Racial or religious groups could be picked out for hi-tech, airport checks |
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Jan 2 2010, 04:37 PM
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You are a child of the universe
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 23,408 User: 78 |
The government could allow hi-tech security searches at British airports that focus on people who fit a particular profile, prompting fears that particular racial and religious groups will face increased scrutiny, it emergedtoday .
A Whitehall source told the Guardian passenger profiling was "in the mix" of the review into airport security ordered this week by Gordon Brown after the failed attempt to blow up a transatlantic jet on Christmas Day. The development came as airline industry chiefs warned it would be impossible to screen all travellers with a new generation of body scanners the government now wants introduced at airports. Airport industry executives warn the scanners are currently too big, slow and expensive to make their widespread installation viable. Costing around £100,000 each, they take up much more space than the arch metal detectors currently in use and require longer to check every passenger. Many in the industry have long called for the profiling of passengers to detect potential terrorists. But while it is claimed spotters would primarily be watching for suspicious behaviour, there are fears travellers will be selected for enhanced checks based on race, religion and ethnicity. "They would be looking for people who are acting differently from regular passengers. However, it is going to appear to target a particular group of people because sadly it is that group of people that is presenting the problem at the moment," said Norman Shanks, a former head of security at BAA, the UK's largest airport operator. The Airport Operators Association (AOA) and BAA, the UK's largest airport operator, support passenger profiling. "We would like to see a combination of technology, intelligence and passenger profiling," a BAA spokesman said. Shanks said a successful profiling system should train airline check-in staff and other people working at airports how to spot unusual behaviour. The exact criteria used to produce a passenger profile is secret but could also include factors such as how a ticket was bought, whether the passenger had check-in luggage, as well as the person's behaviour. The director of Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti, warned against an overreaction to the latest security alert. "We all take our security seriously but we need to learn the lessons of the recent past. Any response to terrorism has to be proportionate and respectful of the human rights values of dignity, privacy and liberty that governments on both sides of the Atlantic have been all too easily tempted to ignore." The Labour MP Khalid Mahmood said he would encourage the Muslim community to accept profiling. "I think people would rather be profiled than blown up. It wouldn't be victimisation. I think people will understand that it is only through something like profiling that there will be some kind of safety," he said. "Certainly some people will be aggrieved but the fact is that the majority of people who carry out these terror attacks do happen to be Muslims." As Brown announced a security summit would be held this month in London, it became clear ministers are ready to authorise the use of full body scanners whatever the conclusion of a European review of such systems next week. The scanners, which can see under people's clothing, could have spotted explosives strapped to the body of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab when he boarded a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit on Christmas Day. Officials at the Department for Transport had said the EU ruling on whether the scanners violated people's privacy was necessary before they could be used in Britain but now sources have said the government inquiry – due to wind up in the next few days – is likely to give the go-ahead for the scanners "with or without European cooperation". But concerns remain about the cost and practicality of introducing them. "It is all right if you are planning a new terminal but you cannot change the design of an airport [to fit them in]. UK airports are already full to capacity to accommodate passengers at peak times of the year," said Ed Anderson, AOA executive chairman. Senior BAA staff are understood to have reservations about the readiness of full body scanning technology. Brown said today the security summit would discuss methods of countering radicalisation in Yemen. It will be held on 28 January alongside the conference on the future of Afghanistan. Abdulmutallab is believed to have developed radical Islamist views during visits to Yemen. Source: The Guardian Is it the right thing to do, to have more checks on certain race/religous groups or is it an infringment on civil liberties? |
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Jan 2 2010, 04:57 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
Doesn't go far enough
I think that anyone that has ever visited high risk countries such as Yemen and other high risk countries where there are known to be Al Qaeda training camps should be made to remove their clothes before they get on a plane and issue them with airline supplied gowns to be worn in flight This prevents any chance of explosives, knives, bombs or anything being hidden on a person, their clothes would then be returned to them when they get off the plane, I would also include Somali nationals who seem to be the most radicalised muslims these days Going through a scanner is not foolproof I am not being racist at all it is about saving lives and alas there has not been a single plot to blow up a plane by a non muslim in decades |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:08 PM
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272 |
Doesn't go far enough I think that anyone that has ever visited high risk countries such as Yemen and other high risk countries where there are known to be Al Qaeda training camps should be made to remove their clothes before they get on a plane and issue them with airline supplied gowns to be worn in flight This prevents any chance of explosives, knives, bombs or anything being hidden on a person, their clothes would then be returned to them when they get off the plane, I would also include Somali nationals who seem to be the most radicalised muslims these days Going through a scanner is not foolproof I am not being racist at all it is about saving lives and alas there has not been a single plot to blow up a plane by a non muslim in decades Well, thanks very much for that. I've visited Yemen (in 1983) and Syria (in 1971 and 1995) so it's just as well I've already decided that flying is far too much hassle. I'll stick to the train. |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:12 PM
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im all clares!
