK illegally downloaded or bought an import copy of the album before its release, this still doesn't convert to a stellar start to the album campaign. And more to the point, I firmly believe there is no way on this earth that many people went out of their way to get the album before last week. Further to this, I think it's highly likely that the album will completely disappear within a couple of weeks. I seriously doubt that it will add another 15,000 to it's total sales.

You only have to look at the sales of some of the biggest albums in the last few years to know that the music industry is not dying a slow death. That statement is somewhat silly. People will buy records if they want them. The sales figures just suggest that not as many people want Meat's records as they used to. The Bat trilogy is a masterpiece in my opinion, but even I can see that the vast majority of people couldn't name one other Meat Loaf album if you paid them a million pounds. His presence, especially in the UK, is just not what it used to be. But listen, he's been doing this for a hell of a long time, and it couldn't last forever. If he wants to continue putting out albums, without worrying about commercial success, I'll remain interested.

My statement that his best days, in terms of commercial success, are behind him, was based on fact. It doesn't intimate that I'm not a fan anymore.


This post has been edited by PaulM1983: Mar 6 2012, 10:52 PM
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robgomm
post Mar 7 2012, 08:02 AM
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QUOTE(¿ CHARLIE ? @ Mar 6 2012, 08:17 PM) *
What evidence do you have for this?


The evidence comes out every year mate. Just listen to the news. Every year they come out and say music sales are down.

With the exception of phenomenoms (however you spell it) like Adele or Lady Gaga people sell very little. In the UK Lady Gaga only sold 1.2m copies of her album The Fame and yet she's considered one of the biggest stars of all time now. Meat Loafs Bat Out Of Hell sold 2.1m in the UK. Lady Gaga is arguably more mainstream and popular so surely she should have sold more if the music industry is the same now as it was then?

People aren't buying as many full albums any more because they can just digitally purchase individual songs. Piracy seems to be a huge drain, youtube is a problem. If someone puts up a song on youtube it's very easy to rip the audio from it and then you've got yourself a pirated single. Singles do absolutely nothing anymore, so much so that people are starting to release singles for free and only digitally as it's not worth the money to make a physical CD anymore. Need I go on?
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robgomm
post Mar 7 2012, 08:08 AM
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QUOTE(PaulM1983 @ Mar 6 2012, 10:48 PM) *
I think it's admirable that you feel that way, but the fact is Meat's record sales have been in steady decline for many years. You can't get around that, and you can't really gloss over that with any kind of justification. And this is coming from a fan remember! I've seen him live and I own pretty much everything he's ever recorded. I love the man.

Even if you consider that perhaps 10,000 people in the UK illegally downloaded or bought an import copy of the album before its release, this still doesn't convert to a stellar start to the album campaign. And more to the point, I firmly believe there is no way on this earth that many people went out of their way to get the album before last week. Further to this, I think it's highly likely that the album will completely disappear within a couple of weeks. I seriously doubt that it will add another 15,000 to it's total sales.

You only have to look at the sales of some of the biggest albums in the last few years to know that the music industry is not dying a slow death. That statement is somewhat silly. People will buy records if they want them. The sales figures just suggest that not as many people want Meat's records as they used to. The Bat trilogy is a masterpiece in my opinion, but even I can see that the vast majority of people couldn't name one other Meat Loaf album if you paid them a million pounds. His presence, especially in the UK, is just not what it used to be. But listen, he's been doing this for a hell of a long time, and it couldn't last forever. If he wants to continue putting out albums, without worrying about commercial success, I'll remain interested.

My statement that his best days, in terms of commercial success, are behind him, was based on fact. It doesn't intimate that I'm not a fan anymore.


I never inferred you weren't a fan, I just don't agree with your analysis. As I stated in my post above it is a fact that year on year I hear on the news that music sales have dipped. There will always be exceptions (whoever the latest popular person is e.g. Gaga or Adele) but on the whole it's dying. There's no getting away from the fact that the digital age and the internet on the whole has had a huge impact on this. More music is being bought digitally, but not necessarily full albums.
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PaulM1983
post Mar 7 2012, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE(robgomm @ Mar 7 2012, 08:02 AM) *
The evidence comes out every year mate. Just listen to the news. Every year they come out and say music sales are down.

