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Liаm
post Jun 3 2016, 03:30 AM
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This is something that's angered me a lot and obviously it's been the news recently so you'll probably all have views on this, I thought it would be good to discuss.

I read on Digital Spy today about Stacey Dash saying that transgendered people should "go to the bathroom in the bush" and saying that appeals against the North Carolina anti-trans law (which states the public bathroom used must match the person's biological sex) is "tyranny by the minority" :/ She's also said that trans rights "infringe" on her rights and that being trans goes against feminism because women should stop "trying to be men", and vice versa. I'm just using her as a perfect example of the ignorance displayed around the world I suppose.

In my view, I think the human right to be live your life comfortably as you want, however you feel inside, is paramount. This might converge with free speech and blow apart people's small little bubble of a comfort zone but just because you CAN say something about whatever is happening, doesn't mean you should. Until it is actually affecting your life I don't believe you have any reason to go against what others should rightfully have... Why on earth should an individual who cannot help being born in the wrong body have to be forced into humiliation, using the public bathroom for a gender opposite to how they present and feel, just because some people live in the 1950s? I really do not know how which bathroom someone else uses is anyone else's business anyway, much less how it would affect their lives. It's not as if men are going around sneaking into women's bathrooms and snooping, the principle just is for a trans woman or man to fully live as a man or woman, how they feel inside. Gender IS a social construct whether people like it or not and as such society has to change with it, it's not always as simple as being born male or female and sticking with that, people have such varying experiences.

What are your views on this? Does anyone have any personal experiences, even friends or family, that they'd like to share?
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Umi
post Jun 3 2016, 04:10 AM
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It's really disappointing to see the way trans people are still treated and thought of by so many, and it often makes me feel like a lot of the progress made in gay rights has been pretty meaningless in terms of social progress even if it's been amazing in terms of legal rights. That's a clumsily worded way of saying that I'm glad gay rights have come on so far, but when you see how people treat trans people you realise that society really isn't very accepting of difference at all - we've just managed to convince everyone that gays aren't different enough to be worthy of hate.

I mean I guess it just means we need to work harder to convince people that trans people are people too, but that's gonna take a while based on how long it took for gay people.
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vidsanta
post Jun 3 2016, 05:25 AM
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QUOTE(Umi @ Jun 3 2016, 05:10 AM) *
It's really disappointing to see the way trans people are still treated and thought of by so many, and it often makes me feel like a lot of the progress made in gay rights has been pretty meaningless in terms of social progress even if it's been amazing in terms of legal rights. That's a clumsily worded way of saying that I'm glad gay rights have come on so far, but when you see how people treat trans people you realise that society really isn't very accepting of difference at all - we've just managed to convince everyone that gays aren't different enough to be worthy of hate.

I mean I guess it just means we need to work harder to convince people that trans people are people too, but that's gonna take a while based on how long it took for gay people.


People's beliefs are rooted in when/where/how they were raised, and once established are very hard to change. Also, any attempt to persuade them that what they were raised to believe is 'wrong' is likely to have the opposite effect to the one desired, e.g. creating resentment, and resistance to change, rather than facilitating it.

As I see it, tolerance must necessarily involve accepting the existence even of views that you consider 'bigoted', as trying to impose a common morality is doomed to failure.
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ionderella
post Jun 3 2016, 07:31 AM
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QUOTE(Liаm @ Jun 3 2016, 06:30 AM) *
She's also said that trans rights "infringe" on her rights and that being trans goes against feminism because women should stop "trying to be men", and vice versa.

that's quite literally the stupidest thing anyone could have ever said.
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ionderella
post Jun 3 2016, 07:35 AM
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but that was before i read her say this

"I wish we could go back to 'Mad Men' days. I love those days."

and this

"but I'm not gonna put my child's life at risk because you want to change a law."

she's literally quite stupid, isn't she?

:')
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ionderella
post Jun 3 2016, 07:49 AM
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she's an avid supporter of Trump so everything falls into place now. phew!
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vidsanta
post Jun 3 2016, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE(💯 @ Jun 3 2016, 08:49 AM) *
she's an avid supporter of Trump so everything falls into place now. phew!


She makes even *me* look tolerant! wink.gif
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Suedehead2
post Jun 3 2016, 08:50 AM
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I'm pleased to say that I have no idea who Stacey Dash is.

Back on topic, it has taken a long time to gain broad acceptance for those of us who are gay. It is bound to take some time before transgender people gain the same acceptance. There are two main reasons why I say that.

Because it has become easier for people to be open about their sexuality, it means that most people now know somebody who is gay. They are family members, work colleagues etc. In other words, someone they have known for a long time or people they cannot avoid talking to occasionally. OTOH, because they are a much smaller minority, most people do not know somebody who is transgender. Therefore, there is still some element of "fear of the unknown".

