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> EU Referendum Discussion, Thursday 23rd June
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angel_lotita
post Feb 20 2016, 08:07 AM
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If there is a thread for this already feel free to merge/delete.

Cabinet are discussing the new UK-EU deal today, and afterwards we will be getting the date for the referendum.


This post has been edited by princess_lotti: Feb 20 2016, 05:55 PM
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popchartfreak
post Feb 20 2016, 10:21 AM
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was thinking of doing a thread for exposing wildly hyperbolic claims from rabid supporters of either Yes or No. I'll pop them on here instead. First off? It has to be Nigel Farage interviewed this morning practically frothing at the mouth. Apparently the EU is responsible for everything wrong in the UK and leaving it will make everything rosy and perfect, plus it'll get rid of those pesky immigrants coming over here and taking jobs away and living on benefits.

OK. most of our ills are caused by previous BRITISH governments and their policies, the EU doesn't tell us what to spend, how much to spend, and on what, we do that all on our own. The current crisis is not caused by foreigners, except for those ones working in banking. The rich ones from America and so on, who both are and are not part of the EU. The immigrant always gets blamed by rich toffs as a scapegoat. The rags pushing this anti-EU foreigner stance are owned by enormously wealthy foreigners who will pretty much have free-reign to buy an entire political party and power beyond their wildest dreams. This is hypocrisy. Foreigners are allowed to come over here and tell us what to do, buy up our houses, businesses, or marry us (hello Nigel hypocrite Farage) but not allowed to sweep floors and clean toilets, or slightly better jobs. The top jobs have already become subject to non-EU cushy deals which allows foreign firms to employ their own countryman and move over here.

Cameron has done a benefits deal, though this small fry in money terms, just like the overall loss of income is over-stated. Tinkering round the edges compared to, say, the volumes of cash owed by the banks still.

So, I shall declare myself very pro-EU and very frightened at the prospect of even more free-reign Toryism or Murdochism than there is right now. We will lose lots of benefits, and all the crap about being free to trade with the rest of the world instead is nonsense - we already are free to do that, in case anyone hasn't noticed we just gave China our contracts for nuclear power stations just as happily as we sold our power companies to France. The EU has no effect on these policies at all. If the China economy goes belly-up from it's bubble though, we will very much be affected as the Tory Party are putting all of it's financial bets on them, a country which has brand-new deserted cities and the biggest property-bubble of all-time.

So, happy days are here again. It's quite easy to argue the pro case cos the leave case is so full of BS rhetoric. tongue.gif
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Qassändra
post Feb 20 2016, 01:11 PM
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I don't really get the pro-EU lot who treat it as a religion, but I think I'm pretty solidly In on the basis that it just makes zero sense to me to leave the club and still have to abide by most of its rules without getting a say on them - we aren't going to leave the EEA or EFTA, so why bother risking a load of jobs for the sake of 'sovereignty' that isn't sovereignty?

And as for the argument that if we leave we'll magically be able to strike up a load of free trade deals...I mean, it's pretty apparent these people professing to know all about our economic destiny have no idea about China's general economic strategy in the countries they're proposing we deal with instead.
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Suedehead2
post Feb 20 2016, 01:42 PM
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I think it's fair to assume that some of the people who were most vocal in describing the SNP's plans for independence as "over-optimistic" or "vague" will, over the next few months, be making equally unsubstantiated claims for the UK's prospects outside the EU. Yet, as they are the ones advocating change, the onus is on them to make a convincing case.

My biggest worry is that a lot of people will cotton on to the fact that Cameron is a serial liar and will instinctively vote against him. There is also a danger that he will say something catastrophically stupid which will make people vote to leave just to spite him.
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poppet15
post Feb 20 2016, 02:01 PM
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Everyone blames European immigrants for our troubles. But what about all the immigrants from places such as Pakistan & Bangladesh that came over in hundreds of thousands over the last 20 or 30 years and claiming benefits.

There are millions more of them than EU immigrants. At least EU immigrants come to work and do jobs that we won't do unlike the economic migrants who just come to get all their kids kept.

I know which immigration I'd rather have if any of these.

Also I'd rather be with Europe than being a lapdog to America and becoming their 51st state.
Think about all the jobs that will be lost if we leave.

If we left the EU Scotland will soon be wanting another vote for independence as they would stand to really lose out if we left.

I'm Pro-European and proud of it. Better the devil you know!!!


This post has been edited by poppet15: Feb 20 2016, 02:10 PM
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Qassändra
post Feb 20 2016, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Feb 20 2016, 01:42 PM) *
My biggest worry is that a lot of people will cotton on to the fact that Cameron is a serial liar and will instinctively vote against him. There is also a danger that he will say something catastrophically stupid which will make people vote to leave just to spite him.

Well it's not as if it's likely either of those things would become more of an issue after eleven years rather than ten.
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Suedehead2
post Feb 20 2016, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 20 2016, 02:20 PM) *
Well it's not as if it's likely either of those things would become more of an issue after eleven years rather than ten.