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 16,421 User: 5 |
the pc do-gooders will cry foul, picking on certain racial groups... but why not? its not john smith and his nuclear family going on holiday that are blowing planes up is it. its a harsh fact that certain races/religious groups ARE the ones blowing planes up, so why shouldnt they be checked and why should john smith and his nuclear family waste hours going through checks when its quite obvious they dont blow planes up.
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Jan 2 2010, 05:15 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
Well, thanks very much for that. I've visited Yemen (in 1983) and Syria (in 1971 and 1995) so it's just as well I've already decided that flying is far too much hassle. I'll stick to the train. Selective reading I think either that or you are being pedantic for the sake of it or have undergone a conversion to Islam either way it is obvious that I was talking about muslims as I stated the following " and alas there has not been a single plot to blow up a plane by a non muslim in decades" so how you could draw a conclusion that my post included the likes of you beggars belief |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:16 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 2 October 2007
Posts: 18,059 User: 4,443 |
Sorry to be branded a 'pc do gooder' but this is quite frankly pathetic.
Yes, at this point in time islamic groups are primarily the ones 'blowing up planes' and YES perhaps better checks should be carried out, but I stand by my argument of why WOULDNT a white person blow up a blame? Muslims dont HAVE to be asian, there are alot of muslim converts even in Britain who could be just as capable. Imo if youre going to check one, you check everyone. I know the checks proposed arent 'racist' as such but I still think everyone should be checked. What about the days when muslim extremeists werent a moral panic fear fuelled by the racist tabloids, and the IRA were the ones to fear. Would you all have been equally supportive of programmes to check all Irishmen? |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:21 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
Sorry to be branded a 'pc do gooder' but this is quite frankly pathetic. Yes, at this point in time islamic groups are primarily the ones 'blowing up planes' and YES perhaps better checks should be carried out, but I stand by my argument of why WOULDNT a white person blow up a blame? Muslims dont HAVE to be asian, there are alot of muslim converts even in Britain who could be just as capable. Imo if youre going to check one, you check everyone. I know the checks proposed arent 'racist' as such but I still think everyone should be checked. What about the days when muslim extremeists werent a moral panic fear fuelled by the racist tabloids, and the IRA were the ones to fear. Would you all have been equally supportive of programmes to check all Irishmen? If they were involved in frequent plots to blow up planes yes, in a heartbeat Fact is muslims have been involved in every single successful or unsuccessful bid to blow up a plane from as far back as I can remember |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:25 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
Sorry to be branded a 'pc do gooder' but this is quite frankly pathetic. Yes, at this point in time islamic groups are primarily the ones 'blowing up planes' and YES perhaps better checks should be carried out, but I stand by my argument of why WOULDNT a white person blow up a blame? Muslims dont HAVE to be asian, there are alot of muslim converts even in Britain who could be just as capable. Imo if youre going to check one, you check everyone. I know the checks proposed arent 'racist' as such but I still think everyone should be checked. What about the days when muslim extremeists werent a moral panic fear fuelled by the racist tabloids, and the IRA were the ones to fear. Would you all have been equally supportive of programmes to check all Irishmen? You have to go back to the 1970's days of Carlos The Jackal to find the last white/non muslim plot to blow up a plane Fact is white's don't have a recent history of trying to blow up planes, muslims do |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:30 PM
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im all clares!