In addition, many people will have been through a period in their life when they were unsure of their sexuality. Most of us, though, have never had reason to question our gender. That adds to the "fear of the unknown" and makes it harder for many people to understand the concept of being born in the wrong body.

I'm sure that tolerance of transgender people will improve in years to come. Having transgender people in the public eye will help, but these things always take time and there will always be idiots spouting nonsense.
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Colm
post Jun 3 2016, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 3 2016, 06:25 AM) *
People's beliefs are rooted in when/where/how they were raised, and once established are very hard to change. Also, any attempt to persuade them that what they were raised to believe is 'wrong' is likely to have the opposite effect to the one desired, e.g. creating resentment, and resistance to change, rather than facilitating it.

As I see it, tolerance must necessarily involve accepting the existence even of views that you consider 'bigoted', as trying to impose a common morality is doomed to failure.



I totally disagree with a lot of this.

It is quite easy to change your beliefs if you are smart enough to realise that those beliefs were formed when you didn't have enough information, that they were handed to you by your parents or your church, or that you were just young and stupid at the time. I've changed my opinion on abortion, for example.

No one should try to "impose" morality. What is necessary for the spread of equal rights is that people are educated about the positions and conditions of other people's lives who may be different to yours but this needs to happen at a younger age because there will be "stupid" people who adhere rigidly to whatever bullshit they've been lead to believe when they were young.


This post has been edited by Colm: Jun 3 2016, 09:05 AM
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ʟɪɴᴅs.
post Jun 3 2016, 11:02 AM
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I couldn't agree with you more Liam, I am glad that there is more about transgender people being put out there nowadays as I remember being 12/13 and not even being aware of the term but there's definitely a lot of ignorance surrounding it still and people being completely rejecting of trans people and it's disgusting to think about the kind of hardships they have to go through because of other people. Let them live their lives however they please, in the body they feel they should have been born in, they're not hurting anyone by being themselves. Transgender people should be able to use the bathroom they want to use, and anything else for that matter. Tbh I cant believe people make such a big deal out of something like what bathroom a person should use, it's ridiculous really. I think there's some places that have introduced same sex bathrooms which is a good idea in terms of what it does for trans people but I imagine problems could arise with that also.

This post has been edited by ℒ𝓲𝓷𝓭𝓼𝒆𝔂: Jun 3 2016, 11:04 AM
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Joe ho ho!
post Jun 3 2016, 11:07 AM
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People like Dash and Trump will always be there. I'm so used to complaining about them. I've found the best thing to do with people as blindly opinionated without reason is to roll my eyes and ignore them. Trans rights seem to be, finally, moving forward a little bit and people's awareness is increasing slightly, so that's pleasing to see.
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Qassändra
post Jun 3 2016, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 3 2016, 06:25 AM) *
as trying to impose a common morality is doomed to failure.

Society seems to manage fine with law.
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Colm
post Jun 3 2016, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Jun 3 2016, 12:23 PM) *
Society seems to manage fine with law.



Agreed.
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Popchartfreak
post Jun 3 2016, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 3 2016, 06:25 AM) *
People's beliefs are rooted in when/where/how they were raised, and once established are very hard to change. Also, any attempt to persuade them that what they were raised to believe is 'wrong' is likely to have the opposite effect to the one desired, e.g. creating resentment, and resistance to change, rather than facilitating it.

As I see it, tolerance must necessarily involve accepting the existence even of views that you consider 'bigoted', as trying to impose a common morality is doomed to failure.


No, you have to challenge dumb views. If you don't people continue to think it's OK to hold those sort of views and nothing changes. They can be as bigoted as they want to be in their own home, but if they choose to air those views then it's down to sane people to explain why they are wrong, and if they don't listen to reason then it's down to us to make sure they aren't in a position to dictate to us what we should all feel and say and and live our lives as.
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liamk97
post Jun 3 2016, 12:20 PM
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Shock horror: non-controversial post approaching... ohmy.gif

Her argument is just bizarre; it's like she's stuck together a load of cliches, to the point where, I at least hope, she's trying to be ironic? I mean, the whole "I'm not going to put my child's life at risk" thing is just extraordinary, as if she's trying to insinuate (and I don't mean to put words in someone's mouth, but this is the only thing I can think of that 'fits') that all trans are perverts and that's the only reason they'd go to the "opposite" bathroom. And I have no idea which dark depths of Tumblr she's been on to get the idea that transexuality is bad for the feminist movement, as if someone would only ever transition into a man because they think all women are weak or whatever.

