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Christmas Cherry...
post Aug 25 2016, 06:49 PM
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serious thread time

just saw this up on FB and I thought it really did provoke discussion and thought, of course as the issues still bear such relevance today. This also lead me to think about an article where I read the french police forced a woman to remove her clothes as they weren't appropriate (she was wearing a burkini). As if this woman wasn't already being submitted to embarrassment enough it lead to horrific public comments:

QUOTE
A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”


Of course this is all boiling down to an overall debate of should we ban the burqa? I'm aware of the argument that in some countries the burqa is used to oppress woman however I think if a woman WANTS to wear a burqa (many of which do! not every woman wearing a burqa will be wearing one out of oppression) then this should be fully legal and accepted. It seems so backwards to see armed police on a beach forcing a woman to remove her clothes. To open up this debate to include all genders (and also to address the other half of the picture at the top), anyone should be able to wear what they like and feel confident and powerful, if someone wants to get their nipples out or whatever (gonna try keep this thread google friendly kink.gif) LET THEM. Why is it that people are so scared by female nipples (lemme use this as a good time to plug one of the best articles I read this month) if GOD FORBID one comes out in public (or on instagram :eyes:)? Also another hugely point to come out of that image, why should people be asked what they were wearing when they were sexually assaulted?

I understand the need for having clothing regulations either for health and safety issues, or for a place of work (I was going to tack education on there, but even then those regulations can go WAY too far, as I think I have previously ranted on about) but I think too much emphasis socially is placed on clothes people wear in their normal day to day life.

What are your thoughts in the few issues I raised here? Do you think that there should be clothing laws in place, and that people have a responsibility to dress in a certain way? Or should there be laws in place to stop discrimination about clothing? Do you think it is EVER going to be possible for these issues to die down?

Discuss
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santa's sack
post Aug 25 2016, 07:00 PM
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Why do these clothing laws exist? the only reasons we as a society have these ridiculous boundaries put on us is because of the sexist laws in a male dominant world that plagued our society for decades pre-1960's or thereabouts. to not give someone to freedom to wear what they want or to express themselves in any appropriate manner is literally taking away our personal human rights. there is no LOGICAL reason why people/women especially should have to curb their clothing choice in the 21st century whete for the most part we live in a world of equal opportunity (in the western world at least). the fact that we/some of us are still in the mindset that was created in the time of female oppression being a common and accepted thing is not only shocking but it's completely illogical when you think of it.

sorry this was worded badly i just have very strong opinions on this topic
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Andrew.
post Aug 25 2016, 07:05 PM
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Imo people should be allowed to wear what they want, so I see no problem with the burka?
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post Aug 25 2016, 07:09 PM
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Oh yeah I saw the whole burkini thing on Twitter this morning, quite frankly ridiculous that it's banned when it's pretty much the same as a wetsuit.

The thing that riles me up the most with double standards in society is the whole 'she's a $l*t' / 'he's such a lad' thing. And the fact that if a girl is raped, then people actually suggest things like 'she brought it on herself with what she was wearing'. That is so vile. People of any gender should be allowed to wear whatever they bloody want, such a judgemental and double standard filled society that we live in.
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post Aug 25 2016, 07:16 PM
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It's ridiculous really, these double standards women face regarding what they wear shouldn't even be a thing. People should be able to wear whatever the want, take care of their bodies and their appearance how ever they want to because at the end of the day it's their body. I've seen a social media ad for breast cancer awareness (I'll see if I can find a link to it) where they've had to use a man with moobs to demonstrate how to check for abnormalities etc as showing female breasts/nipples would have resulted in the video being taken down and deemed as sexual/inappropriate content. Breasts are not sexual. The only difference between female nips and males is that they can nurture babies which is a completely natural thing. While I'm on it, women shouldn't be made to feed their children in bathroom cubicals or made to do it as discretely as possible, like I said it's a natural part of life and isn't something people should be grossed out by or whatever it is that makes breast feeding such a big deal.

People just need to accept that other people have beliefs etc that are going to affect how they dress and that should be respected. Girls should be able to go out in whatever clothing they want without having to consider that they might get attacked for wearing less clothing, there's no excuses that can be made as to why raping someone is ever excusable or understandable and it's certainly not the victims fault for dressing a certain way.

Looking at it more broadly, not just with women but there's so many ridiculous stereotypes connected to the way someone dresses, girls wearing more "masculine" things (and vise versa) are assumed to be gay, i feel like judging someone's sexuality based on how they look is something everyone's done at some point and it's so dumb laugh.gif


This post has been edited by Lindsey ♌: Aug 25 2016, 07:17 PM
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*Tim
post Aug 25 2016, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE(Andr00w @ Aug 25 2016, 07:05 PM) *
Imo people should be allowed to wear what they want, so I see no problem with the burka?

I do. With a burqa you cannot be identified, which is kinda something you always need to be
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Christmas Cherry...
post Aug 25 2016, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE(*Tim @ Aug 25 2016, 08:23 PM) *
I do. With a burqa you cannot be identified, which is kinda something you always need to be


what about people wearing thick winter coats and scarves in the winter, should they be banned too? if a woman feels more confident in a burqa she should be allowed to wear one
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*Tim
post Aug 25 2016, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE(princess_lotti @ Aug 25 2016, 07:28 PM) *
what about people wearing thick winter coats and scarves in the winter, should they be banned too? if a woman feels more confident in a burqa she should be allowed to wear one

Winter clothes can be removed if needed. A burqa cannot be removed
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post Aug 25 2016, 07:35 PM
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The whole Burkini incident is ridiculous. It's just as bad as women in some Muslim countries being forced to cover up.

