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> Intolerance - a double-edged sword?
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vidcapper
post Aug 10 2017, 06:52 AM
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We're always being told we should accept different cultures/religions/sexual orientations, etc - but how far should we go in doing so? ISTM a degree of caution is healthy.

What about intolerance of those who grew up in the era before political correctness became the new orthodoxy - they were raised to fit in with society as it then was, should they now be condemned merely because they are uncomfortable with the new situation?

I'm not saying prejudice is justified, only that we should try to understand the basis behind it, rather than condemning it out-of-hand.


This post has been edited by vidcapper: Aug 10 2017, 07:05 AM
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Chop-part-freak
post Aug 10 2017, 11:30 AM
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I hear intolerance spouted all the time, it's still rife and it hasn't gone away at all. It's just become unacceptable to put up with it, which is exactly how it should be. Soon as you accept it, it goes back to being the norm. One doesn't need to slag anyone off who is being intolerant (except those in public life) but one does need to let them know it's not acceptable calmly and rationally.
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vidcapper
post Aug 11 2017, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 10 2017, 12:30 PM) *
I hear intolerance spouted all the time, it's still rife and it hasn't gone away at all. It's just become unacceptable to put up with it, which is exactly how it should be. Soon as you accept it, it goes back to being the norm. One doesn't need to slag anyone off who is being intolerant (except those in public life) but one does need to let them know it's not acceptable calmly and rationally.


Does that apply to *any* form of intolerance?
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Poked Pumpkin🎃
post Aug 11 2017, 11:08 AM
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There is a difference between understanding the roots of prejudice and accepting it.
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Chop-part-freak
post Aug 11 2017, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 11 2017, 11:20 AM) *
Does that apply to *any* form of intolerance?


depends what specific type of intolerance you are talking about. Being intolerant of tolerance and reason is not acceptable. Happily going along with bigotry (which is what I'm talking about) is not. being tolerant of democratic parties is acceptable, being tolerant of those using violence for political gain is not because they dont believe in democracy is not.
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Liаm
post Aug 11 2017, 12:16 PM
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If you're gonna say "but we were born in a different time!!1!" then we'll say that too. We were born in a time where people just LEARN and get over the fact that not everyone is the same. Although actually when popchartfreak who is of your generation is posting as he is that's not even true. Why should we be tolerant of the choice of being a bigot and ignorant to any form of change when you are not tolerant of things people cannot help such as being transgender or gay or whatever the Daily Mail demographic is spouting hate towards today? It doesn't harm or affect your life apart from now and again having to not say tranny, faggot or paki towards them, not say "do you have to shove your homosexuality in my face!1!", simple stuff like that. Somebody being different causes absolutely no harm to you, but somebody being different and spreading hate speech DOES so the two are not comparable.
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TheStareCrow-dy
post Aug 12 2017, 06:25 AM
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Like I get that there are people who were born in different generations and maybe those generations were rampant with bigotry. I mean, there are people who were still alive when racism towards African-Americans was at an all-time high. And your past shouldn't define you. It's ultimately your actions and your choices that define your character, and if you chose to be a bigot and want to justify it, then that's on you, and you shouldn't be surprised if you get confronted for them. That's the society you live in now, the norms have changed, and if you fail to adjust then you're gonna get called out. That part I understand.

What I don't understand is why condemning prejudice and ignorance is seen as intolerance. The word "intolerance" is being thrown around and used to victimize those whose bigoted opinions are constantly aired and encouraged in front of millions of people, as if they weren't the ones spouting intolerance themselves. It's offensively hypocritical.

At the same time, there is a gray area between tolerating bigotry and jokingly threatening to kill someone because they said one problematic thing. And I've seen the latter on Tumblr, where someone says something problematic or they like a person who has said something problematic. The responses seem to range from "ummm explain why" to "yikes at your entire existence, you're trash, I hope you choke *gif of someone pointing a gun at you*". That doesn't help matters, that doesn't educate people, that only furthers the divide and raises questions and statements such as the ones stated in the OP.

