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post Mar 5 2019, 09:58 AM
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Is anybody going to be watching this much anticipated documentary?

I'm actually very interested in watching the documentary and to find out more knowledge of the Michael Jackson case.
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PaulM1983
post Mar 5 2019, 10:01 AM
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I've seen part 1 and will watch part 2 tonight. It's a bit more....explicit than I expected. But then I've never read into the original case so I don't know how much detail was ever released.

It's quite uncomfortable though.
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post Mar 5 2019, 10:01 AM
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10 Facts
1. Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler.
2. Five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse.
3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit.
4. Investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.
7. No one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.
8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts.
9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson committed suicide.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.

The only thing that concerns me and reading more into the Michael Jackson case is that Chandler was able to identify Michael's body parts. "Taraborrelli claims that Jordan correctly noted patchy colored skin on his buttocks, short pubic hair, and testicles marked pink and brown"
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diva thin muffin
post Mar 5 2019, 10:57 AM
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"9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson committed suicide."

Did they mention Michael Jackson in their suicide note / is it clear this is related to MJ? Just wondering because if not then it doesn't really seem to have anything to do with the case as people commit suicide for all kinds of reasons.

Not trying to disprove anything as I actually do believe he abused those boys. Just felt that fact was a bit off as if they don't explicitly mention that MJ is the reason they committed suicide it looks like it's just a sad coincidence.
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post Mar 5 2019, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE(cantthinkofaname @ Mar 5 2019, 10:57 AM) *
"9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson committed suicide."

Did they mention Michael Jackson in their suicide note / is it clear this is related to MJ? Just wondering because if not then it doesn't really seem to have anything to do with the case as people commit suicide for all kinds of reasons.

Not trying to disprove anything as I actually do believe he abused those boys. Just felt that fact was a bit off as if they don't explicitly mention that MJ is the reason they committed suicide it looks like it's just a sad coincidence.


It is a sad coincidence, just like the fact that nobody saw him having women in his house so automatically that makes him gay/a peadophile.

I'll be interested to watch this, but I also think it's very important to go in to the documentary with an open mind. Firstly let's not forget he was CLEARED by a court of any wrong doing on 10 counts. Look in my mind there's no doubt he did strange things, absolutely stupid things but isn't the question whether he sexually abused young boys? I think it's clear he was acting as a young boy himself. He was not of a sound state of mind. I'm not saying what he did was right - but I thought it was pretty much common knowledge he did some strange stuff???

I also think it's important to think that of the 'famous' kids that went round to his house a lot at the time, none of them have ever said he did anything nor that he abused them...
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post Mar 6 2019, 06:27 PM
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As far as I am aware family members, friends amd other children who went round his house and have openly said they did not experience any abuse were not invited to participate, contribute or comment.

That is completely irresponsible journalism.
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post Mar 6 2019, 06:43 PM
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According to people who have already seen it this is harrowing and quite upsetting.
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ITz Cody 🧨
post Mar 6 2019, 06:57 PM
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With all the small information coming out there seems to be a much larger picture unfolding than releasing an exposé on arguably one of the biggest performers of our time. If this documentary is really as one-sided as it seems, then it’s the creators and the GP who are at fault, not just for tarnishing a dead man’s reputation and legacy, but for any future implications that will come from this.
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post Mar 6 2019, 07:11 PM
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Micheal Jackson fans have been protesting outside C4 all day today.
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Rooney
post Mar 6 2019, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE(Klaus @ Mar 6 2019, 06:27 PM) *
As far as I am aware family members, friends amd other children who went round his house and have openly said they did not experience any abuse were not invited to participate, contribute or comment.

That is completely irresponsible journalism.


Exactly, nail on the head. It's about as one-sided a story as you can get and hence why I suspect the Jackson estate will rightly sue. Although I'm sure they read they declined to participate. I want to watch it out of interest but it's very long and it paints a man as guilty.
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post Mar 7 2019, 12:18 AM
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i'm really gonna have to wait for part 2 to really process this and give an opinion. the bias is shocking but even as a mega fan i felt like so much corroborated between stories. which they could have all easily have discussed beforehand but y'know..
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post Mar 7 2019, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 6 2019, 07:53 PM) *
Exactly, nail on the head. It's about as one-sided a story as you can get and hence why I suspect the Jackson estate will rightly sue. Although I'm sure they read they declined to participate. I want to watch it out of interest but it's very long and it paints a man as guilty.



