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> Who should prevail, people or parliament?
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People or parliament?
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vidsanta
post Jun 28 2016, 06:01 AM
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Regardless of your personal feelings on the result of the EU referendum, do you think that MP's should respect the result, and no do as some sources have suggested they might, try & block Brexit by any means possible?

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dancember
post Jun 28 2016, 06:16 AM
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Ideally a referendum should never have been held and we just stayed in. Let the Ukip supporters moan.

Now though I think MPs should try and get us to stay in, as 52% really isn't a big enough majority for Leave to be taken into effect (especially with all the lies the campaign spread)
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vidsanta
post Jun 28 2016, 06:23 AM
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QUOTE(danG @ Jun 28 2016, 07:16 AM) *
Ideally a referendum should never have been held and we just stayed in. Let the Ukip supporters moan.

Now though I think MPs should try and get us to stay in, as 52% really isn't a big enough majority for Leave to be taken into effect (especially with all the lies the campaign spread)


The main problem with that scenario, is that it is pissing all over democracy - IMO a far more dangerous precedent than merely leaving the EU. sad.gif



This post has been edited by vidcapper: Jun 28 2016, 06:24 AM
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vidsanta
post Jun 28 2016, 06:28 AM
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ON a side issue, who voted, and in what numbers?

[I've avoided Daily Mail articles, so hopefully my URL's might be followed] rolleyes.gif

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-ref...e-a7105396.html

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/stagg...e-eu-referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028


This post has been edited by vidcapper: Jun 28 2016, 06:28 AM
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Joe ho ho!
post Jun 28 2016, 06:47 AM
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I agree with the Dan, it should never have gone to the public. Unlike the recent Irish ref on equal marriage, it wasn't an easy enough yes/no question. People didn't understand the possible consiquences and what they were voting for. As a result, the country is in the biggest political mess I've seen.

I don't really get where they get the numbers but apparently more than 1 million people who voted leave wish they could change their vote... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...e-a7105116.html
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Christmas Cherry...
post Jun 28 2016, 08:31 AM
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In my opinion this referendum actually undermines our representative democracy. If we give our MPs a mandate they should've had the responsibility to use it and make this decision on behalf of the electorate. 75% of MPs don't support Brexit so I think they should keep fighting for what they believe in. My local MP has tweeted support to a second referendum due to the fact his constituents are asking for one.
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T83:Y96
post Jun 28 2016, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 28 2016, 06:23 AM) *
The main problem with that scenario, is that it is pissing all over democracy - IMO a far more dangerous precedent than merely leaving the EU. sad.gif

Yes, but the fact is there were over 1,250 searches for "What is the EU?", over 600 searches for "European Union membership", and over 1,200 searches for "European Union" and "EU rules", and this is using Google Trends, whose numbers are taken down so that the highest number is 100. So for comparaison, I compared "EU rules" to "selfie" for the 24 hours after polls closed (00:30 GMT+2, Friday 24th to 00:30 GMT+2, Saturday 25th, in the UK only). "EU rules" was the most searched term out of the two.

It's a bit like if a girl searched "Can I get pregnant from my first sexual encounter?" after having an unprotected sexual intercourse the night before. Thousands of voters have done something potentially affecting the rest of their lives without knowing anything about their actions. So I agree with Dan and Joe, people who have no understanding whatsoever about what they are voting for should not vote on something so important.
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Christmas Cherry...
post Jun 28 2016, 08:32 AM
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This is a huge constitutional decision and there should've been targets set, such as 60% support to pull out the EU.
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vidsanta
post Jun 28 2016, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE(princess_lotti @ Jun 28 2016, 09:32 AM) *
This is a huge constitutional decision and there should've been targets set, such as 60% support to pull out the EU.


But that wouldn't make the issue go away - a majority for Brexit would be a gift for UKIP.

In 1979, there was the first referendum on Scottish Independence - they voted Yes to independence, but it failed due to just such a target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devo...eferendum,_1979

Ever since then, the SNP has grown in strength...

See a possible parallel between that situation, and UKIP?
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Christmas Cherry...
post Jun 28 2016, 09:01 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 28 2016, 09:52 AM) *
But that wouldn't make the issue go away - a majority for Brexit would be a gift for UKIP.

In 1979, there was the first referendum on Scottish Independence - they voted Yes to independence, but it failed due to just such a target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devo...eferendum,_1979

Ever since then, the SNP has grown in strength...

See a possible parallel between that situation, and UKIP?


So what would make the issue go away? There is always going to be people who wish to remain part of the EU and those who wish to leave. Also maybe we should clarify with that link you just sent me, it wasn't for Scottish Independence, but for Scottish devolution which is completely different and was passed in the 1997 referendum.
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Dobservance
post Jun 28 2016, 09:47 AM
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Despite not necessarily agreeing with the result, a referendum was the correct decision.
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richie
post Jun 28 2016, 09:57 AM
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For me, the next step is to leave England and Wales to it. If anybody wants to talk about a lack of democracy then it's the way a handful of marginal seats in England seem to be swaying the balance for all. I'd never been in favour of Scottish independence until 2014 but couldn't see anything other than Tory rule being the norm, especially with a reduction in the number of seats and a redrawing of constituency borders.

