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vidcapper
post Sep 1 2017, 06:48 AM
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news...munroe-11091764

L’Oreal’s first transgender model Munroe Bergdorf claims ‘all white people’s existence is drenched in racism’


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ISTM that stereotyping people on the grounds of skin colour is a pretty accurate definition of racism, so she has surely just done exactly what she is accusing others of. rolleyes.gif

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Harve
post Sep 1 2017, 07:11 AM
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Can we add 'ISTM' to the profanity filter tho.
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Soy Adrián
post Sep 1 2017, 08:11 AM
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In response to the title:

No, it's not.
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vidcapper
post Sep 1 2017, 08:37 AM
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ISTM wink.gif it was just as well I didn't include the Mail's version of the story, then. teresa.gif

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Klaus
post Sep 1 2017, 08:44 AM
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i still don't know what ISTM means
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vidcapper
post Sep 1 2017, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE(Harve @ Sep 1 2017, 08:11 AM) *
Can we add 'ISTM' to the profanity filter tho.


How come? Is that abbreviation now deemed un-PC now? huh.gif

QUOTE(Soy Adrián @ Sep 1 2017, 09:11 AM) *
In response to the title:

No, it's not.


How about 'double standards' then?

The problem is not so much what she is saying, but that she is accusing *every* white person of being racist, which necessarily includes all of us here who abhor racism.


This post has been edited by vidcapper: Sep 1 2017, 08:45 AM
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Iz~
post Sep 1 2017, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 1 2017, 09:44 AM) *
How come? Is that abbreviation now deemed un-PC now? huh.gif


Yes.

That and being a condescending way of weaseling out of fully committing to your statements.

Also, to expand on Soy's point, no, because it's talking about the social norms that have come about through the history of ethnicities where white people have been advantaged by their ability to seize... everything and that should be pretty well acknowledged.
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vidcapper
post Sep 1 2017, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE(Klaus @ Sep 1 2017, 09:44 AM) *
i still don't know what ISTM means


'It Seems To Me'

It's similar to IMO : 'In My Opinion'

QUOTE(Iz~ @ Sep 1 2017, 10:11 AM) *
Yes.


Since when - and who decides which words & phrases are on the 'banned' list?

QUOTE

That and being a condescending way of weaseling out of fully committing to your statements.
Even if you're just opening up a topic for discussion?

QUOTE
Also, to expand on Soy's point, no, because it's talking about the social norms that have come about through the history of ethnicities where white people have been advantaged by their ability to seize... everything and that should be pretty well acknowledged.


But how do you quantify if, or how much, any given white person has benefited from oppression? Clearly someone descended from labourers has had little or no gain, whereas a person whose inherited wealth was derived directly from the slave trade has benefited greatly.

Also, which specific 'social norms' do you refer to?
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Qassändra
post Sep 1 2017, 11:49 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 1 2017, 10:43 AM) *
But how do you quantify if, or how much, any given white person has benefited from oppression? Clearly someone descended from labourers has had little or no gain, whereas a person whose inherited wealth was derived directly from the slave trade has benefited greatly.

Do you really think the advantages of empire were entirely individual and only went to families? We live in an exceptionally wealthy country which built much of that wealth on the exploited riches of the world's biggest empire. There's a reason the British working class are broadly better off than, say, the Austrian working class.

British Petroleum, Barclays, HSBC, pretty much the entirety of the North West, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Bristol - all companies, cities, regions built off the fortunes of the resources we exploited by invading and occupying Commonwealth nations. That in turn generated other economic activity. Once we disestablished that empire our cities and towns had the economic base from that wealth to manage the transition and produce the country we see today.

Do you really think you're the first person to ask these questions? Don't you have even the slightest bit of intellectual curiosity to think past the first argument that comes into your head?


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jafetsigfinns
post Sep 1 2017, 11:53 AM
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Claiming that every living white person's existence is drenched in racism is as big of a blanket statement as they get. Besides let's not forget that black people selling and buying black slaves was also a huge thing in the slave trade so lets not start condemning people for their ancestors' actions, mkay?

Also how in the world is "It Seems To Me" un-PC? lmao. I just can't.
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Qassändra
post Sep 1 2017, 12:02 PM
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And even if you interpret the statement as "all white people are racist", that isn't a remotely controversial concept for psychologists. There's legions of evidence through implicit association test studies that almost all white people have at least unconscious biases against black people (or those of other minorities) - regardless of whether they'd consider themselves racist or not.

Nobody likes to consider themselves racist, so unconscious bias means we latch onto other reasons why we discriminate against somebody of another colour, but the reasons will often be things that we happily allow to go by if someone of our own race had them (to take the most famous example, how often people will leap to justify cases where black people are killed while being arrested by the police that will typically go along the lines of "well they did something wrong so they deserved it" when they wouldn't ever dream of arguing it was okay for a white person to be killed without trial for carrying drugs).