Burkas should definitely be allowed except the ones that cover the whole face.
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Christmas Cherry...
post Aug 25 2016, 07:41 PM
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i feel like we're fighting two separate issues here so not really too sure how to explain my viewpoint, i think the main disagreement is my views on identification are probably a lot more lax (could possibly be due to identification rules in britain being more relaxed than the rest of europe). yes terrorism is an omnipresent threat nowadays but how many terrorists have been thwarted by being asked for some ID or sth?! people could wear face masks, bike helmets idk, but people specifically want to ban the burqa.

in my opinion having freedom of expression is more important, who are the government to ban people expressing their culture in the way they wish? why should we enforce the negative stereotypes involving people who wear burqas? surely that would lead to more danger
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post Aug 25 2016, 07:53 PM
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I don't see how the 'identification' issue holds up, especially in a situation outside of passport controls/customs ect like the woman on the French beach that's got so much publicity who was literally just sitting on a beach.

I also don't buy the whole 'burqas are inherently oppressive' thing either. If looked at in the right context the burqa/hijab/burqini is actually a highly liberating garment in that a woman can wear it and (so the theory goes) not be judged by her age/appearance/race. This whole situation where the right are jumping on this debate under the guise of being feminist liberationists just stinks of "white men saving brown women from brown men" (Spivak 1988) realness and I don't like it.
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burbe
post Aug 25 2016, 07:55 PM
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I think people should be free to wear whatever they want. The whole Burkini row is ridiculous!

I can see where Tim is coming from regarding ID purposes. You literally have no idea who is under a full burka or even a niqab! I think they should be willing to remove the facial part if necessary for ID purposes but then that opens another can of worms. It's definitely a tough one!
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post Aug 25 2016, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE(princess_lotti @ Aug 25 2016, 08:41 PM) *
i feel like we're fighting two separate issues here so not really too sure how to explain my viewpoint, i think the main disagreement is my views on identification are probably a lot more lax (could possibly be due to identification rules in britain being more relaxed than the rest of europe). yes terrorism is an omnipresent threat nowadays but how many terrorists have been thwarted by being asked for some ID or sth?! people could wear face masks, bike helmets idk, but people specifically want to ban the burqa.

in my opinion having freedom of expression is more important, who are the government to ban people expressing their culture in the way they wish? why should we enforce the negative stereotypes involving people who wear burqas? surely that would lead to more danger


There was one incident of a woman having acid thrown in her face by someone she knew but didn't recognised because they were disguised in a Burqa. If she'd been able to see the face of the other woman, she may have been able to avoid it. But that's just one rather unlikely incident.
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Christmas Cherry...
post Aug 25 2016, 07:57 PM
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or maybe PEOPLE SHOULDN'T THROW ACID IN PEOPLES FACES?

This post has been edited by princess_lotti: Aug 25 2016, 07:58 PM
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Liаm
post Aug 25 2016, 07:58 PM
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I don't get how boobs can overflow from your bra and it's fine, but as soon as you see nipple that's when it's wrong. What's so bad about a nipple in general and in comparison to the rest of a boob rotf.gif

As for the burka thing, me, and I had this debate (well, argument lmao) with my mum yesterday, I just don't see what other people wear matters to anybody else. For example, a Muslim woman's belief and religion runs a bit deeper to me than "I don't like that that's different to what I know". I can see why peope feel a bit uncomfortable but I don't think there should be laws about what people can and can't wear. Especially with burkinis, that's basically punishing them for having a religion by not letting them go swimming, enjoy the gym or whatever because they can't do that without completely going against their religion. And exactly, you can't just assume that burkas are oppressive because people wear them for different reasons and have different explanations for doing so, in regards to their faith or as has been said to be able to go out and live their lives, have a career, without being judged on needless things like their physical appearance.
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Nadolig Llawen!
post Aug 25 2016, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE(princess_lotti @ Aug 25 2016, 08:57 PM) *
or maybe PEOPLE SHOULDN'T THROW ACID IN PEOPLES FACES?


Well of course not, but the point was more the fact that the woman used the burka for the purpose of concealing her identity in order to get close to her victim. I'm not saying ban the burka, I'm just giving an example of how it has been used inappropriately.
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post Aug 25 2016, 08:03 PM
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same could be said for ski masks/balaclavas, maybe we should ban them
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t=SpunderfulXmas
post Aug 25 2016, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE(Liаm @ Aug 25 2016, 08:58 PM) *
I don't get how boobs can overflow from your bra and it's fine, but as soon as you see nipple that's when it's wrong. What's so bad about a nipple in general and in comparison to the rest of a boob rotf.gif

omg yes this! I've never understood it either laugh.gif the only difference with females is their breasts are a bit more inflated, so then, if that's the reason why it's "wrong" to show them in public, then it makes this quote even more nonsensical wacko.gif

But in general, wear whatever the f*** you want. Hell you can wear a f***ing spacesuit in town, if that floats your boat :')
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Nadolig Llawen!
post Aug 25 2016, 08:06 PM
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Ok can someone please find the part where I said burkas should be banned? I'm struggling to see it myself...
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t=SpunderfulXmas
post Aug 25 2016, 08:13 PM
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Yah T Boy you're stating that you can see both sides of it, I get ya tongue.gif

As with everything, it can be used for the wrong reasons, which bring about so many issues, but really, there's not any good in supressing the cons which are few in number which will affect the many who use it for good (speaking generally now oops laugh.gif )
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