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> Man, 78, arrested over fatal stabbing of suspected burglar
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vidcapper
post Apr 4 2018, 03:06 PM
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/ap...-burglar-london

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-55...h-break-in.html

Looks like debate on self-defence is going to start up again...
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Suedehead2
post Apr 4 2018, 04:49 PM
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That depends on what happens. An arrest in circumstances like this is standard practice, partly because it grants the suspect additional rights. If the burglar was stabbed with the screwdriver, I suspect there will be no charges against the householder.
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vidcapper
post Apr 5 2018, 05:58 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 4 2018, 05:49 PM) *
That depends on what happens. An arrest in circumstances like this is standard practice, partly because it grants the suspect additional rights. If the burglar was stabbed with the screwdriver, I suspect there will be no charges against the householder.


It *is* standard practice, yes - but in such cases, even the leftist Guardian doesn't turn down the chance for headlines.

IMO the law on self-defense is unfit for purpose...
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Suedehead2
post Apr 5 2018, 07:20 AM
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There is nothing wrong with the law. How do you determine whether it was self-defemce without asking questions? You surely don't want a world where a householder can simply say "It was self-defence mate" and that is the end of the matter.
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vidcapper
post Apr 5 2018, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 5 2018, 08:20 AM) *
There is nothing wrong with the law. How do you determine whether it was self-defemce without asking questions? You surely don't want a world where a householder can simply say "It was self-defence mate" and that is the end of the matter.


Well, since you ask:

IMO once someone breaks into you home they become fair game - I would not require the occupant be attacked first before they could respond with force.

I'm not saying there should be no checks & balances - it would still be considered excessive if you BBQ'd a burglar after killing him rolleyes.gif , but you shouldn't have to wait until your own life was in danger before the law kicks in on your side.
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Suedehead2
post Apr 5 2018, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 09:00 AM) *
Well, since you ask:

IMO once someone breaks into you home they become fair game - I would not require the occupant be attacked first before they could respond with force.

I'm not saying there should be no checks & balances - it would still be considered excessive if you BBQ'd a burglar after killing him rolleyes.gif , but you shouldn't have to wait until your own life was in danger before the law kicks in on your side.

But how do you verify that before questioning someone? If Farage stepped through my front door without being invited in, can I just stab him without worrying about the consequences?
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Popchartfreak
post Apr 5 2018, 08:51 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 5 2018, 09:29 AM) *
But how do you verify that before questioning someone? If Farage stepped through my front door without being invited in, can I just stab him without worrying about the consequences?


I think the world would be on your side in that case, but in any other case, no....... tongue.gif
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Popchartfreak
post Apr 5 2018, 08:55 AM
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Speaking as someone who's house was broken into while I was in bed, had my wages stolen and a pair of gloves, I think murdering the no-doubt-kid who did it would be a case of over-reacting and it would lead to the perfect excuse for murder and getting away with it - a bit like that South African athlete who murdered his girlfriend because he thought she was a burglar tried to claim...

Justifying murder is NEVER right. Self-defense is the only argument and you better be bloody sure and call an ambulance and police immediately...
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vidcapper
post Apr 5 2018, 09:33 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 5 2018, 09:29 AM) *
But how do you verify that before questioning someone? If Farage stepped through my front door without being invited in, can I just stab him without worrying about the consequences?


In your scenario did he ring/knock first? Did you have the chain on?
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vidcapper
post Apr 5 2018, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Apr 5 2018, 09:55 AM) *
Justifying murder is NEVER right. Self-defense is the only argument and you better be bloody sure and call an ambulance and police immediately...


Which is why I advocate extending the definition of self-defence to include defence of property as well as person - it would not *be* murder then.
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Suedehead2
post Apr 5 2018, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 10:33 AM) *
In your scenario did he ring/knock first? Did you have the chain on?

Let's say that my story (which you seem to think should automatically be believed) is that I opened the door to him and that ha brushed me aside and walked through the door. I asked him to leave. When he didn't budge and started to get angry, I stabbed him.
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vidcapper
post Apr 5 2018, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 5 2018, 10:38 AM) *
Let's say that my story (which you seem to think should automatically be believed) is that I opened the door to him and that ha brushed me aside and walked through the door. I asked him to leave. When he didn't budge and started to get angry, I stabbed him.