With the exception of phenomenoms (however you spell it) like Adele or Lady Gaga people sell very little. In the UK Lady Gaga only sold 1.2m copies of her album The Fame and yet she's considered one of the biggest stars of all time now. Meat Loafs Bat Out Of Hell sold 2.1m in the UK. Lady Gaga is arguably more mainstream and popular so surely she should have sold more if the music industry is the same now as it was then?

People aren't buying as many full albums any more because they can just digitally purchase individual songs. Piracy seems to be a huge drain, youtube is a problem. If someone puts up a song on youtube it's very easy to rip the audio from it and then you've got yourself a pirated single. Singles do absolutely nothing anymore, so much so that people are starting to release singles for free and only digitally as it's not worth the money to make a physical CD anymore. Need I go on?


I don't agree with that. It's fairly misleading to pick one album out of each artist's catalogue to compare them. The Fame + The Fame Monster has sold nearly 3 million in the UK, but Gaga has also sold upwards of 6.5 million singles in the UK alone. So including all singles and albums, she's sitting on over 10 million sales in the UK. That's only in the space of 3 years. Meat has sold roughly the same amount over 30 years.

Yes people can get the songs for free if they want to. But yet, single sales are the highest they have been in years. More and more singles are selling a million copies than ever before. If people are willing to go and buy music from other artists, why aren't they doing it for Meat? My guess is it's because they're just not interested anymore.
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robgomm
post Mar 7 2012, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE(PaulM1983 @ Mar 7 2012, 08:28 AM) *
I don't agree with that. It's fairly misleading to pick one album out of each artist's catalogue to compare them. The Fame + The Fame Monster has sold nearly 3 million in the UK, but Gaga has also sold upwards of 6.5 million singles in the UK alone. So including all singles and albums, she's sitting on over 10 million sales in the UK. That's only in the space of 3 years. Meat has sold roughly the same amount over 30 years.

Yes people can get the songs for free if they want to. But yet, single sales are the highest they have been in years. More and more singles are selling a million copies than ever before. If people are willing to go and buy music from other artists, why aren't they doing it for Meat? My guess is it's because they're just not interested anymore.


That's why I said she was a phenomenom lol. I'm not comparing her to Meat overall. I'm saying she's an exception to the declining music sales overall.
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¿ BARBÁRICO ?
post Mar 7 2012, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE(robgomm @ Mar 7 2012, 08:02 AM) *
The evidence comes out every year mate. Just listen to the news. Every year they come out and say music sales are down.

With the exception of phenomenoms (however you spell it) like Adele or Lady Gaga people sell very little. In the UK Lady Gaga only sold 1.2m copies of her album The Fame and yet she's considered one of the biggest stars of all time now. Meat Loafs Bat Out Of Hell sold 2.1m in the UK. Lady Gaga is arguably more mainstream and popular so surely she should have sold more if the music industry is the same now as it was then?

People aren't buying as many full albums any more because they can just digitally purchase individual songs. Piracy seems to be a huge drain, youtube is a problem. If someone puts up a song on youtube it's very easy to rip the audio from it and then you've got yourself a pirated single. Singles do absolutely nothing anymore, so much so that people are starting to release singles for free and only digitally as it's not worth the money to make a physical CD anymore. Need I go on?


Well you got both parts of that "fact" wrong for a start. Plus Adele has entered the top 10 albums of ALL TIME with "21", that's hardly as you put it "selling very little".

You claim that "singles do absolutely nothing anymore", when in fact single sales are at an all time high. Internet promotion in any way, shape or form is still promotion and it still delivers sales. I think you need to pay a bit more attention to the world outside before you start flouting this misguided crap that the music industry is dying.
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PaulM1983
post Mar 7 2012, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE(robgomm @ Mar 7 2012, 08:32 AM) *
That's why I said she was a phenomenom lol. I'm not comparing her to Meat overall. I'm saying she's an exception to the declining music sales overall.


Well no, actually, you used incorrect figures in an attempt to argue that they prove the music industry is in decline. You say that if she was as big as she is claimed to be, she would have sold more than Meat. Fact is, she has sold more than him, in 10% of the time he has been selling records. So the initial arguement was factually inaccurate.

