BuzzJack
Entertainment Discussion

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register | Help )

Latest Site News
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Churchill Statue Discourse, would you rather be speaking German?
Track this topic - Email this topic - Print this topic - Download this topic - Subscribe to this forum
Iz 💀
post Mar 15 2021, 12:15 PM
Post #1
welcome to the mountaintop
*******
Group: Admin.
Posts: 33,864
Member No.: 12,929
Joined: 3-February 11
   No Gallery Pics
 




aka: my honeypot for whenever THIS BASTARD gets brought up as the foremost shining beacon of British stalwartness against evil.

Which, you know, he was, but he's a historical figure, and it's good to critically look at historical figures.

Considering he has a very notable statue that often gets targeted in protests and his legacy created a post-war Britain that won itself a plucky victory against the axis of darkness, his shadow is going to loom long and I guess we might as well have a thread for whenever he threatens to overtake the conversation anywhere else.

Should his statue be standing?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Iz 💀
post Mar 15 2021, 12:21 PM
Post #2
welcome to the mountaintop
*******
Group: Admin.
Posts: 33,864
Member No.: 12,929
Joined: 3-February 11
   No Gallery Pics
 


alternative opinion:



(check Jedward's twitter if you haven't already, they went OFF last night *.*)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
steve201
post Mar 15 2021, 12:34 PM
Post #3
Shakin Stevens
*******
Group: Members
Posts: 35,933
Member No.: 5,138
Joined: 29-December 07
   No Gallery Pics
 


I dont mind if his statue stands but im Irish so it doesnt effect me except his legacy on Ireland in the 1919-22 period which isnt often fondly remembered. What annoys me is that his wartime record immediately makes him not guilty for terrible decisions towards the Trade unionists in 1910, the Gallipoli decable, his absolutely terrible time as chancellor in the 1920s and general awful right wing social and economic views which played out post 1945 and the stereotypical fleg waving right wingers today!

This post has been edited by steve201: Mar 15 2021, 12:35 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
T Boy
post Mar 15 2021, 12:44 PM
Post #4
Radical Pink Troll
*******
Group: Artist Mod
Posts: 23,499
Member No.: 177
Joined: 11-March 06
   No Gallery Pics
 


You can always build another statue. You canít build another Sarah Everard or George Floyd.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lotita
post Mar 15 2021, 12:45 PM
Post #5
feminist icon (she/her)
*******
Group: Site Empress
Posts: 24,894
Member No.: 21,777
Joined: 21-April 15
   No Gallery Pics
 


Donít forget his role in the Boer war!!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blacksquare
post Mar 15 2021, 12:56 PM
Post #6
BuzzJack Gold Member
*****
Group: Members
Posts: 3,367
Member No.: 23,471
Joined: 25-July 16
   No Gallery Pics
 


QUOTE(Iz 💀 @ Mar 15 2021, 01:21 PM) *




'It was the soldiers, the sailors and the airmen who won the war and they voted him out when they came home'

Churchill lost in 1945, 1950, and then lost the popular vote in 1951 despite winning the election ó but he is so beloved and not a bad word against him must be uttered.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
steve201
post Mar 15 2021, 01:10 PM
Post #7
Shakin Stevens
*******
Group: Members
Posts: 35,933
Member No.: 5,138
Joined: 29-December 07
   No Gallery Pics
 


QUOTE(blacksquare @ Mar 15 2021, 12:56 PM) *


'It was the soldiers, the sailors and the airmen who won the war and they voted him out when they came home'

Churchill lost in 1945, 1950, and then lost the popular vote in 1951 despite winning the election ó but he is so beloved and not a bad word against him must be uttered.


Ridiculous but even watching the first series of the Crown will show what people in his party/cabinet thought of him by 1951-55, he was leader in name only as Eden was basically PM!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Klumzee
post Mar 15 2021, 01:12 PM
Post #8
#TeamAnneMarie
******
Group: Moderator
Posts: 17,180
Member No.: 11,421
Joined: 3-July 10
 


I've noticed it's very difficult to add any critical commentary against him, it's almost as if you'd rather the Nazis won if you utter anything against him? This I'm not a fan of as I'd want to be able to discuss the light and shade of most historical figures but it's very difficult against people who are so one-track minded and it's not exactly a bad take for them to have?