The difference is that he has a large part of the tabloid press lined up against him on this.
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Weiss Schnee
post Feb 20 2016, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE(poppet15 @ Feb 20 2016, 02:01 PM) *
But what about all the immigrants from places such as Pakistan & Bangladesh that came over in hundreds of thousands over the last 20 or 30 years and claiming benefits.

There are millions more of them than EU immigrants. At least EU immigrants come to work and do jobs that we won't do unlike the economic migrants who just come to get all their kids kept.


How dare they invade, no, say, colonise our country and treat it like it's their own, eh?

QUOTE
Also I'd rather be with Europe than being a lapdog to America and becoming their 51st state.


I want America to hurry up and ascend Puerto Rico already so this 51st state nonsense at least gets a new number.

~~

Like, I'm up for staying very much because it would be an almighty step backwards to reduce our position in one of the strongest multi-state organisations on the planet. As far as I'm concerned the system is working well for us, we're stronger together than we are apart and there's no use taking the risk because some disgruntled right-wing nuts think we can just rebuild our economic ties like that.

Additionally, we are one of the states at the centre of the organisation, so leaving and taking up a Switzerland-like position would surely not go down well with the other big contributors. A Brexit would be disastrous to our relations with the rest of Europe.
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Qassändra
post Feb 20 2016, 02:53 PM
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Also the whole 51st state thing is all a bit 2006 really. We haven't by any stretch of the imagination 'just done what America told us' for a while now.
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Soy Adrián
post Feb 20 2016, 03:47 PM
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The demographic time-bomb that would result from us turning away migrants from other EU countries and them returning the favour doesn't bear thinking about. Easy decision for me. Less than amused that the vote will be while I'm at Glastonbury, but it gives us an excuse to buy an EU flag.
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poppet15
post Feb 20 2016, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Feb 20 2016, 02:53 PM) *
Also the whole 51st state thing is all a bit 2006 really. We haven't by any stretch of the imagination 'just done what America told us' for a while now.


Forgotten Iraq & Afghanistan already and now also Syria!!
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Suedehead2
post Feb 20 2016, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Feb 20 2016, 03:47 PM) *
The demographic time-bomb that would result from us turning away migrants from other EU countries and them returning the favour doesn't bear thinking about. Easy decision for me. Less than amused that the vote will be while I'm at Glastonbury, but it gives us an excuse to buy an EU flag.

Just remember to arrange a postal vote!

It's also in the gap between the end of the group stage and the start of the last-16 in the Euros.
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Suedehead2
post Feb 20 2016, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE(poppet15 @ Feb 20 2016, 03:52 PM) *
Forgotten Iraq & Afghanistan already and now also Syria!!

Iraq and Afghanistan were both before 2006.
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Qassändra
post Feb 20 2016, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE(poppet15 @ Feb 20 2016, 03:52 PM) *
Forgotten Iraq & Afghanistan already and now also Syria!!

Iraq and Afghanistan were both before 2006. You also seem to have forgotten that we didn't go into Syria in 2013 when America asked - which had the added effect of America not doing so either. So no, we aren't 'on the verge' of becoming the 51st state.
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Jingle Burbes
post Feb 20 2016, 05:16 PM
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I don't understand why the SNP are so pro-EU, yet hellbent on being independent from the UK? I hope I'm not being stupid, but it just seems like a massive contradiction in their policy.
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Qassändra
post Feb 20 2016, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE(burbe @ Feb 20 2016, 05:16 PM) *
I don't understand why the SNP are so pro-EU, yet hellbent on being independent from the UK? I hope I'm not being stupid, but it just seems like a massive contradiction in their policy.

YEP
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Brett-Butler
post Feb 20 2016, 06:24 PM
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The sooner that the pro-EU side make cheaper phone calls and data fees whilst in the Eurozone the front and centre of their campaign to remain in, the better chance they'll have of making a connection.
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Suedehead2
post Feb 20 2016, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Feb 20 2016, 06:24 PM) *
The sooner that the pro-EU side make cheaper phone calls and data fees whilst in the Eurozone the front and centre of their campaign to remain in, the better chance they'll have of making a connection.

Not to mention the part the EU played in allowing budget airlines to exist, thereby allowing more people to travel to a place where roaming charges are relevant.
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Qassändra
post Feb 20 2016, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Feb 20 2016, 06:24 PM) *
The sooner that the pro-EU side make cheaper phone calls and data fees whilst in the Eurozone the front and centre of their campaign to remain in, the better chance they'll have of making a connection.

They already have!
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Harve
post Feb 20 2016, 09:37 PM
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At this point, I'm not even sure if I want the UK to be part of the EU. I'm not saying that as a Eurosceptic - I mean that I'm not sure if the UK even DESERVES to be in the EU.

I'm torn between my identity as both a European and British person and the principle that the EU should be egalitarian with no special status membership (although of course the latter isn't entirely new). It's quite ironic that those who preach that the EU isn't a democratic organisation are indeed the biggest threat to the EU being fair.

Obviously I can't see myself voting Leave, but I guess I share the sentiments that many people outside the UK feel and are at this point wondering, only half-jokingly, why they don't have a referendum as to whether the UK is allowed remain a member of the EU. In any case I feel as though the damage is already done.


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