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Doctor Blind
post Oct 27 2017, 05:35 PM
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So this afternoon the Catalan parliament declared independence from the Kingdom of Spain... and Madrid have now approved a plan to impose direct rule.

Both sides seem to be driving each other closer and closer to disaster, surely the EU needs to step in and try and get some calm talks/discussions under way and avoid this stepping up of confrontation. It is clear that the Spanish government are fearful of any kind of free and fair vote but unfortunately that seems to be in my mind the only democratic solution that will solve this crisis.

Mess.


This post has been edited by Doctor Death: Oct 27 2017, 06:20 PM
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Buttered Muffin
post Oct 27 2017, 05:45 PM
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I agree - that is the only solution. The Spanish state does seem intimidated by the idea and hide behind their Constitution, even though there is usually less support for independence in Cataluña than in Scotland. Given a fair vote and a government campaign, it is highly likely it stays, ESPECIALLY with a SENSIBLE approach in referendum of a 65% majority needed to vote for change.

The EU wants to promote 'togetherness' and so won't get involved and the UK can't, weakened by Brexit and also having the Scottish and NI and maybe even Welsh and North East England independence issues post Brexit.

I don't think anything material will change right now and Spain will impose direct rule.
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The Diplomat
post Oct 27 2017, 06:36 PM
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I think personally Catalonia should be allowed a free and fair vote on independence, Spain is being a bit dictatorial I think by denying this.

Its not as if there are were ever any armed independence groups based there (to my knowledge) unlike the Basque Country.


This post has been edited by Hissin🎇Sparkler: Oct 27 2017, 06:43 PM
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Popchartfreak
post Oct 27 2017, 07:09 PM
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the quickest solution would be for the catalonian Parliament to call an election - that would give them a clear idea of how much support there really is for independence. As less than half the electorate voted in the unofficial ref (and presumably non-supporters would refuse to give it credence by voting) it can hardly be called a decisive and clear result. However, for the same reason Brexiteers don't want another vote to sort it out once and for all, neither do the leaders of the Catalan Parliament: fear of losing.

The only option really is to agree to a vote down the line, after Brexit, when the people can see what going it alone may mean to their economy (they would have to leave the EU or else Scotland would have a mighty good reason not to stay in, and Belgium would never agree anyway).

On a biased personal level, some have commented that the movement is based on cultural differences and an unwillingness to fund the poorer parts of Spain because they are relatively wealthy and think they can do even better alone without having to subsidise the rest of Spain. I love Barcelona and the area to bits, but I'm considering holidaying in future in the rest of Spain if it goes independent - the EU bits - or just stick to the Canaries.
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Doctor Blind
post Oct 27 2017, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE(Chop-part-freak @ Oct 27 2017, 08:09 PM) *
the quickest solution would be for the catalonian Parliament to call an election - that would give them a clear idea of how much support there really is for independence. As less than half the electorate voted in the unofficial ref (and presumably non-supporters would refuse to give it credence by voting) it can hardly be called a decisive and clear result. However, for the same reason Brexiteers don't want another vote to sort it out once and for all, neither do the leaders of the Catalan Parliament: fear of losing.


I believe that they did offer to hold an election on 20 December but the Spanish government refused this. That tells me that the Spanish government are more fearful of losing IMO (which chimes with their approach to this crisis so far)! Also at the last election explicitly pro-Independence parties gained around 48% of the vote whilst anti-independence parties gained 39%.


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Suedehead2
post Oct 27 2017, 08:38 PM
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The general assumption has been that the separatists would lose a properly conducted referendum. However, since the EU referendum here, the Spanish government probably think that is too high a risk.

On the other point, the EU haven't intervened because it is entirely an internal matter for Spain. It's been strange to hear the Leave supporters who have done little but complain that all EU member states run by Brussels complaining about the EU not getting involved.
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Mart!n
post Oct 27 2017, 08:45 PM
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Does this mean if Catalonia get independence they can enter the Eurovision Song Contest, and have their own Football team in the World Cup and Euros unsure.gif
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Brett-Butler
post Oct 27 2017, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE(Hocus Pokus @ Oct 27 2017, 09:45 PM) *
Does this mean if Catalonia get independence they can enter the Eurovision Song Contest, and have their own Football team in the World Cup and Euros unsure.gif


1. They could enter the Eurovision song contest if they become a member of the European Broadcasting Union in their own right on independence.
2. They could have their own football team, but would need FIFA/UEFA's approval to take part in World Cup/Euro championships. I can't see them doing so willingly, especially given how hard Gibraltar had to fight through the Court of Arbitration of Sport to become members of both bodies, although I do appreciate Gibraltar is a different situation to Catalonia.
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The Diplomat
post Oct 27 2017, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 27 2017, 09:38 PM) *
The general assumption has been that the separatists would lose a properly conducted referendum. However, since the EU referendum here, the Spanish government probably think that is too high a risk.

On the other point, the EU haven't intervened because it is entirely an internal matter for Spain. It's been strange to hear the Leave supporters who have done little but complain that all EU member states run by Brussels complaining about the EU not getting involved.


Yes but the Spanish government continue what they are doing with direct rule and not allowing a referendum, support for Catalan independence in Catalonia is only going to go up I can see.
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Doctor Blind
post Oct 27 2017, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 27 2017, 09:38 PM) *
On the other point, the EU haven't intervened because it is entirely an internal matter for Spain. It's been strange to hear the Leave supporters who have done little but complain that all EU member states run by Brussels complaining about the EU not getting involved.