It was even longer when shown on HBO. Ch.4 has cut 31 minutes from it.
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Doctor Blind
post Mar 7 2019, 10:04 AM
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Yeah I'm not sure what to think really, I'm inclined to believe them because I'm not quite sure who could possibly make up such horrific and disturbing child abuse and like Jake says the accounts were pretty consistent. From pretty much all cases of abuse, whether as children or adults (see: Harvey Weinstein) we are fully aware of how the power dynamic in these relationships works, without even considering what would happen when the abuser is the most popular entertainer in the world. I'm kind of torn because Macaulay Culkin was pretty emphatic that nothing ever happened and of course Wade Robson previously testified to that effect, though he could have easily chosen to groom the most vulnerable children and manipulated others.

Whether you believe the allegations or not the story of the two families involved is incredibly sad, what killed me was when Joy Robson (the mother of Wade) was recounting dropping everything to move part of the family from Australia to the USA leaving one son and her husband behind, and she remembered her father looking at her and saying ‘Have you lost your mind?’ It kind of disgusts me the people who just dismiss the allegations outright especially so publicly when we know how difficult it can be for abuse victims to come forward.

I'll see how I feel after watching Part 2 tonight..
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post Mar 7 2019, 10:04 AM
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Watched the first part last night. I did find it quite a disturbing watch, with the description of his abuse being delivered so graphically. It's very difficult to watch it and not be convinced he was guilty, although I suppose that was the whole point of making the film. I would have liked to watch a documentary where both sides put their views forward and the viewer is then left to make up their own mind.
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post Mar 7 2019, 10:11 AM
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QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Mar 7 2019, 10:04 AM) *
Yeah I'm not sure what to think really, I'm inclined to believe them because I'm not quite sure who could possibly make up such horrific and disturbing child abuse and like Jake says the accounts were pretty consistent. From pretty much all cases of abuse, whether as children or adults (see: Harvey Weinstein) we are fully aware of how the power dynamic in these relationships works, without even considering what would happen when the abuser is the most popular entertainer in the world. I'm kind of torn because Macaulay Culkin was pretty emphatic that nothing ever happened and of course Wade Robson previously testified to that effect, though he could have easily chosen to groom the most vulnerable children and manipulated others.

Who could possibly make up such horrific and disturbing child abuse? Some people would do pretty much anything for money. I'm not saying this is the case but just answering your question!

As for Macaulay Culkin, it could be that Michael never abused him but did abuse other boys.

What I did find a little suspicious watching it last night is just how much detail the two boys remembered from that time. I don't remember much from being that age and the stuff I do remember I could never recall in as much detail as they seem to be able to. I don't just mean about the abuse but about the whole experience of meeting him and of that time of their lives. For example one of the boys remembered what day of the week it was, and remembered in detail what was in Jackson's bedroom. I'm not dismissing what they're saying, and maybe I've just got a really bad memory compared to most, it's just something I noticed watching it and it made me wonder.
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diva thin muffin
post Mar 7 2019, 01:36 PM
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But why is it that people think it's more likely that FIVE boys (that's how many have accused him of abused) are making up these accusations than them having actually been abused by the world's most famous singer?

I know there's some crazy people out there but to be honest the pedophiles and rapists unfortunately outnumber the people who would make up lies like these by far. Even for money. For example, NSVRC claims that 1 out of 5 women are raped during their lifetime. I can guarantee it's a lot smaller number of people who have been falsely accused of rape however.

Additionally the NSVRC claims the following: "One in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old" which if true is absolutely heartbreaking and disgusting. (Source: Here)

I'm not saying Michael did it, but I'm not saying he didn't either. I just find it so interesting when people think it's more likely five people would go through all this trouble to tarnish a dead man's name than to think that it may actually have happened.

And LBR even though he maybe didn't abuse Macaulay Culkin that does not mean he didn't abuse any of the other boys.