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 16,421 User: 5 |
Sorry to be branded a 'pc do gooder' but this is quite frankly pathetic. Yes, at this point in time islamic groups are primarily the ones 'blowing up planes' and YES perhaps better checks should be carried out, but I stand by my argument of why WOULDNT a white person blow up a blame? Muslims dont HAVE to be asian, there are alot of muslim converts even in Britain who could be just as capable. Imo if youre going to check one, you check everyone. I know the checks proposed arent 'racist' as such but I still think everyone should be checked. What about the days when muslim extremeists werent a moral panic fear fuelled by the racist tabloids, and the IRA were the ones to fear. Would you all have been equally supportive of programmes to check all Irishmen? you are missing the point... the idea is to stream (BUT NOT EXCLUDE) the most unlikely people . why should my ageing mother be subject to searches when its bloody obvious she aint gonna blow a friggin plane up? its about speeding through those less likely and searching more thoughroughly those MOST likely on racial OR religious grounds. that then would include white muslims and irishmen if the ira was still a threat. (they never blow a plane out of the air). so yes, it aint about colour/race per se, its about those who pose the greatest risk, if i fell into that catagory then id have to expect to be more thoughroughly searched. |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:42 PM
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272 |
Selective reading I think either that or you are being pedantic for the sake of it or have undergone a conversion to Islam either way it is obvious that I was talking about muslims as I stated the following " and alas there has not been a single plot to blow up a plane by a non muslim in decades" so how you could draw a conclusion that my post included the likes of you beggars belief This is what you said... "I think that anyone that has ever visited high risk countries such as Yemen and other high risk countries where there are known to be Al Qaeda training camps should be made to remove their clothes before they get on a plane and issue them with airline supplied gowns to be worn in flight" You said "anyone" not any Muslim. Besides, if Muslims are specifically targeted Al Qaida will just use white Muslims who have retained a western name. Names like Richard Reid for instance. Or they will target other means of transport. Or drive a car over a cliff onto a crowded beach. |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:49 PM
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im all clares!
Joined: 7 March 2006
Posts: 16,421 User: 5 |
Besides, if Muslims are specifically targeted Al Qaida will just use white Muslims who have retained a western name. Names like Richard Reid for instance. Or they will target other means of transport. Or drive a car over a cliff onto a crowded beach. .... so we just let them try to blow planes up then do we? its a fact that certain religious/racial groups are more likely then others to cause a disaster. do you think the stringent examinations should be applied to everyone flying? even my harmless old mum? yeah...search her just to be balanced... what a waste of fcukin time. |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:50 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
This is what you said... "I think that anyone that has ever visited high risk countries such as Yemen and other high risk countries where there are known to be Al Qaeda training camps should be made to remove their clothes before they get on a plane and issue them with airline supplied gowns to be worn in flight" You said "anyone" not any Muslim. Besides, if Muslims are specifically targeted Al Qaida will just use white Muslims who have retained a western name. Names like Richard Reid for instance. Or they will target other means of transport. Or drive a car over a cliff onto a crowded beach. Nothing is 100% foolproof, it is not 100% possible to completely make air travel terrorism free but about minimising risks and what I suggested would heavily reduce the risk but of course not take it away entirely, Al Qaeda could probably recruit an 80 year old granny if they wanted to so no solution is ever going to 100% make planes terrorist free but things, maybe even radical things need to be done to reduce the risks even if it is going to cause some inconvenience to high risk groups All your wooly liberalism is going to do is leave a $h!tload of crashed planes and dead bodies This post has been edited by B.A Baracus: Jan 2 2010, 05:53 PM |
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Jan 2 2010, 05:57 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
.... so we just let them try to blow planes up then do we? its a fact that certain religious/racial groups are more likely then others to cause a disaster. do you think the stringent examinations should be applied to everyone flying? even my harmless old mum? yeah...search her just to be balanced... what a waste of fcukin time. What is going to affect your mum, my mum, every plane traveller is a plan that is in the pipeline and set to be introduced soon that is going to mean the closure of plane toilets for the last hour of flight so that terrorists cannot use toilets to assemble or let off bombs, that sort of $h!t inconveniences every plane passenger of whatever age or race so I would rather see muslims inconvenienced than every airline passenger http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/v...engers-in-seats Set to be introduced worldwide in 2010 This post has been edited by B.A Baracus: Jan 2 2010, 05:59 PM |
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Jan 2 2010, 06:31 PM
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272 |