I think the statue should stand as he is an important historical figure to the UK, especially as he is still in living memory of millions and I'd say it is a minority who are against his actions as a whole. I feel like statues as a whole have been brought up considerably in the last year when previously most wouldn't have given a shit? Idk it feels more performative to take these statues down rather than trying to make actual change for people living today. It's further fuel for those who go against progressive movements imo.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
b
post Mar 15 2021, 01:12 PM
Post #9
#1 Adelita fan
********
Group: Members
Posts: 77,739
Member No.: 4,397
Joined: 25-September 07
 


This is so ironic that people claim statues and shit need to stay because we can't forget our history blah blah yet the same people make the same f***ing mistakes over and over. H*tler has been dead for a while yet we have reincarnations of him popping up all over the place. No amount of statues and reminders will change that. So I say get ALL statues taken down and replace them with pop divas. At least the gays won't turn that into a political agenda.

Pride should be directed towards the currently living - not those who you read about in the books - because they can actually influence the state of things.

But most importantly SO many statues are just an EYESORE so get those poop-covered stones removed from parks and squares where I'm supposed to enjoy the outside without having to look at ugly male cishets.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
steve201
post Mar 15 2021, 01:16 PM
Post #10
Shakin Stevens
*******
Group: Members
Posts: 35,933
Member No.: 5,138
Joined: 29-December 07
   No Gallery Pics
 


No surprise in the populist age we live in that debates about statues have been brought up twice in the space of 12 months!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rooney
post Mar 15 2021, 01:22 PM
Post #11
WINTER IS COMING
*******
Group: Global Mod
Posts: 43,240
Member No.: 88
Joined: 7-March 06
 


When anyone attacks a statue it is always seen as an attack on culture. They always seem to be easy targets for public protests which I don't agree with personally whatever someone's views are. Churchill of course, is the figurehead for WW2 in particular. So when someone attacks Churchill it is seen by lots of people as an attack on Britain, rightly or wrong. He has become synonymised with beating the Nazis. Whilst I certainly don't think he was a great politician he was certainly an absolutely amazing war time leader judging from all accounts. Certainly, I suspect we would be under Nazi semi-rule if we appeased the Nazis. I do think this gets lost a lot when people air their views that he was a massive racist and should be wiped from existence and shamed rather than celebrated.

He's evidence that you can do really amazing things but have huge flaws too and the reality is a lot of his more flawed views we look at in the 21st Century were most likely more widely accepted 70-75 years ago. Society moves on and adapts to the times.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Iz 💀
post Mar 15 2021, 01:30 PM
Post #12
welcome to the mountaintop
*******
Group: Admin.
Posts: 33,864
Member No.: 12,929
Joined: 3-February 11
   No Gallery Pics
 


QUOTE(Klumzee @ Mar 15 2021, 01:12 PM) *
I think the statue should stand as he is an important historical figure to the UK, especially as he is still in living memory of millions and I'd say it is a minority who are against his actions as a whole. I feel like statues as a whole have been brought up considerably in the last year when previously most wouldn't have given a shit? Idk it feels more performative to take these statues down rather than trying to make actual change for people living today. It's further fuel for those who go against progressive movements imo.


Yeah, I get that compared to actions to help the poor removing statues feels performative, but compared to very performative actions like renaming streets and privileged diversity appointments (e.g. first gay woman in an elite position like police commissioner), this does have the opportunity to change society more broadly, because statues are a very public indication of the types of people we venerate. Removing it would be a signal that we've thrown him off.

I view Churchill as a career politician and overseer of empire who had no end of controversies and hateful associations to his name. After a lifetime of messups from the Boer War to the Dardanelles Commission to anti-suffragists to his stint as Chancellor, he had had more than enough opportunities where he should have been booted out from any position of relevance ever again. That his dogged determination, initial foresight and ability to be a political chameleon put him in the right place at the right time in the twilight of his career and he managed to rise to the occasion, not without causing untold suffering across the world of course, is hardly worthy of being anywhere near the 'best Briton' or the man to base our culture around even despite his good actions in 1940. He got voted out after the war, but his ideals stuck, and were able to by him getting back in in 1951, and I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say that part of our conservative culture that causes so many to be left behind and causes us to be a sore British exceptionalist loser internationally is in part because of him.