I'm just slightly confused as to why you see unable to accept that Meat's record sales in the UK are abysmal. You can sugarcoat it however you want, but the fact is only 16,000 people decided to buy his new album last week. That's not down to declining sales in general, it just means that only 16,000 wanted to buy it. For a man who is responsible an album with reported sales of 40 million worldwide, that's a staggering drop, but it's one that has been reflected in his previous few albums too, so it's hardly unexpected.
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robgomm
post Mar 7 2012, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE(¿ CHARLIE ? @ Mar 7 2012, 10:34 AM) *
Well you got both parts of that "fact" wrong for a start. Plus Adele has entered the top 10 albums of ALL TIME with "21", that's hardly as you put it "selling very little".

You claim that "singles do absolutely nothing anymore", when in fact single sales are at an all time high. Internet promotion in any way, shape or form is still promotion and it still delivers sales. I think you need to pay a bit more attention to the world outside before you start flouting this misguided crap that the music industry is dying.


Actually I think you need to read what I said. I said Adele is an exception to what is happening the music industry as a whole. It was probably a bad example for me to use Adele and Lady Gaga as examples however as they are mainstream, young and trendy popular acts. Meat loaf has always been niche. You either love him or hate him.

As for me not having the facts right don't make me laugh mate. Check the official BPI stats for sales. Lady Gaga has 3,500,000 career sales so far, FACT. The Fame is certified for 1,200,000, FACT. Bat Out Of Hell sold 2,100,000 certified, FACT. You CAN'T argue with facts from the official BPI.

Also FACT for you, in 2003 the music industry in the UK was worth £1.22bn, FACT. Year on year since this has fallen until last year the value in this industry had fallen to £795.4m, FACT. It is true digital sales have risen every year for a long time and this is as I said because people are buying individual songs they like, not albums. But they still aren't selling enough to make up for the declining physical sales.

I am in the record industry and it absolutely STAGGERS me that you would try to argue with me when the facts are behind me all the way. For you to deny these stats are true is like saying the War didn't happen or something truly ignorant like that.
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¿ BARBÁRICO ?
post Mar 7 2012, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE(robgomm @ Mar 7 2012, 04:38 PM) *
Actually I think you need to read what I said. I said Adele is an exception to what is happening the music industry as a whole. It was probably a bad example for me to use Adele and Lady Gaga as examples however as they are mainstream, young and trendy popular acts. Meat loaf has always been niche. You either love him or hate him.

As for me not having the facts right don't make me laugh mate. Check the official BPI stats for sales. Lady Gaga has 3,500,000 career sales so far, FACT. The Fame is certified for 1,200,000, FACT. Bat Out Of Hell sold 2,100,000 certified, FACT. You CAN'T argue with facts from the official BPI.

Also FACT for you, in 2003 the music industry in the UK was worth £1.22bn, FACT. Year on year since this has fallen until last year the value in this industry had fallen to £795.4m, FACT. It is true digital sales have risen every year for a long time and this is as I said because people are buying individual songs they like, not albums. But they still aren't selling enough to make up for the declining physical sales.

I am in the record industry and it absolutely STAGGERS me that you would try to argue with me when the facts are behind me all the way. For you to deny these stats are true is like saying the War didn't happen or something truly ignorant like that.


I'm going to break this one up so it's easier for both of us.

QUOTE
Actually I think you need to read what I said. I said Adele is an exception to what is happening the music industry as a whole. It was probably a bad example for me to use Adele and Lady Gaga as examples however as they are mainstream, young and trendy popular acts. Meat loaf has always been niche. You either love him or hate him.
Admittedly I misread your initial point about Adele, BUT your claim that she's a young and trendy act is a little wide of the mark. Her enormous sales have come about because she's the darling of the mainstream press and "21" has struck a chord with people 25 and over. It is however good of you to point out how poor an example it was for you to use.

QUOTE
As for me not having the facts right don't make me laugh mate. Check the official BPI stats for sales. Lady Gaga has 3,500,000 career sales so far, FACT. The Fame is certified for 1,200,000, FACT. Bat Out Of Hell sold 2,100,000 certified, FACT. You CAN'T argue with facts from the official BPI.

