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> Patriotism, a thread to discuss
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Boo!piter
post Sep 23 2020, 03:20 PM
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What are your thoughts on it? I feel like this is another (wedge?) issue that has somewhat come to divide people in our society nowadays, no matter where we are in the world.

I feel like the root may be a communication issue or difference between certain groups. From my perception, it seems that some people feel personally attacked by criticisms of the place where they live or the government where they live. And feel personally accredited when praise comes that country's way. 'we' did xyz or 'we' shouldnt've done xyz.

How does this fit into how you understand it? Do you think there's been a change at all in recent years as to what it means to be patriotic, or to be proud of your country? Does it differ between different countries?
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T Boy
post Sep 23 2020, 05:10 PM
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I struggle with patriotism because I can’t find anything to be patriotic about these days. I do love singing the Welsh anthem at the rugby and so in but the UK has become such a depressing place on the whole, I struggle to see it in a good light.
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Calum
post Sep 23 2020, 05:20 PM
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It's very easy to be proud of Scotland and to be Scottish, but definitely not British and the UK as a whole (largely because of England, politically).
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Rooney
post Sep 23 2020, 05:23 PM
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I find nothing wrong with being patriotic, I think we all be lying if we said we were not patriotic. I mean when England are in any form of sporting event and you are English you don't want to the opposite team to win, right? The problem is, with the rise of the alt-right patriotism and nationalism have become blurred. The English flag for example has been synonymous with the English Defence League and what it means to be truly "English".
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Crypt of the Wom...
post Sep 23 2020, 06:15 PM
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^Yeah, pretty much that. There shouldn't be anything wrong with patriotism as a concept, I have been very proud of my country at some points in my life, mainly during international sporting events which definitely do a wonderful job in uniting the country and their absence has really been felt this year.

Unfortunately, Brexit and the prominence of the alt-right has turned this whole concept into 'our country is superior to yours' which is just not how it should be. Whenever you see someone with a Union Jack flag in their name on Twitter or up in the window for example, you just can't help but think it's a political statement or a far right gesture which isn't how it should be. It's a sign of bad times when just a flag can bring up those connotations, not like it was like this in the 90s. We're just going backwards.
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Doctor Blind
post Sep 23 2020, 07:13 PM
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The difference between patriotism and nationalism is probably best demonstrated by looking back at the UK in 2012 and 2016.

2012 was the year of the Olympic Games held in the United Kingdom for the first time since 1948 (the 'Austerity Olympics'). It was one of those rare moments where I felt like the country were coming together as a whole and we, or certainly I became momentarily proud to be British. Especially on Super Saturday when I saw the country united behind a man from war torn Somalia who at the age of 8 had come over the London and risen through meritocracy to become the fastest middle distance runner in the world and win gold for Team GB.

2016 and the Brexit vote marked the culmination of years of tabloid fueled hatred towards 'outsiders', aided by a viscious austerity programme in the wake of the 2008 Financial Crisis, a cynical attempt by the richest in society to divide and rule for their own narrow self-interest. What we got was the Pandora's box of nationalism. Divisive, angry, and full of the stupid bloody flags all over Twitter - Gammon Central - unable and unwilling to engage with anyone who disagrees with them. So blind to any sort of argument that they forget what they were originally arguing for and enter into a vicious spiral of ever more ridiculous arguments and taking sides just to be against the 'other'.

The two are definitely not the same, best summed by Ian Dunt yesterday..

QUOTE
Patriotism is the love of country which emerges from within. It is diverse, it is personal, it is plural. Nationalism is the slab of conformity imposed from above. It is uniform, it is collective, it is singular.
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Salty Melody
post Sep 25 2020, 07:57 PM
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I find it strange that Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism is predominantly left wing whereas English nationalism is predominantly right wing.

Patriotism is different to nationalism I agree, I see nationalism as being a more extreme and wide ranging form of patriotism.

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Steve201
post Sep 25 2020, 11:02 PM
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The Irish Scottish and Welsh nationalism have become social democratic movements out of the various reactions to the rise of the new right in the 1980s as they saw an opportunity to oppose this right wing dogma alongside the ideological belief in national independence which is their ultimate goal. With each specific group though they rose out of different conditions so Irish nationalism although influenced by the right wing Catholic Church as a unified of national identity have produced a left wing economic orthodoxy due to social cultural and economic inequalities inflicted upon them in the 20th century. The most interesting thing will be what happens when there’s a United ireland - will they stick to their social democratic mantra of become centrist and populist nationalist parties?

As for Scotland the modern SNP rose out of the defeat of the devolution movements in the 1970s when it was promised to them in the post 1974 general election and also the discovery of North Sea oil which showed an independent Scotland could be viable. People like Salmond and John MacSwinney moves the party to the democratic socialist left to gain favour in the old Labour Party hegemonic areas.

As for patriotism all I will say is the famous John Hume quote “You can’t eat a flag”
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Boo!piter
post Sep 26 2020, 12:21 AM
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If I'm honest the whole idea confuses me. I understand shared culture. But feeling proud of something someone else does based on where you were born. Just leaves me as ??? Feels like a con trick to me like, everyone is doing it because it's the norm to, but no-one's actually thinking about it and realising how weird it is when you do.
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Iz~
post Sep 26 2020, 12:50 AM
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I'm fine with harmless patriotism, which is generally what I understand the term to be rather than nationalism. It's important to a lot of people, and playing to that in ways that don't perpetuate any inequalities in the system is fine. So teaching history critical of the British Empire is essential, cheering for Britain in international sports competitions, fine.

Of course it's illogical and very easy to go down a bad road with it if you don't get exposure to any other peoples, but being on a team is natural - even if I have far more in common with people that share my interests in another country than I do with older pub-going English people, so I only rarely let my patriotic side show.

To an extent, Scottish/Irish/Welsh nationalism is more along left-wing lines because of the historical imbalances between those and England, because of the standard interpretations of left seeks to change the status quo, right is a reaction against it. English patriotism is so poisoned for many because of an association between it and oppression.
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Boo!piter
post Sep 26 2020, 01:10 AM
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To an extent I think Scottish & Irish nationalism, the only reason they're strong is from shared trauma - in the case of Scotland, which continues to this day thanks to English-controlled media continuing to spread a mix of hate and disdain towards Scots.

Would the term micro-aggressions perhaps be appropriate here? Just seems that the very idea of Scottish people even having their own concerns and right to governance is treated like a joke or like you would treat a child in a wendy house saying they want to make their own rules, by English media, English government, and by extension, less politically-engaged English people. As someone from Ireland it's both very apparent and gets my back up because it seems utterly disrespectful and unnecessary.

Anyway I can see thus why Scots would feel unity just against that - and the fact that England pretends it isn't doing that. Solidarity, basically.
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Gustavo Woltmann
post Oct 12 2020, 04:13 AM
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well said, a patriot is one who keeps their country's flag flying high and showing respect. Love and dedication towards a country is an integral part of our growth of the nation. Patriotism embodies sacrifice for the country to protect its honour. It means identifying and understanding the ideals that the nation recognises.
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Harve
post Oct 12 2020, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE(Gustavo Woltmann @ Oct 12 2020, 06:13 AM) *
well said, a patriot is one who keeps their country's flag flying high and showing respect. Love and dedication towards a country is an integral part of our growth of the nation. Patriotism embodies sacrifice for the country to protect its honour. It means identifying and understanding the ideals that the nation recognises.

ok but why tho
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