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'Patriotism is an important quality to have''
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HausAlone
post Jun 13 2016, 06:08 PM
Post #1
Henrietta R Hippo
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The return of debates ;o

This one comes from the sporting events of the past week. The Euros and (because there always has to be negativity) the actions of some fans in the Russia vs England game. The question is, is it always important to be patriotic? Patriotism involves being proud of where you live and being happy about the country around you. By definition it's a positive thing, but is it always acted out accordingly? Can patriotism be used negatively and does it ultimately cause more problems than solve? What about the actions of the football fans - was that more related to sport and not patriotism?

If you are FOR you believe patriotism IS important.
If you are AGAINST you believe patriotism IS NOT important.


While you are here, take a look at previous debates and if you haven't already, have your say in those too!

'Doctors should not have the right to strike'
'Parents should be able to choose the sex of their child'
'War can never be justified'
'The opt-out system for organ donation should be mandatory'
'Assissted suicide should be legalised'
'People who download illegally should be prosecuted'
'Capital Punishment should be reinstated'
'Voting should be compulsory'
'The voting age should be lowered to 16'
'Abortion should be made illegal in the UK'
'Animal testing should be outright banned'
'Vaccines should be a legal requirement'
'Religion does more harm than good'
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Slade
post Jun 13 2016, 06:17 PM
Post #2
Mrs Brayden Smith <333
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Ooh this is interesting as I was just thinking about this recently. This was due to the question about virtues in the proust questionnaire.

Anyway, I voted yes as I think it's a good thing to be proud of your country and showing support. This can give a general boost and unite a lot of us. The 2012 Olympics for example was SUCH a glorious example of this. It's a shame that there seem to be plenty of stories regarding football hooligans that take such a positive thing and go about it the wrong way. I guess it's the way you go about executing your passion. One thing is being invested and putting a flag up or something, but violence is just a no no.
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HausAlone
post Jun 13 2016, 06:17 PM
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Henrietta R Hippo
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I personally find patriotism to be acted out really annoyingly. For many it only comes around during sporting events and for those die-hard PROUD TO BE BRITISH/AMERICAN/WHATEVER COUNTRY often are unaccepting of any negativity about the country and just have idealised views. Obviously if it's paired with open-mindedness then it's a really good quality to have but it can be taken too far all too often. I had a few at school who were very patriotic and it's tarnished my view of them mainly because of the casual racism that came with it but I know the two are not synonymous of course. So yeah, i've voted against based on my own experiences as i'd rather people be passionate about other PEOPLE not places ~

I am proud to be British and think the place I live in has given me so much, but I am much more proud to be a Brummy and it's often that that I get passionate about (when i'm not slagging it off jokingly). Birmingham is THE PLACE TO BE!!1
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MauriahChristmaz
post Jun 13 2016, 06:26 PM
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I'm not really a patriot tbf, I am not proud of what my country is and stands for at the moment however i am proud of what it used to be, rebuilding the country after a destructive war in 1945 and be open to all religions,cultures and sexuality ,being the 1st country in the world to legalize gay marriage.However this has all changed the last few years and i'm sick of it. I can't be proud of my country and i like to leave as soon as i can.
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MerryFlynnmas
post Jun 13 2016, 06:27 PM
Post #5
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I do believe in a sense that patriotism is important to have as a quality, however sometimes people can be irritating with their patriotism for example royalists or die hard footy fans who act as if their country is amazing and none other club or country is better laugh.gif Its just a bit much. I think the support of something is important because if not why bother saying your a fan. However taking that support and feeling like your shoving in faces can be a bit annoying imo. Just don't get too up there with how your supporting your country or team or whatever it is.
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Winter Wombatlan...
post Jun 13 2016, 06:27 PM
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Patriotism is a great thing to have, being proud of your country and uniting with fellow country folk to support them being the best they can be is a great unifying feeling, it's why I love the international sports events and supporting the best of British doing well. This country isn't perfect, but I remain very proud of it.

Aggressive patriotism that goes beyond that to basically say 'my country's better than yours' is bad though, that's where it all goes wrong and becomes damaging to the country's image rather than representative. The England/Russia thing is really sad, as I haven't heard of scenes like this in many years, though sporting events, especially football, are a double edged sword in that they attract the best of patriotism and the worst...

I also don't really like the attitude that you MUST be patriotic and flaunt how much you love the country to everyone and the country has no flaws, that could lead to what I discussed above and is ridiculous - I'm proud of my country, but that doesn't mean I have to go around and state it at every opportunity possible, particularly not by means of looking superior.

Patriotism at it's best is great, so I am definitely for it, it's just something that can easily be taken too far.
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Tyler
post Jun 13 2016, 06:38 PM
Post #7
No wonder there's panic in this industry, I mean please...
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I am NOT proud to be an American.