I might change my mind if both the Labour and Tory party split into the clear factions they are and a more proportional system of representation were brought in, but that isn't going to happen and we'd still have to deal with this awful result that the referendum gave us.
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Colm
post Jun 28 2016, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 28 2016, 07:23 AM) *
The main problem with that scenario, is that it is pissing all over democracy - IMO a far more dangerous precedent than merely leaving the EU. sad.gif



Democracy is overrated.
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vidsanta
post Jun 28 2016, 11:21 AM
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QUOTE(Taylor Jago @ Jun 28 2016, 09:32 AM) *
Yes, but the fact is there were over 1,250 searches for "What is the EU?", over 600 searches for "European Union membership", and over 1,200 searches for "European Union" and "EU rules", and this is using Google Trends, whose numbers are taken down so that the highest number is 100. So for comparaison, I compared "EU rules" to "selfie" for the 24 hours after polls closed (00:30 GMT+2, Friday 24th to 00:30 GMT+2, Saturday 25th, in the UK only). "EU rules" was the most searched term out of the two.

It's a bit like if a girl searched "Can I get pregnant from my first sexual encounter?" after having an unprotected sexual intercourse the night before. Thousands of voters have done something potentially affecting the rest of their lives without knowing anything about their actions. So I agree with Dan and Joe, people who have no understanding whatsoever about what they are voting for should not vote on something so important.


But why are you assuming that those searches were by 'Leave' voters - they could just as easily have been by 'Remainers'?

QUOTE(princess_lotti @ Jun 28 2016, 10:01 AM) *
So what would make the issue go away? There is always going to be people who wish to remain part of the EU and those who wish to leave. Also maybe we should clarify with that link you just sent me, it wasn't for Scottish Independence, but for Scottish devolution which is completely different and was passed in the 1997 referendum.


Sorry about that, I did mean to type 'devolution'.

QUOTE(Colm @ Jun 28 2016, 10:59 AM) *
Democracy is overrated.


That's one of the scariest things I've ever read here! sad.gif
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vidsanta
post Jun 28 2016, 11:24 AM
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The main problem with MP's trying to circumvent a democratic vote, is that it sets a VERY dangerous precedent!

What if the Tories were to lose the next election, then decide 'We don't like that result, so we'll ignore it..'

There's a word for governments that do that - DICTATORSHIP!
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Colm
post Jun 28 2016, 11:28 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 28 2016, 12:21 PM) *
That's one of the scariest things I've ever read here! sad.gif


Why are you scared?

In theory democracy makes sense. Unfortunately, people are easily manipulated by fear and will base their choices on whoever proposes to do something about perceived threats.

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vidsanta
post Jun 28 2016, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE(Colm @ Jun 28 2016, 12:28 PM) *
Why are you scared?

In theory democracy makes sense. Unfortunately, people are easily manipulated by fear and will base their choices on whoever proposes to do something about perceived threats.


But what is the alternative - having politicians arbitrarily choose which election results they accept??
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Colm
post Jun 28 2016, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 28 2016, 12:51 PM) *
But what is the alternative - having politicians arbitrarily choose which election results they accept??


I didn't say there was an alternative. I stated that democracy is over rated.

It may well be the best we have but it's still deeply flawed.


Again I wonder why you are scared of my comment.


This post has been edited by Colm: Jun 28 2016, 12:10 PM
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T83:Y96
post Jun 28 2016, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jun 28 2016, 11:21 AM) *
But why are you assuming that those searches were by 'Leave' voters - they could just as easily have been by 'Remainers'?

That's not the point. Whether they supported 'Leave' or 'Remain', they should have done those searches BEFORE going to the ballot box.

It's like being in a control room, pressing a big red button, and then reading the instructions manual to see what it does. It's stupid and potentially dangerous.
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Umi
post Jun 28 2016, 12:27 PM
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I think at the end of the day it is difficult to support parliament overturning the result. Would it be the best thing to do in terms of the UK's relationship with the EU? Sure. But it's still the government failing to respect the choice of the people and no matter how poorly informed that choice is, it's the one that was made. It's of course correct to say that the issue should never have gone to a referendum in the first place and the result is the perfect evidence of why that is, but MPs should have done something about that before it got to this point. They should have ran a better campaign, or prevented the issue from going to referendum in the first place.

Vidcapper is also correct that overturning the result gives UKIP exactly what they want (a reason for continued existence) as well as further cementing the belief of the ignorant that the establishment is out to get them. The people who voted to leave the EU will still want to do so because nothing will have convinced them otherwise, and the issue will not be put to bed.

Basically, if you overturn the referendum result then nothing has changed in the UK except it's now a significantly less friendly place for immigrants to be in and there's a lot of people randomly full of hate for their European neighbours. If you allow Brexit to go ahead then eventually people will realise how misplaced their hatred was and maybe the country can go back to being a progressive place.
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