True, but the fact that the EU did not condemn the actions of the Spanish government with the Spanish Guardia Civil viciously attacking peaceful civilians of all ages on 1 October is awful and I can see now why so many of the left were in favour of voting leave.
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Suedehead2
post Oct 27 2017, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE(Hissin🎇Sparkler @ Oct 27 2017, 10:24 PM) *
Yes but the Spanish government continue what they are doing with direct rule and not allowing a referendum, support for Catalan independence in Catalonia is only going to go up I can see.

Probably, yes. I didn't say I agreed with the Spanish government's strategy.
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Steve201
post Oct 27 2017, 10:43 PM
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Up the Republic!!!
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Popchartfreak
post Oct 28 2017, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Oct 27 2017, 09:38 PM) *
The general assumption has been that the separatists would lose a properly conducted referendum. However, since the EU referendum here, the Spanish government probably think that is too high a risk.

On the other point, the EU haven't intervened because it is entirely an internal matter for Spain. It's been strange to hear the Leave supporters who have done little but complain that all EU member states run by Brussels complaining about the EU not getting involved.


NIgel "cough" farage. Anything to shit-stir on anything liable to destroy the EU and let his fascist pals gain power all over the place.....
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Popchartfreak
post Oct 28 2017, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE(Doctor Death @ Oct 27 2017, 11:00 PM) *
True, but the fact that the EU did not condemn the actions of the Spanish government with the Spanish Guardia Civil viciously attacking peaceful civilians of all ages on 1 October is awful and I can see now why so many of the left were in favour of voting leave.


Sending in the heavy mob is never a strategy that works in democracies (works very well in non-democracies), that applies to the UK as well as every other country in the world.

That said, while I was on holiday the local TV was taken up with a lot of the sentiment in catalonia at the mo that is anti-foreigner as well as anti-Spain, so that makes it not entirely unlike Brexit - though more recent demos were more specific in aim: to stop foreigners buying up housing and pushing up prices - this means 100% leaving the EU if it is an aim. Effectively what they wanted were tourists on short visits spending money, but not people moving there.

I was amused by the morning BBC interview with a supporter of independence explaining why he wanted it:

"I want a future for my children which will keep them happy and wealthy, HEALTHY....!" slip of the tongue or subliminally accurate....?
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Popchartfreak
post Oct 28 2017, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE(Doctor Death @ Oct 27 2017, 08:45 PM) *
I believe that they did offer to hold an election on 20 December but the Spanish government refused this. That tells me that the Spanish government are more fearful of losing IMO (which chimes with their approach to this crisis so far)! Also at the last election explicitly pro-Independence parties gained around 48% of the vote whilst anti-independence parties gained 39%.


other way round. The government have just announced elections for December which the Catalonian Parliament were against, preferring to see the illegal, unofficial and mostly unattended referendum as a definitive statement for everyone in Catalonia, which it clearly wasn't.

meanwhile the right-wing UK muckrakers are headlining Project Fear if Spain fails to allow Catalonia to break away: the end of The EU, civil war and catastrophe ahead. It's almost as if they had an agenda rather than an interest in democracy.....
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Buttered Muffin
post Oct 28 2017, 12:24 PM
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But surely the EU either butts into everyone's business, including UK, or stays out?

I think with Spain's reactions, being the dominant, status quo, established power in control, vs Cataluña, the Other, it has been seen as represssive and Cataluña has won the global media war and people now sympathise with them. This is especially true with how ElPais tried to have an agenda for he state as thick as the Sun's oe Daily Mail's, which only people IN Spain responded positively to. If Spain had reacted differently, with a referendum, needed 65%, then everything would have bren calmer and the world would not have taken as much notice. Nowx everyone thinks of Spain as fractured and Cataluña as repressed and it is the government's frightened responses to blame.
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Popchartfreak
post Oct 28 2017, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE(Poked Pumpkin🎃 @ Oct 28 2017, 01:24 PM) *
But surely the EU either butts into everyone's business, including UK, or stays out?

I think with Spain's reactions, being the dominant, status quo, established power in control, vs Cataluña, the Other, it has been seen as represssive and Cataluña has won the global media war and people now sympathise with them. This is especially true with how ElPais tried to have an agenda for he state as thick as the Sun's oe Daily Mail's, which only people IN Spain responded positively to. If Spain had reacted differently, with a referendum, needed 65%, then everything would have bren calmer and the world would not have taken as much notice. Nowx everyone thinks of Spain as fractured and Cataluña as repressed and it is the government's frightened responses to blame.


I think you're probably right, but the government also has a duty to take into account the wishes of the 57% who didn't vote for Independence - at least with Brexit the government can claim people had a chance to vote officially with "proper" campaigns and literature, ditto Scotland, but that isn't the case here, The election will be the first test proper, and then if that goes the way of pro-Indie parties one would assume that Spain would be forced into allowing a real democratic vote where the anti-Indie vote can be fairly represented. As I say, it would also become clearer that it will also mean Catalexit (Can I claim to be the first to coin the phrase?) © popchartfreak? That may affect sentiment one way or the other.....
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Buttered Muffin
post Oct 28 2017, 02:11 PM
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Absolutely!

If cooler heads had prevailed and the state had respondedlogically, offered solutions, and not brute force, this wouldn't have been blow up into such a huge crisis watched across the globe. Now, the, probably minority, independistas have won the media argument.
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andrew1993
post Oct 28 2017, 02:40 PM
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Good on Catalonia. That’s all I’ll say because I can get heated af about this laugh.gif
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Brett-Butler
post Oct 28 2017, 02:51 PM
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To quote someone on Twitter - the Nazis are rising & Spain is on the brink of civil war. The 1930s are back with a vengeance.
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