I think far too much of the political ills we have with our older generation is they are uncompromising about the idea of him being a hero that showed the best of Britain, when if you just peer beyond the surface even a little, you see someone just as flawed and worthy of criticism as any modern politician. Probably more so.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
b
post Mar 15 2021, 01:37 PM
Post #13
#1 Adelita fan
********
Group: Members
Posts: 77,739
Member No.: 4,397
Joined: 25-September 07
 


QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 15 2021, 04:22 PM) *
He's evidence that you can do really amazing things but have huge flaws too and the reality is a lot of his more flawed views we look at in the 21st Century were most likely more widely accepted 70-75 years ago. Society moves on and adapts to the times.

His 'flawed views' make him useless if we want to continue to move on as a society so why would anyone wish to keep him
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
steve201
post Mar 15 2021, 01:38 PM
Post #14
Shakin Stevens
*******
Group: Members
Posts: 35,933
Member No.: 5,138
Joined: 29-December 07
   No Gallery Pics
 


QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 15 2021, 01:22 PM) *
When anyone attacks a statue it is always seen as an attack on culture. They always seem to be easy targets for public protests which I don't agree with personally whatever someone's views are. Churchill of course, is the figurehead for WW2 in particular. So when someone attacks Churchill it is seen by lots of people as an attack on Britain, rightly or wrong. He has become synonymised with beating the Nazis. Whilst I certainly don't think he was a great politician he was certainly an absolutely amazing war time leader judging from all accounts. Certainly, I suspect we would be under Nazi semi-rule if we appeased the Nazis. I do think this gets lost a lot when people air their views that he was a massive racist and should be wiped from existence and shamed rather than celebrated.

He's evidence that you can do really amazing things but have huge flaws too and the reality is a lot of his more flawed views we look at in the 21st Century were most likely more widely accepted 70-75 years ago. Society moves on and adapts to the times.


I think it symbolises perfectly that history is grey and not black and white for all figures!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Iz 💀
post Mar 15 2021, 01:40 PM
Post #15
welcome to the mountaintop
*******
Group: Admin.
Posts: 33,864
Member No.: 12,929
Joined: 3-February 11
   No Gallery Pics
 


QUOTE(Rooney @ Mar 15 2021, 01:22 PM) *
When anyone attacks a statue it is always seen as an attack on culture. They always seem to be easy targets for public protests which I don't agree with personally whatever someone's views are. Churchill of course, is the figurehead for WW2 in particular. So when someone attacks Churchill it is seen by lots of people as an attack on Britain, rightly or wrong. He has become synonymised with beating the Nazis. Whilst I certainly don't think he was a great politician he was certainly an absolutely amazing war time leader judging from all accounts. Certainly, I suspect we would be under Nazi semi-rule if we appeased the Nazis. I do think this gets lost a lot when people air their views that he was a massive racist and should be wiped from existence and shamed rather than celebrated.

He's evidence that you can do really amazing things but have huge flaws too and the reality is a lot of his more flawed views we look at in the 21st Century were most likely more widely accepted 70-75 years ago. Society moves on and adapts to the times.


I do respect his decisions with regards to the Norway Campaign/Debate, Dunkirk, Battle Of Britain, I think he managed to be the perfect leader for that. He definitely didn't make many friends though, there's so many disagreements with say General Alanbrooke's assessment in his diaries, and as the war wore on you get this picture of Churchill wanting to be this fanciful strategic master who flanks the Nazis into Southern Europe rather than clean up France first (same mistake he made back at Gallipolli and it's a good thing he got overruled).