I'm with popchartfreak on this one. Bigotry is wrong, and there shouldn't be a limit to tolerating other cultures and ways of life. But there has GOT to be a better way to send the message. If we're preaching intolerance to bigotry in a brash and violent matter then we're no different from them.

-

I feel like I made 80 different points so if anyone has questions feel free to ask, just please keep the dick-otry to a minimum. Thank you.
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5 Silas Frøkner
post Aug 12 2017, 11:56 AM
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My mantra on tolerance is "don't be a dick". If you don't understand something, google it or ask someone politely. Most people are willing to help you understand if you're friendly and polite and a little curious.

I have a friend who IDs as NB that I've known since I was like 3 so I ask them questions all the time to help me understand shit.

I think we truly understand things that happen to us or are our experiences in life. So most of this forum truly understands the sexuality being fluid and not a binary choice of bits in or out. But we can be tolerant and willing to learn about other experiences. I think anyone can be tolerant, they've got to make the choice to be open to new things and to learning and accepting things they don't understand. I don't have to experience what it's like to feel gender disphoria [sp?] in order accept and understand that there are people in the world who struggle with it every day and should be supported and accepted for who they are.

Intolerance has no place in civilised society. It's a fear of thing you don't understand but have the power at your disposal to understand. So it's just lazy and if someone feels discriminated against because they're intolerant, Good!! Think how those who you're intolerant of feel being discriminated against because of something they cannot change? You can become tolerant, they can't stop being LGBTQIA
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Liаm
post Aug 12 2017, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Aug 12 2017, 12:56 PM) *
My mantra on tolerance is "don't be a dick". If you don't understand something, google it or ask someone politely. Most people are willing to help you understand if you're friendly and polite and a little curious.

Exactly. If you can't be bothered to do that do not expect anyone to respect your ignorance because you can't be bothered to google something or ask the person in question. That takes a few minutes out of the day, which is nothing compared to the decades you've wasting dwelling on the old fashioned views.

You cannot be discriminated against if you are a straight white male who just cannot be bothered to call someone the correct pronoun or let people have sex with whichever gender/sex they want to. It doesn't work like that. You say "these people live in our country, speak our language!1!" well you live in this current time so get with this time. speak its language (one of the different pronouns, a lack of "faggot", "tranny", or the n word) and play by its rules of tolerance to people of colour, different sexualities, trans people etc.
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Poked Pumpkin🎃
post Aug 12 2017, 12:18 PM
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Exactly ^^^

And no one is going to begrudge you if you mistakenly say a wrong pronoun or something. Willful ignorance and downright insults, hiding behind, different times!!, is something else, however.
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vidcapper
post Aug 12 2017, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 11 2017, 12:54 PM) *
depends what specific type of intolerance you are talking about. Being intolerant of tolerance and reason is not acceptable.


How about being intolerant of intolerance? teresa.gif
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vidcapper
post Aug 12 2017, 03:02 PM
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Returning to the double-edged sword aspect, there is danger in being too tolerant - e.g. the child abuse scandals in places like Rochdale.

Police & child protection officers were so PC that they turned a blind eye to decades of appalling abuse.

Surely the rule of law should take precedence over political correctness?
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Poked Pumpkin🎃
post Aug 12 2017, 03:07 PM
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Wait, what??

What makes you link being p.c to ... that? :S
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Brett-Butler
post Aug 12 2017, 03:13 PM
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Perhaps it was because of the Labour MP Sarah Champion, who wrote an editorial in The Sun yesterday to that effect. (I won't link to it, because, you know, The Sun).
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Soy Adrián
post Aug 12 2017, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 12 2017, 04:02 PM) *
Returning to the double-edged sword aspect, there is danger in being too tolerant - e.g. the child abuse scandals in places like Rochdale.

Police & child protection officers were so PC that they turned a blind eye to decades of appalling abuse.

Surely the rule of law should take precedence over political correctness?

Why pick that out, though? Could we have prevented endemic sexual abuse in the Catholic Church by being less tolerant of Catholics?
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vidcapper
post Aug 12 2017, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE(MoistSummerFruit @ Aug 12 2017, 04:07 PM) *
Wait, what??