Nothing is 100% foolproof, it is not 100% possible to completely make air travel terrorism free but about minimising risks and what I suggested would heavily reduce the risk but of course not take it away entirely, Al Qaeda could probably recruit an 80 year old granny if they wanted to so no solution is ever going to 100% make planes terrorist free but things, maybe even radical things need to be done to reduce the risks even if it is going to cause some inconvenience to high risk groups All your wooly liberalism is going to do is leave a $h!tload of crashed planes and dead bodies I was arguing against your totally barking proposal, not the possibility of targeting Muslims for extra searches. I suspect this will go ahead even though the number of Muslims who boarded a plane last year intending to blow it up is only one more than the total number of non-Muslims. In other words, the proportion of Muslims show want to blow up a plane is infinitesimal, the overwhelming majority of Muslims wishing to fly face extra inconvenience. As that may well lead to people having to check in even earlier, that's all the more reason to avoid flying. |
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Jan 2 2010, 06:40 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
I was arguing against your totally barking proposal, not the possibility of targeting Muslims for extra searches. I suspect this will go ahead even though the number of Muslims who boarded a plane last year intending to blow it up is only one more than the total number of non-Muslims. In other words, the proportion of Muslims show want to blow up a plane is infinitesimal, the overwhelming majority of Muslims wishing to fly face extra inconvenience. As that may well lead to people having to check in even earlier, that's all the more reason to avoid flying. It is only 1 step above the El Al system that has made El Al the safest airline in the world with not a single in flight incident in 42 years EVERY muslim or black african that travels on El Al is taken to a room by El Al security and is interrogated and strip searched so my suggestion is identical to El Al with the excepton of the passenger doesn't get their clothes back until they have landed as they could meet someone airside who somehow smuggled a bomb so they would get their clothes back when they have landed El Al despite being the natiional airline of the worlds most hated country is the safest airline in the world to fly on, they are clearly doing something right |
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Jan 3 2010, 01:24 AM
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BuzzJack Gold Member
Joined: 11 April 2006
Posts: 4,259 User: 457 |
It is only 1 step above the El Al system that has made El Al the safest airline in the world with not a single in flight incident in 42 years EVERY muslim or black african that travels on El Al is taken to a room by El Al security and is interrogated and strip searched so my suggestion is identical to El Al with the excepton of the passenger doesn't get their clothes back until they have landed as they could meet someone airside who somehow smuggled a bomb so they would get their clothes back when they have landed El Al despite being the natiional airline of the worlds most hated country is the safest airline in the world to fly on, they are clearly doing something right LOL. That is all. This post has been edited by Danny: Jan 3 2010, 01:24 AM |
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Jan 3 2010, 11:11 AM
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272 |
It is only 1 step above the El Al system that has made El Al the safest airline in the world with not a single in flight incident in 42 years EVERY muslim or black african that travels on El Al is taken to a room by El Al security and is interrogated and strip searched so my suggestion is identical to El Al with the excepton of the passenger doesn't get their clothes back until they have landed as they could meet someone airside who somehow smuggled a bomb so they would get their clothes back when they have landed El Al despite being the natiional airline of the worlds most hated country is the safest airline in the world to fly on, they are clearly doing something right Withdrawing from the occupied territories would have been a lot cheaper. |
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Jan 3 2010, 11:43 AM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
Withdrawing from the occupied territories would have been a lot cheaper. Maybe so but other airlines could learn a lot from El Al El Al is the only airline in the world that passes the passengers luggage through compressor chambers to detect if there is anything that will explode onboard, this is both hand luggage and personal luggage El Al by strip searching muslim passengers and black african passengers eliminates the chance of target groups attacking their planes El Al by taking swabs from every passengers fingernails and clothing detects if a person has been near explosives El Al is the only airline that has a direct connection to every intelligence agency blacklist/terrorist list/banned list in the world El Al has 5 undercover plainclothes armed police on every flight Every airline would be as good as safe from terrorism if they adopted El Al tactics |
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Jan 3 2010, 01:26 PM
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BuzzJack Legend
Joined: 13 April 2007
Posts: 36,653 User: 3,272 |
And El Al is the only airline where you have to check in three hours before a flight.
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Jan 3 2010, 01:37 PM
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BuzzJack Platinum Member
Joined: 28 August 2008
Posts: 6,223 User: 6,934 |
And El Al is the only airline where you have to check in three hours before a flight. What is better ? longer check in time or being blown up at 35,000ft ? should be no contest I would rather check in 4 hrs before departure and be properly screened then kill time after that in the departure lounge having a few drinks than I would getting blown up And as for your claim above you are wrong, I am off to Dubai in March on Emirates and on the travel documents it states that they want you to check in 3 hrs before departure |
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