I like how she in fact states that "it's your body" and "it's your decision" but completely ignores the obvious of that meaning people can be who they want to be and instead sees that as an opportunity to essentially say "because it's a choice, it means you should choose not to transition because you can 'help it'", as if anyone should give a rat's arse whether or not it's a choice or not.

I also love the subtle pun from the writer of the DS article where they've put "Clueless star Stacey Dash". heehee.gif

QUOTE(Umi @ Jun 3 2016, 05:10 AM) *
It's really disappointing to see the way trans people are still treated and thought of by so many, and it often makes me feel like a lot of the progress made in gay rights has been pretty meaningless in terms of social progress even if it's been amazing in terms of legal rights. That's a clumsily worded way of saying that I'm glad gay rights have come on so far, but when you see how people treat trans people you realise that society really isn't very accepting of difference at all - we've just managed to convince everyone that gays aren't different enough to be worthy of hate.

I mean I guess it just means we need to work harder to convince people that trans people are people too, but that's gonna take a while based on how long it took for gay people.

This makes a lot of sense; I think you pin-pointed that perfectly.
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Liаm
post Jun 3 2016, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 3 2016, 06:25 AM) *
As I see it, tolerance must necessarily involve accepting the existence even of views that you consider 'bigoted', as trying to impose a common morality is doomed to failure.

A huge role of society is a collective conscience for us all... Sure, there's always going to be conflicting views but there are universal morals, mos of which are rooted in law which as said above seems to serve us just fine laugh.gif Of course nothing is totally 100% universal because people break laws but as the best moral conscious we have as a society I think it often takes a law to truly change how society views something. For example when homosexuality was still a criminal offence, even classified as an illness, that was really rooted in society and without people having their own experiences and realising that gay people aren't ill or morally deficient, with a law telling them otherwise, I guess it's inevitable that they think, even subconsciously, "ooh this must be wrong", sadly.

I know that transgender rights aren't quite as far back as it being criminalised but when they don't have the same rights in law, which is fundamental and should be a part of being human however "different" you may be, there is still a long way to go. As has been said anyway, regardless of rights and law, these views do need to be challenged. I mean it took the suffragettes to get women the vote, imagine if they hadn't and nobody ever stood up for that, and even now only men could vote, because "we shouldn't change views"?!
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Tyler
post Jun 3 2016, 05:34 PM
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Stacey Dash's mom should have swallowed.
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Riser
post Jun 4 2016, 03:36 AM
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One of my cousins just went through transition surgery last year so I've become a lot more familiar with the issues he faces. He's a teacher at a school that has been luckily supportive, and the students have had no problem calling him Mr. now instead of Miss, which is really encouraging!

As for bathroom laws, by now I'm sure all of us have been in a public bathroom with someone who's transgender at some point in time, and 99% of us will have never even noticed someone in the room being transgender! It's such a non-issue to me that the controversy over it is unreal. It bothers me that people don't want gun laws in America because "gun laws won't stop criminals!!!!!1" but some of the same people think that bathroom laws will stop criminals from using the "wrong" bathroom. And then people like Stacey Dash, how can she even believe what she's saying? How are we even supposed to enforce bathroom laws!? Does she really want someone to stand there and check everyone's ID, including her own, to make sure everyone's using the "correct" bathroom? I guess I need to see how North Carolina's law is being enforced, it seems beyond ridiculous to me.
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vidsanta
post Jun 4 2016, 07:32 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Jun 3 2016, 09:50 AM) *
Because it has become easier for people to be open about their sexuality, it means that most people now know somebody who is gay.


Or people whom they are *aware* are gay - I doubt that there are any more gay people around now than there ever were,

QUOTE(Colm @ Jun 3 2016, 10:03 AM) *
I totally disagree with a lot of this.

It is quite easy to change your beliefs if you are smart enough to realise that those beliefs were formed when you didn't have enough information, that they were handed to you by your parents or your church, or that you were just young and stupid at the time. I've changed my opinion on abortion, for example.

No one should try to "impose" morality. What is necessary for the spread of equal rights is that people are educated about the positions and conditions of other people's lives who may be different to yours but this needs to happen at a younger age because there will be "stupid" people who adhere rigidly to whatever bullshit they've been lead to believe when they were young.


There's a difference between recognising that your beliefs are bigoted, and actually being able to change them, though. Sometimes the best they can do is keep quiet.


QUOTE(Qassändra @ Jun 3 2016, 12:23 PM) *
Society seems to manage fine with law.


<cough>Prohibition<cough> wink.gif
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vidsanta
post Jun 4 2016, 07:34 AM
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A follow-up question : Is any kind of prejudice acceptable?
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