He managed to be excellent in a crisis. After that though, should have had a long and happy retirement, perhaps even before the war ended, before he got the chance to do any more damage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
J00prstar
post Mar 15 2021, 02:01 PM
Post #16
brinty, bitch
******
Group: Artist Mod
Posts: 9,478
Member No.: 22,895
Joined: 21-January 16
   No Gallery Pics
 


It's just a statue. I don't give a shit either way.

Ultimately, to me, it's a decoration. No more, no less. The people that live around it should be asked if they want that decoration there, and if not, it should be moved and put in a museum or something. No different to me than a tree or a mural or a sculpture made of golden baubles or pyrex pyramids.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Klumzee
post Mar 15 2021, 02:35 PM
Post #17
#TeamAnneMarie
******
Group: Moderator
Posts: 17,180
Member No.: 11,421
Joined: 3-July 10
 


QUOTE(J00prstar @ Mar 15 2021, 02:01 PM) *
It's just a statue. I don't give a shit either way.

Ultimately, to me, it's a decoration. No more, no less. The people that live around it should be asked if they want that decoration there, and if not, it should be moved and put in a museum or something. No different to me than a tree or a mural or a sculpture made of golden baubles or pyrex pyramids.


Whilst in theory this is absolutely correct. They always represent something more and a set of values and beliefs that people share and celebrate. It's difficult not to tie the two together when it's a person. For example if you had a statue of yourself and people kept defacing or trying to pull it down, you'd take that as an attack on yourself and what you represent and so would society. It is a political statement and will send shockwaves through public discussion versus a tree or a sculpture for example. However I do agree that people living in this day & age should be the first to be protected and deemed important over a statue of someone who is not alive anymore. A poor choice from the Met Police in light of the events this past week but I can see why they were doing it too.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam.k.
post Mar 15 2021, 03:13 PM
Post #18
BuzzJack Legend
*******
Group: Chart Mod
Posts: 44,912
Member No.: 12,472
Joined: 8-December 10
 


I don't really have a strong opinion either way personally, I just try to see it through the perspective of other people. I agree that it's important to remember the bad as well as the good, that applies to everything when it comes to history. I think it's a little ignorant to say it's "just a statue" though as it clearly means something to a lot of people and I don't think we should be taking bloody Jedward's word as gospel.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rooney
post Mar 15 2021, 03:16 PM
Post #19
WINTER IS COMING
*******
Group: Global Mod
Posts: 43,240
Member No.: 88
Joined: 7-March 06
 


QUOTE(b @ Mar 15 2021, 01:37 PM) *
His 'flawed views' make him useless if we want to continue to move on as a society so why would anyone wish to keep him


We can't just forget our past though. I think Steve put it greatly that not everything is black and white as people may like us to believe. Tony Blair rightfully gets a shitload of stick for the Iraq war, but without him millions of people may not have had access to a basic standard minimum wage in the UK. John Lennon had a history of violence against woman, yet he is considered one of the music greats of the world. Michael Jackson was a peadophile but people still listen to his music. Walt Disney was a Nazi sympathiser, casual racist and anti-Semitic but people still visit Disneyland. History is lurked with people who are celebrated and immortalised but did murky things, always has, always will be.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
J00prstar
post Mar 15 2021, 03:27 PM
Post #20
brinty, bitch
******
Group: Artist Mod
Posts: 9,478
Member No.: 22,895
Joined: 21-January 16
   No Gallery Pics
 


QUOTE(Klumzee @ Mar 15 2021, 02:35 PM) *
Whilst in theory this is absolutely correct. They always represent something more and a set of values and beliefs that people share and celebrate. It's difficult not to tie the two together when it's a person. For example if you had a statue of yourself and people kept defacing or trying to pull it down, you'd take that as an attack on yourself and what you represent and so would society. It is a political statement and will send shockwaves through public discussion versus a tree or a sculpture for example. However I do agree that people living in this day & age should be the first to be protected and deemed important over a statue of someone who is not alive anymore. A poor choice from the Met Police in light of the events this past week but I can see why they were doing it too.


I disagree that it has to mean anything more.

To me thar is projection for willingness to make everything into a culture war.

Especially in a case like this where the creator of the statue is long dead. It's just a thing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post


4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:


 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 16th April 2021 - 12:24 AM