What makes you link being p.c to ... that? :S


It's one of the most prominent examples in recent years of being tolerant to the level of naivety

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Chop-part-freak
post Aug 12 2017, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Aug 12 2017, 05:32 PM) *
It's one of the most prominent examples in recent years of being tolerant to the level of naivety

No it isnt. A white extended family in lincs were just convicted of slavery. One might say perhaps the police, who had a job to do and failed miserably because of any personal fears are equally guilty of turning the other cheek in one case and not the other, different forces different attitudes. Thats not being tolerant thats being f***ing useless. They should have concentrated on the victims.

Asians of various origins who have an imported captive staff get caught and prosecuted in some areas of the country so doing your duty is not intolerance, using your logic, it is in fact being honourable.

Donald trump has just basically tweeted that nazis are free to murder with his refusal to condemn armed white nationalists. He is very quick to condemn, say, a woman by name, to the whole world, but cannot fire the nazi in the white house or say that terrorists on the streets of america are acting illegally against the constitution and civil rights. By the way, these people are not old people they are young people. The whole young cool/ old bigots cliche is no more true now than it was in 1940 or it was 2000 years ago. There is only wrong and right. Or right and far-right in this case. Yes young people are on the whole more tolerant than previous generations in the west, and better informed, but that doesnt mean its a generational problem unless you are talking old people using politically incorrect phrases with malice intent, cos i see that across generations, though i do see it without malice intent only in older people.

Charlottesville is what happens when you dont stamp on intolerance. Its no coincidence this is happening under this president, and would have been unthinkable even under Bush - cos yknow he didnt hire nazis and lick putins arse and threaten nuclear war.

Racist and unhinged.
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vidcapper
post Aug 13 2017, 05:47 AM
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QUOTE(popchartfreak @ Aug 12 2017, 10:42 PM) *
Charlottesville is what happens when you dont stamp on intolerance. Its no coincidence this is happening under this president, and would have been unthinkable even under Bush - cos yknow he didnt hire nazis and lick putins arse and threaten nuclear war.


It is Kim Jong-un whose been making the threats - all Trump has done is show he will not be intimidated.
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vidcapper
post Aug 13 2017, 06:07 AM
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The defensive reaction I've engendered by linking political correctness to child abuse, mostly by Muslim men, illustrates perfectly the point I've been trying to make. Namely that many people inured to PC are more concerned about not painting minorities in a poor light, than the victims of crime perpetrated by them.

Obviously I realize that 99.9% of people, from whatever group they belong to, are law-abiding - but I do not make excuses for the other 0.1% on cultural, ethnic, religious, etc. grounds. You have to live by the laws of the country you live in, and accept that where cultural traditions are incompatible with local laws, the latter must take priority.


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FreddyVsJupiter
post Aug 13 2017, 07:30 AM
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There's a difficulty with tarring all groups though. Where does it stop?

These Rotheram sex abuse groups were run by Muslim men largely, right, so does that say all Muslim men are child abusers or potential child abusers? Then look at the Catholic priests who were child abusers, and people like Jimmy Savile. What have they in common? all men. So then are all men child abusers or potential child abusers?

What about Hitler and Saddam Hussein? Both men with moustaches. So are all men with moustaches potential mass murderers?

From what I know of the Rotheram cases they weren't not rumbled because of people fearing to be called racist, they weren't rumbled because the victims didn't have the confidence to come forward that they would be believed, or perhaps didn't even want to tell people what had been going on because we still treat sex with cotton wool and kid gloves in this country, especially around younger people. How's a girl under 13 who hasn't even had a sex education class yet meant to explain to her parents she's been abused by not just one, but a bunch of adult men? The wikipedia article on it touches on elements of paid-for prostitution as well; were all the clients also Asian men or were there men of all ethnicities sprinkled in there too? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_chi...itation_scandal

To be honest any time I hear men like this talking about how white women are valued less in their society and so are easy pickings, I don't believe it. It seems very much like a get-out clause, an attempt to justify it to themselves, the words of a crazy extremist that might be picked up and parroted by others trying to square their actions with their beliefs.
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