If it were 'Joe Bloggs' who did that, then I would say you were right to stab him - I just wonder why you used Nigel Farage for your example - did you think I would advocate different rules if it were him?

To summarize though - my position is : people who don't respect others rights, don't deserve to have their own rights protected.

[Awaits more strawman arguments to try & convince me otherwise]
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Popchartfreak
post Apr 5 2018, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 10:37 AM) *
Which is why I advocate extending the definition of self-defence to include defence of property as well as person - it would not *be* murder then.


Defending your wallet against someone is murder. That isn't the law and never should be. If you have insurance (which you should have) it saves you risking getting killed to try and save money.

So someone claiming they were getting pickpocketed in the street can murder someone?

What about a burglar who is being attacked and then tries to defend himself against deadly force? If his only choice is death he has nothing to lose other than to kill the home-owner. So the death rate would climb of home-owners.

Talk about extreme...

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Popchartfreak
post Apr 5 2018, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 10:48 AM) *
If it were 'Joe Bloggs' who did that, then I would say you were right to stab him - I just wonder why you used Nigel Farage for your example - did you think I would advocate different rules if it were him?

To summarize though - my position is : people who don't respect others rights, don't deserve to have their own rights protected.

[Awaits more strawman arguments to try & convince me otherwise]


Your argument is petty and flawed. The law isn't about over-reacting, it's about keeping law and order. Your version of utopia is the Wild West. Too many Cowboys and Indians films I think, where you get to decide what is and isn't justifiable and society stops being civilised. Giving people Carte Blanche to become judge jury and executioner is so wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin....
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vidcapper
post Apr 5 2018, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ Apr 5 2018, 10:56 AM) *
Your argument is petty and flawed. The law isn't about over-reacting, it's about keeping law and order. Your version of utopia is the Wild West. Too many Cowboys and Indians films I think, where you get to decide what is and isn't justifiable and society stops being civilised. Giving people Carte Blanche to become judge jury and executioner is so wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin....


Society is civilised - criminals are not!
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Popchartfreak
post Apr 5 2018, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 11:17 AM) *
Society is civilised - criminals are not!


Lawlessness is not civilised. A pickpocket does not deserve instant death. That sounds a bit like you should move to Saudi Arabia (where you would quickly find yourself in prison for having opinions that don't quite go with the authoritarian regime) - and even there they would only chop off your hands for pickpocketing.
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Suedehead2
post Apr 5 2018, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 10:48 AM) *
If it were 'Joe Bloggs' who did that, then I would say you were right to stab him - I just wonder why you used Nigel Farage for your example - did you think I would advocate different rules if it were him?

To summarize though - my position is : people who don't respect others rights, don't deserve to have their own rights protected.

[Awaits more strawman arguments to try & convince me otherwise]

I'm truly alarmed that anyone can seriously think this. There is no sign of a forced entry although I have provided a story to cover that. All Farage has done is refuse to leave when asked. I have provided no evidence for that or for my assertion that he started to get aggressive. Yet, on the basis of my uncorroborated story, you think killing him would be justified. That way lies anarchy.
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vidcapper
post Apr 5 2018, 10:51 AM
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QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ Apr 5 2018, 11:27 AM) *
I'm truly alarmed that anyone can seriously think this.


Then we have something in common.

I am alarmed - at how blasť people can be over crime. The softly softly approach has been tried for years and has utterly failed - that's why we need a get tough policy!
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Suedehead2
post Apr 5 2018, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 11:51 AM) *
Then we have something in common.

I am alarmed - at how blasť people can be over crime. The softly softly approach has been tried for years and has utterly failed - that's why we need a get tough policy!

Until the last year or so crime had been falling for around 25 years.

How can the UK approach be described as "softly softly" when we lock up more people per head of population than any other western democracy apart from the USA?
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Suedehead2
post Apr 5 2018, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Apr 5 2018, 11:51 AM) *
Then we have something in common.

I am alarmed - at how blasť people can be over crime. The softly softly approach has been tried for years and has utterly failed - that's why we need a get tough policy!

I note that you haven't tried to justify your "green card for murder" attitude.

Tell you what, why not move to the Philippines? You'd probably approve of their nut job of a president who makes Trump seem positively sane.
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