I can and will actually, the BPI is notoriously tardy when it comes to certifying records and if you were to check with our very own posters in Chart Chat - people who devote several hours a week into tracking sales given the data disclosed by the Official Charts Company - you'd find that "The Fame" has sold around 2.8 million copies in the UK. As for the apparent 2.3 million singles she's sold, the total of "Poker Face", "Bad Romance" and "Just Dance" is already around 2.9 million let alone all her other singles. Your 3.5 million "fact" is complete horseshit, sorry.

QUOTE
Also FACT for you, in 2003 the music industry in the UK was worth £1.22bn, FACT. Year on year since this has fallen until last year the value in this industry had fallen to £795.4m, FACT. It is true digital sales have risen every year for a long time and this is as I said because people are buying individual songs they like, not albums. But they still aren't selling enough to make up for the declining physical sales.
Regardless of whether those figures are correct, you never specified the UK music industry. The worldwide music industry is booming thanks to new markets opening up.

QUOTE
I am in the record industry and it absolutely STAGGERS me that you would try to argue with me when the facts are behind me all the way. For you to deny these stats are true is like saying the War didn't happen or something truly ignorant like that.

It staggers me that you've still got a job.
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robgomm
post Mar 7 2012, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE(¿ CHARLIE ? @ Mar 7 2012, 04:49 PM) *
I can and will actually, the BPI is notoriously tardy when it comes to certifying records and if you were to check with our very own posters in Chart Chat - people who devote several hours a week into tracking sales given the data disclosed by the Official Charts Company - you'd find that "The Fame" has sold around 2.8 million copies in the UK. As for the apparent 2.3 million singles she's sold, the total of "Poker Face", "Bad Romance" and "Just Dance" is already around 2.9 million let alone all her other singles. Your 3.5 million "fact" is complete horseshit, sorry.

Regardless of whether those figures are correct, you never specified the UK music industry. The worldwide music industry is booming thanks to new markets opening up.


LMAO so you choose to believe your OWN posters rather than an official company? Says it all really. For your interest I imagine the 2.8million etc. includes the amount shipped to the stores not the amount actually sold.

You have NO proof the world music industry is booming.

LMAO you are so full of self delusion and arrogance it's amazing, trying to argue with facts that are down in black and white and are irefutable. I don't think I will post here anymore as it's obvious you and your 'very own posters' are in a deluded world of your own.

Farewell moron.
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¿ BARBÁRICO ?
post Mar 7 2012, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE(robgomm @ Mar 7 2012, 05:18 PM) *
LMAO so you choose to believe your OWN posters rather than an official company? Says it all really. For your interest I imagine the 2.8million etc. includes the amount shipped to the stores not the amount actually sold.

You have NO proof the world music industry is booming.

LMAO you are so full of self delusion and arrogance it's amazing, trying to argue with facts that are down in black and white and are irefutable. I don't think I will post here anymore as it's obvious you and your 'very own posters' are in a deluded world of your own.

Farewell moron.


Why is it that ticket receipts for concerts are at an all time high then?

The facts are hardly irrefutable when they're disclosed by the Official Charts Company (the clue's in the name) and simply added up by a guy with a spreadsheet. It's not rocket science, if I had time I could list instances of the BPI being incredibly slow to award additional certifications for hours.
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PaulM1983
post Mar 7 2012, 06:24 PM
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Don't record companies have to pay for BPI certifications? They also have to actually submit the song/album for certification in the first place as far as I was aware, so basing an argument purely on what has been certified is pretty pointless. I will stand corrected if that is wrong though.

I am so confused as to how you are getting to those sales figures though robgomm, as Lady G's sales are widely publicised, and as Charlie has pointed out - 3 of her biggest hits have sold just under 3 million alone. Then she has Telephone, Born This Way, Edge of Glory and Alejandro, which have all sold 500,000 or thereabouts (Telephone and BTW are much higher now). I just cant understand why you are so adamant that she hasn't sold as many as she has. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Where you work is completely irrelevant, as you clearly don't have anything to do with either Lady Gaga or Meat Loaf, as you would see the holes in your own arguments a mile away.