Just because it's an unconscious bias that we all have doesn't mean we can't do anything about it. What it means is that we have to make a conscious effort to be guided by our better angels and self-examine whether our judgements on somebody may be influenced by their skin colour and whether we might not give someone of our own race doing the same the benefit of the doubt.
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Qassändra
post Sep 1 2017, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE(jafetsigfinns @ Sep 1 2017, 12:53 PM) *
Claiming that every living white person's existence is drenched in racism is as big of a blanket statement as they get. Besides let's not forget that black people selling and buying black slaves was also a huge thing in the slave trade so lets not start condemning people for their ancestors' actions, mkay?

Are you really going to attempt to argue that Africa was enriched by the slave trade in the way America and Europe were? And racism goes beyond just the slave trade. There were another good 150 years of empire after Britain stopped trading in slaves.

QUOTE(jafetsigfinns @ Sep 1 2017, 12:53 PM) *
Also how in the world is "It Seems To Me" un-PC? lmao. I just can't.

It's not 'un-PC', it's just a grating tic of his.
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Iz~
post Sep 1 2017, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 1 2017, 10:43 AM) *
Since when - and who decides which words & phrases are on the 'banned' list?


QUOTE(jafetsigfinns @ Sep 1 2017, 12:53 PM) *
Also how in the world is "It Seems To Me" un-PC? lmao. I just can't.


We need to control the way people speak and abbreviations that annoy me are first on that list (but no, I'm joking, it's not). And yes, the grating tic stuff. Besides, vidcapper, you always claim you're "sardonic".

Yes, yes, it isn't just white people who've done terrible things to other races in the name of empire, the Japanese did plenty to try and catch up in their imperial phase and every people group that had an empire was oppressive in some way towards those different from them. But given Europeans conquered so much of the world and took it upon themselves to exploit those they conquered for material gain, that's the principal impact that's been left upon the world and it's still being felt as countries that could have been on a par with Western civilisation are behind and less developed because of the poor situations they were left in - the few that were relatively untouched or were let go of empire relatively early in East Asia and the Americas (and even then for America, only after the near complete genocide of the indigenous peoples) are in much better positions today than Africa and South Asia.
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Qassändra
post Sep 1 2017, 12:26 PM
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I mean, if your explanation for why Africa and South America are so starkly worse off isn't down to empire (and if it is, why is "all white people's existence in the nations that benefited from that" controversial?), then your explanation can only really be race-based*. Which, uh, might possibly affirm Munroe's point a bit.


(unless of course there are other entirely coincidental factors you want to suggest that mysteriously apply near-universally across those continents along race lines, in which case i'm ALL EARS)


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jafetsigfinns
post Sep 1 2017, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Sep 1 2017, 12:06 PM) *
Are you really going to attempt to argue that Africa was enriched by the slave trade in the way America and Europe were? And racism goes beyond just the slave trade. There were another good 150 years of empire after Britain stopped trading in slaves.

That's not what I said, but like Iz just said: It wasn't just white people who did terrible things in the past. I just honestly don't understand how this unconscious racist bias talk and saying that every single white person's existence is drenched in racism is going to help solve the problem. I just don't understand how saying that "because some white people are racist the rest of them must be as well" is any better than any other stereotype about race, gender or sexuality.
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Qassändra
post Sep 1 2017, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE(jafetsigfinns @ Sep 1 2017, 01:31 PM) *
I just honestly don't understand how this unconscious racist bias talk and saying that every single white person's existence is drenched in racism is going to help solve the problem. I just don't understand how saying that "because some white people are racist the rest of them must be as well" is any better than any other stereotype about race, gender or sexuality.

It's finding that the vast majority of white people have unconscious prejudices against those of other races, regardless of whether or not they'd consider themselves racist - that isn't a stereotype, that's hard evidence which comes out whenever these things are tested. It's not that hard to understand. It helps us to solve the problem by establishing the starting point that all of us are prone to making judgements and decisions on a racist basis without realising it. Once we have that starting point, we can make a concerted effort to check ourselves - am I really making this judgement or decision entirely for this reason? Without that starting point, plenty of people will carry on discriminating without even pausing. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is being discriminated against by someone who doesn't even know that they're doing it - are you telling me you don't see how it's of any use to at least get them to the starting point of being aware they might be doing it?

These aren't just pie in the sky theories - they're solid evidence that is borne out in the discrimination that reveals itself on a systematic level when you look at the statistics. It's why "blind" recruitment policies always find a stark difference when employers look at CVs without knowing the race and name of the applicant. None of those people will have consciously thought "I'm not hiring that person because they're black" - they'll have found justifications for doing so that they wouldn't have made for an equivalent white person. We know these kinds of things happen because of the countless studies that show they don't when the exact same CVs are submitted as if they were for someone white!


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vidcapper
post Sep 1 2017, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE(Qassändra @ Sep 1 2017, 12:49 PM) *
Do you really think the advantages of empire were entirely individual and only went to families? We live in an exceptionally wealthy country which built much of that wealth on the exploited riches of the world's biggest empire. There's a reason the British working class are broadly better off than, say, the Austrian working class.