This post has been edited by cantthinkofaname: Mar 7 2019, 01:40 PM
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Rooney
post Mar 7 2019, 06:49 PM
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Regardless of everything, surely if Michael Jackson is a serial peadophile then you would expect lots more people to come forward? I can't believe he 'just' did it to 5 people. The difference between the likes of Saville, Weinstein, R Kelly etc. is once these allegations were out in the open lots of people came forward. It will be interesting to see if anyone else comes forward.

I still have a hard time believing that if these allegations are true, you would lie an oath in court to protect the man. Then convinently not long after he has died, come forward with allegations. I have a really hard time believing Wade Robson as a credible witness. Attending a tribute show and MJ's funeal but claiming his music traumatises him. He's had known money issues and has been called out as a liar various times. I really struggle to believe him.
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post Mar 7 2019, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 7 2019, 06:49 PM) *
Regardless of everything, surely if Michael Jackson is a serial peadophile then you would expect lots more people to come forward? I can't believe he 'just' did it to 5 people. The difference between the likes of Saville, Weinstein, R Kelly etc. is once these allegations were out in the open lots of people came forward. It will be interesting to see if anyone else comes forward.

I still have a hard time believing that if these allegations are true, you would lie an oath in court to protect the man. Then convinently not long after he has died, come forward with allegations.


Who knows if more people will come forward - it certainly didn't happen overnight with Saville and so on. None of those come close to the Jackson money and empire either. They had and will always have a legacy to protect.

'Just five' is still a large number. How he acted with some children could have been different from how he acted with others – and it's not always easy to know when someone is being inappropriate, especially as a child.

The timing is never going to be ideal and how victims decide to act after trauma is for them to decide. It's also fairly standard to want to protect a person you've had a very traumatic and complex relationship with. Sometimes it takes years to realise what exactly happened, especially when someone has been groomed.



I'm a massive fan of his music, always have been, but this is not appropriate behaviour. That is a child being groomed without even realising it.
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post Mar 7 2019, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 7 2019, 06:49 PM) *
Regardless of everything, surely if Michael Jackson is a serial peadophile then you would expect lots more people to come forward? I can't believe he 'just' did it to 5 people. The difference between the likes of Saville, Weinstein, R Kelly etc. is once these allegations were out in the open lots of people came forward. It will be interesting to see if anyone else comes forward.

Valid points but it's also worth pointing out that in your other examples (Saville, Weinstein, R. Kelly) it's been female victims. Males have a much harder time admitting abuse than women because society is built up in such a way that being abused or raped by another man is so humiliating you'd rather never tell anyone about it. This is coming from someone who couldn't imagine admitting I was raped until way after I came out of the closet and even now I have no interest in reporting or publicly naming the man who raped me.

A straight man who comes forth saying that one of the most famous men in the world abused him might be scared that people will think he's gay for doing that and feel like it's not worth the trouble. He might convince himself he's fine even though it's ruined his trust towards people. He might think "it doesn't matter since he's dead anyway" and feel like it's not worth opening up a wound he's convinced himself was never a wound to begin with.

I feel like the "evidence" I've seen to supposedly support MJ is all just speculation based on how people think things would go "if" it were true, but the thing is people are unpredictable. Just because no one comes forth doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because X raped a boy and two of his friends but not all his friends doesn't mean he's not a rapist.
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Rooney
post Mar 7 2019, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE(blacksquare @ Mar 7 2019, 07:08 PM) *
Who knows if more people will come forward - it certainly didn't happen overnight with Saville and so on. None of those come close to the Jackson money and empire either. They had and will always have a legacy to protect.

'Just five' is still a large number. How he acted with some children could have been different from how he acted with others – and it's not always easy to know when someone is being inappropriate, especially as a child.

The timing is never going to be ideal and how victims decide to act after trauma is for them to decide. It's also fairly standard to want to protect a person you've had a very traumatic and complex relationship with. Sometimes it takes years to realise what exactly happened, especially when someone has been groomed.



I'm a massive fan of his music, always have been, but this is not appropriate behaviour. That is a child being groomed without even realising it.


Which is exactly why I suspect the next few months will be interesting.

The guy was a full on weirdo and did some stupid things. However I just cannot believe Wade Robson, he is not credible. I don't buy his excuse about acting late on his trauma. The way he has acted is not normal himself - he's totally uncredible imo. Also how parents can still hold gifts and act emotionally fine is just beyond me as well. If it did happen then the parents have to blame themselves as much.
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