Getting back to the main point though, Meat isn't as commercially successful as he used to be. Fact.
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Severin
post Mar 7 2012, 06:33 PM
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Whether the 'music' industry is in decline or not is a moot point when it comes to Meat Loaf anyway. He has a core fan base that is generally in the over 30s bracket that will buy it but little more. Indeed Hang Cool Teddy Bear went silver just under two years ago so if this latest effort fails to do so it's hard to argue that the decline in sales is down to his hardcore fans not buying it because they've downloaded it - over 30s are statistically less inclined to download music. They didn't buy the last one in droves and dedicated fans tend to always buy physical.

If this album tanks it will be because it's either not good enough and even diehard fans might skip it or its simply been very poorly promoted. Probably both. Meat Loaf simply isn't as popular with the UK public to any kind of level like he was in the late 70s/early 80s period and his brief 90s revival. Silver sales is exactly the same kind of amount albums like Bad Attitude and Blind Before I Stop did. Seems to me that the UK public at large only seem to care if it carries the 'Bat' name or involves Steinman.



As for the industry in decline I disagree. Album sales overall in decline only says to me that people are choosier about what they purchase. With spotify and youtube you can listen before you buy and people won't waste cash on albums with two good singles and a load of crap because now you can hear it before paying. In years back you spent the cash optimistically and often took the record straight to the second hand shop days later. In the long run artists and labels need to think much more carefully about who they sign and whether they have enough about them to produce consistent work. Hopefully the effect will be to strip away the weak and leave us with a better quality of music available (call me naive). This combined with the sheer breadth of quality available music online and live says to me that the industry is in the healthiest it's been since the 80s, even the 60s and until the record labels start wising up and pushing dross down our throats, us, the public will continue to pick and choose what we spend our valuable pennies on and CD sales remain stronger than downloads because that continues to be the publics preference.
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PaulM1983
post Mar 7 2012, 08:46 PM
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Severin I agree with pretty much everything you've said. However, we're incorrect and our facts are wrong apparently. The album's in for a big tumble this week, as it's sitting at 19 in the first midweek update. It certainly isn't looking good at all.

Robgomm, what you fail to mention is that the BPI certification of 4xplatinum for The Fame was done on 7 January 2010. So it was certified at 1.2 million within a year of release. So you're either deliberately omitting facts from your posts in the hope we just go along with them and don't check on them, or you truly believe that she didn't sell another copy of that album in the 2 years since then. Either way, you're well and truly wrong on all counts.

Just one thing Severin, I love Meat Loaf and have done since I was about 8 or 9, but I'm only 28. I don't want to be in the over 30 bracket yet!! laugh.gif


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post Mar 9 2012, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE(PaulM1983 @ Mar 7 2012, 08:46 PM) *
Just one thing Severin, I love Meat Loaf and have done since I was about 8 or 9, but I'm only 28. I don't want to be in the over 30 bracket yet!! laugh.gif

laugh.gif In my defence I did say generally. You do realise you probably lower the average age of his fans by a couple of years then!
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Alcohol_Prone
post Mar 15 2012, 09:18 PM
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Back to the album - it's OK. I much prefer HCTB.

I don't think it has been promoted that well. Certainly not the amount of airplay that Los Angeloser managed, but there isn't really an "instant" sort of track on the album, like LA, or It's All Coming Back To Me Now.


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post Mar 22 2012, 07:52 PM
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Love meat loaf just brilliant really want to get this new album.
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PaulM1983
post Mar 23 2012, 02:50 PM
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Wow, this album has completely tanked in the US. He only sold 5000 copies last week to debut at number 99. That's shocking, considering he has done promotion in the US in the run up to the release. It's a pity, because it does deserve better than that, but I think that absolutely proves that even the vast majority of his core fan base have deserted him now.
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post Mar 23 2012, 07:47 PM
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From Wikipedia:

QUOTE
Future albums

Meat Loaf has eight songs for an intended album after Hell in a Handbasket and is planning to release a Christmas album in 2012 called Hot Holidays.[citation needed] It is expected to feature guest vocals by Garth Brooks and Reba McEntire as well as some other prominent singers, including "different rock people and some actors", he told Billboard.[when?]. He has said that he is intending to work with Jim Steinman again, but that Steinman "doesn't know it yet".


Not a fan of Christmas albums, but I guess it'll be more successful than HIAH, particularly in the US. Also, if those eight songs weren't good enough for HIAH, and some of the guff on there was considered better then it doesn't bode well for the next proper studio album.
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