I am, however, proud of those that continue to live here and be a staple for change. This is not a safe place, there isn't a safe place outside of your home, if even that. The only thing safe in this country is the second amendment.
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Yuki On Ice~
post Jun 13 2016, 06:44 PM
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Completely against. Lately I've been feeling quite anti-patriotic and not proud to be British in the slightest, based on the actions of other Brits, hooliganism, wanting to pull away from Europe, racism, and just embarassment at how we're perceived on the world stage. Though it is the perfect time to ask this, if we do leave the EU I'll feel even more dejected and detached from the British identity.

In some ways I probably idolize other cultures, Germany, Japan and Scandinavia, because through observance it seems to me that they're better overall (if not without their own problems), if my circumstances ever allowed it, I would seek to live in a place like those. See, that's the thing, your birth in any particular country is an accident of chance so patriotism based on birth does not seem logical to me.

Don't misunderstand me, this is one of the better places in the world to be living and in games, sports and stuff I'm happy (but little more) when we do well, I spend much more time finding other international teams to support. I'm just not feeling very much in line with my people right now and I won't be told to show devotion to it if I'm not happy with how it's presenting itself.
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liamk97
post Jun 13 2016, 06:52 PM
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When I saw the title of the thread, I have to admit I was a little confused as to why patriotism could be a bad thing, but I see what people are saying based on the examples given, even though said examples go against what patriotism is to me.

Personally, I don't associate patriotism as anything to do with politics or pretending everything is perfect with the country or being aggressively competitive to the point you'll be violent to 'prove' how much better your country is than another. To me, it's about, despite the flaws, seeing the good in your country and getting together to celebrate it and push the positives through so you're not just associated with doom and gloom. We have a tendency to blanket-cover countries with their faults when that's usually down to governments and not of the people and it's the people who should represent what a country is. Seeing rides and stalls set up in the park, house parties and flags flying high for the Queen's 90th celebrations just make me feel happy and proud, because I know this is due to just ordinary people pulling together to mark a significant event for the country. For a moment, you just forget about all the misery and just take time to appreciate the good, which so often gets unnoticed. The Olympics 2012, as Jade brought up, was the absolute peak of patriotism in my short lifetime and I am so thankful to have just been old enough to appreciate what it was.
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5 Silas Frøkner
post Jun 13 2016, 07:05 PM
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I think Patriotism at it's purest (see Diamond Jubilee, Olympics 2012, Commonwealth Games 2002/2014) is an absolutely incredible thing. Being a part of 2014 was so special, you could just feel the national pride (as I'm sure CW will attest for 2012) and how the entire country stood hand in hand, differences forgotten and ignored. The opening ceremony, and whole games really, made ME patriotic as f*** for a country I hated living in!!!

The opening ceremony contained dancing f***ing teacakes! Never has there been something so Scottish.


On the other hand, patriotism is by and large co-opted by the nationalist movements which has tainted it somewhat. (and yes, before the usual suspects start to foam at the mouth, the SNP are just as guilty of this as anyone else and I've never defended it. Braveheart and it's connotations make me want to hurl)

Movements like the EDL and UKIP, and yes the SNP, have pushed hard on a patriotism angle to fuel their cause. (first two being racism and the third being self-determination)
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Yuki On Ice~
post Jun 13 2016, 07:33 PM
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I'll admit that the Olympics were absolutely wonderful for the cause of patriotism and that is one of the few times when I have been genuinely proud of our country, because it deserved it. On merit. How we dealt with that and organised a world event was class.

Sadly, since then, through politics or people acting in the name of nationalism, opportunities to feel like that about the UK, its government, its people and its culture have been few and far between for me.
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Jack
post Jun 13 2016, 07:56 PM
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Not at al, I'm completely ashamed to be British laugh.gif
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LexC
post Jun 13 2016, 08:14 PM
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Speaking less about the specifics of my own situation, I'm going to go with a no to this one. To me, being proud of something denotes that it's something you've either chosen or achieved and in the nicest way possible, the country you were born in is just where you happened to come out of your mother's vagina so I don't consider that a pride worthy emotion (although I say this as someone who's always lived in the country they were born in, for an immigrant I suspect it might be different).

But even leaving that aside, I find that patriotism is a lot like religion. Not a bad thing innately but it's been used to justify the death, torture and enslavement of far too many people (see: virtually every major war of the last 100 years and probably even further back throughout history) for me to believe in it. So for that reason, I say 'no' to the poll.


This post has been edited by LexC: Jun 13 2016, 08:15 PM
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HausAlone
post Jun 13 2016, 09:55 PM
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Well this could be the closest debate we've had to date! ohmy.gif

Very interesting points raised so far. The Olympics were a huge moment for national pride, it's a shame it can't last much beyond big events like that.
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CodySleighBell-y
post Jun 13 2016, 10:02 PM
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I think I'm with Tyler on this.