British Petroleum, Barclays, HSBC, pretty much the entirety of the North West, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Bristol - all companies, cities, regions built off the fortunes of the resources we exploited by invading and occupying Commonwealth nations. That in turn generated other economic activity. Once we disestablished that empire our cities and towns had the economic base from that wealth to manage the transition and produce the country we see today.

Do you really think you're the first person to ask these questions? Don't you have even the slightest bit of intellectual curiosity to think past the first argument that comes into your head?


My position is - I simply don't subscribe to the self-hating left-wing PC ideology.

Like every moral person, I feel regret over what was done in the name of the British Empire, but I feel no guilt over it. Guilt implies direct responsibility, which obviously cannot apply to actions that occurred centuries back.


QUOTE(Iz~ @ Sep 1 2017, 01:17 PM) *
Yes, yes, it isn't just white people who've done terrible things to other races in the name of empire, the Japanese did plenty to try and catch up in their imperial phase and every people group that had an empire was oppressive in some way towards those different from them. But given Europeans conquered so much of the world and took it upon themselves to exploit those they conquered for material gain, that's the principal impact that's been left upon the world and it's still being felt as countries that could have been on a par with Western civilisation are behind and less developed because of the poor situations they were left in - the few that were relatively untouched or were let go of empire relatively early in East Asia and the Americas (and even then for America, only after the near complete genocide of the indigenous peoples) are in much better positions today than Africa and South Asia.


I can only point out that not *every* result of imperialism is negative - the Monty Python 'What have the Romans ever done for us?' scene illustrates that point.


QUOTE(Qassändra @ Sep 1 2017, 01:43 PM) *
It's finding that the vast majority of white people have unconscious prejudices against those of other races, regardless of whether or not they'd consider themselves racist - that isn't a stereotype, that's hard evidence which comes out whenever these things are tested.


But if it's unconscious, then we can hardly be blamed for it - and besides, unconscious prejudices are not restricted to Caucasians.
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Brett-Butler
post Sep 1 2017, 03:15 PM
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...and she's been sacked. I guess that L'Oreal realised that white folk buy shampoo.
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Qassändra
post Sep 1 2017, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 1 2017, 03:23 PM) *
My position is - I simply don't subscribe to the self-hating left-wing PC ideology.

Like every moral person, I feel regret over what was done in the name of the British Empire, but I feel no guilt over it. Guilt implies direct responsibility, which obviously cannot apply to actions that occurred centuries back.

Munroe's point wasn't about guilt or direct moral responsibility for the British Empire. It was that we have all benefited from racism. Which part of that was wrong or hypocritical?

QUOTE(vidcapper @ Sep 1 2017, 03:23 PM) *
But if it's unconscious, then we can hardly be blamed for it - and besides, unconscious prejudices are not restricted to Caucasians.

It's not about blame, it's about doing what we can to overcome it. And no, they're not confined to Caucasians, but as the race which broadly dominates positions of power and the world economy it means that our unconscious prejudices are the ones which have the most impact on other races.

We know that it has a detrimental impact. To jump to the get-out clauses on finding out about unconscious prejudice rather than taking the approach of "right, this is a tendency we lapse into which hurts other people - what can we do about it to mitigate this?" is to effectively say you're fine with other races being disadvantaged as a consequence of tendencies we know about because que sera sera. That's the point at which it starts to step across from an unconscious prejudice to a conscious one.


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popchartfreak
post Sep 1 2017, 07:40 PM
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just to underline Qassandra's point about subconscious racism, even "leftie" students display this in rating their uni lecturers - latest stats suggest non-white and non-male profs get consistently less marks than white males.

Many people are overtly bigoted (yes including some non-whites, but that isn't anything to offer as an excuse for centuries of oppression or downright extermination from most of the big "white" nations). Given the historical actions of white nations over the last few centuries, then treating everyone fairly is the very very least that can be expected.

Since I was a child I have been embarrassed and angry at the unfairness of racism. I also spent 2 years in a non-white country as a child, where it was easy to find on occasion you were the only white face on a bus for instance, which made me feel like a bit of an insecure outsider even though everyone spoke English to at least a small degree - and incidentally a country that overthrew it's British colonial roots following the Japanese invasion, and that existed as a massive UK-enriching key port and armed forces base.

The impact on me has been to go out of my way to be more considerate and cut a bit more slack towards non-majority people, as it's the least we can do for what our ancestors did. This is not "self-hating" this is "non-self-loving".

As for the "what have the Romans" quote being dragged out inappropriately again, this is shortly before a bunch of non-Romans get crucified. The Romans are in power. They have the money. Everyone else is subservient and making comments about infrastructure (designed to help the Empire, built by slaves) being in some way some sort of coherent argument that everything's all right then cos we got fab straight roads and shit-houses by way of compensation for being slaves and all, really DOES miss the point. Python is NOT about justifying inequality, it's about ridiculing the ruling classes and anything else that needs taking down a peg.

Missing the point muchly.
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