I believe in this day and age, it's perfectly normal to love the country you live in but question every f*cked up value it entails (like the complete misuse of the Second Amendment every waking moment). And I do think the US has some uplifting moments of unity such as banding together to honor the victims of 9/11, when back then it wasn't cool to call out on Bush's bullshit. So basically I envision America as the uncle who f*cked up sometime in his life and is still paying his dues nearly 20 years later but is still f*cking up nonetheless

not entirely sure this made sense but y'know
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Ryan.
post Jun 13 2016, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE(Iz~ @ Jun 13 2016, 07:44 PM) *
Completely against. Lately I've been feeling quite anti-patriotic and not proud to be British in the slightest, based on the actions of other Brits, hooliganism, wanting to pull away from Europe, racism, and just embarassment at how we're perceived on the world stage. Though it is the perfect time to ask this, if we do leave the EU I'll feel even more dejected and detached from the British identity.

In some ways I probably idolize other cultures, Germany, Japan and Scandinavia, because through observance it seems to me that they're better overall (if not without their own problems), if my circumstances ever allowed it, I would seek to live in a place like those. See, that's the thing, your birth in any particular country is an accident of chance so patriotism based on birth does not seem logical to me.

Don't misunderstand me, this is one of the better places in the world to be living and in games, sports and stuff I'm happy (but little more) when we do well, I spend much more time finding other international teams to support. I'm just not feeling very much in line with my people right now and I won't be told to show devotion to it if I'm not happy with how it's presenting itself.


QUOTE(Iz~ @ Jun 13 2016, 08:33 PM) *
I'll admit that the Olympics were absolutely wonderful for the cause of patriotism and that is one of the few times when I have been genuinely proud of our country, because it deserved it. On merit. How we dealt with that and organised a world event was class.

Sadly, since then, through politics or people acting in the name of nationalism, opportunities to feel like that about the UK, its government, its people and its culture have been few and far between for me.


I want to vote for whatever party Iz becomes leader of in the future, absolutely spot on for how I feel regarding this debate too although I "idolise" different countries to those mentioned above. But an absolutely perfect two posts to describe my feelings!

I do feel I will be more patriotic for the UK at the Olympics rather than I am for England now at the Euros, probably because I doubt there will be such hooliganism by UK Olympic fans in Rio, which is something that makes me struggle to be a proud supporter of England at the moment, and also because I always call myself British rather than English. I always wish we just had a UK team instead of separating us all up in the Euros for example.

(and here's me with a British flag in my avatar but that's to promote Eurovision not the UK!!!!11)
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Tyler
post Jun 13 2016, 10:33 PM
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No wonder there's panic in this industry, I mean please...
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QUOTE(Cody Collins @ Jun 13 2016, 06:02 PM) *
I think I'm with Tyler on this.

I believe in this day and age, it's perfectly normal to love the country you live in but question every f*cked up value it entails (like the complete misuse of the Second Amendment every waking moment). And I do think the US has some uplifting moments of unity such as banding together to honor the victims of 9/11, when back then it wasn't cool to call out on Bush's bullshit. So basically I envision America as the uncle who f*cked up sometime in his life and is still paying his dues nearly 20 years later but is still f*cking up nonetheless

not entirely sure this made sense but y'know


It makes sense to a fellow American. It's that way because America has a large majority of citizens that are so far from one another, yet, so populated. There seems to be different ideals in every region. It's nearly impossible to have a mutual understanding with one another, when half of the country is made up of ignorant religious fanatics that have no value for this life. They are to worried about the next to show love and compassion to all those that walk this earth.

We are human beings before we are citizens of man made borders. Patriotism? Why can't everybody just love everybody. Or at the very least respect ones right to live.
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LexC
post Jun 13 2016, 10:53 PM
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Gotta say I'm with Iz and Ryan on the feelings around England/Britain at the moment, particularly with the former in the current political climate which I don't see any of my own identity in (and yes I know regimes change and all that but it's just so far out of sync it's not something that'll magically change in a few years and I'm not here to spend the next 20 years manning the front line of the culture wars).
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LexC
post Jun 13 2016, 10:53 PM
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F this, lets just all move to Canada.
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Umi
post Jun 14 2016, 03:18 AM
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Patriotism is probably the single biggest cause of hatred and violence outside of religion. If anything it's important to be aware of your patriotism and ensure it doesn't go too far. The social aspect of patriotism can be good (e.g. banding together to support your country in competition) but also bad (e.g. the mentioned hooliganism) . On the more meaningful end of the scale, it's almost entirely negative - I can think of very little majorly beneficial stuff carried out in the name of patriotism but if you want bad stuff you've got stuff like lebensraum.

Rational patriotism (i.e. being fond of your country because your experiences show it to be a good one) is fine but that's not actually patriotism, it's just having made a positive logical assessment of a place you live, and you could do that about anywhere. Blind patriotism however is massively dangerous and generally harmful on a variety of levels. I'm pretty sure people like Donald Trump would not exist as serious political candidates if blind patriotism wasn't so prevalent and so good at taking people out of reality.
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