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vidsanta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

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Basic income

Not to be confused with living wage or minimum wage.

A basic income (also called basic income guarantee, citizen's income, unconditional basic income, universal basic income (UBI), basic living stipend (BLS) or universal demogrant) is typically a form of social security or welfare regime, in which all citizens (or permanent residents) of a country receive a regular, liveable and unconditional sum of money, from the government. Payments does not require the recipient to work or look for work, and is independent of any other income.[2][3][4]

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What do you think of this idea?
Soy AdriŠn
At some point it will probably become inevitable, but there are obvious teething problems that will have to be ironed out first. I voted 'Unsure' as that's basically where I stand on current proposals.
5 Silas FrÝkner
I too am uncertain. Really curious to see how the pilots turn out in Scotland.
vidsanta
I can just imagine Tories frothing at the mouth at the very idea, though! laugh.gif
5 Silas FrÝkner
Good! The more frothing they do the less damage to the country they do!!
December Dong
I supported this idea from back in 2013 on, arguing that automation need not be seen as a bad thing. Use it to emancipate everyone with the option of UBI. It takes away the capitalist worry of failure, gives freedom from menial jobs, and will do a great job vs homelessness and poverty. It will be a huge step forward for humanity, let alone society. People WILL have to disconnect value from work and the need to do SOMETHING, even mind-numbing menial jobs which people hate.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Shia LeMuffQueef @ Jan 19 2018, 12:47 PM) *
I supported this idea from back in 2013 on, arguing that automation need not be seen as a bad thing. Use it to emancipate everyone with the option of UBI. It takes away the capitalist worry of failure, gives freedom from menial jobs, and will do a great job vs homelessness and poverty. It will be a huge step forward for humanity, let alone society. People WILL have to disconnect value from work and the need to do SOMETHING, even mind-numbing menial jobs which people hate.


The usual Tory claim that 'it will encourage laziness' just doesn't wash as the same people who live off the dole now, will do the same off UBI. Anyone who has more than minimal aspirations will still need to work to achieve them though.
Doctor Blind
QUOTE(Soy AdriŠn @ Jan 19 2018, 07:54 AM) *
At some point it will probably become inevitable, but there are obvious teething problems that will have to be ironed out first. I voted 'Unsure' as that's basically where I stand on current proposals.


Have you listened to Ed Miliband and Geoff Lloyd's Podcast on this (IIRC it was Podcast #1), quite interesting and it is something that I am supportive of in theory. There were some good arguments made about how it actually incentivises people to work or offer their time for free (volunteering) especially compared with the current welfare system. Because it is such a radical step though it would need to be done in conjunction with a complete overhaul of the system of work - making work more 'open source', utilising people's skills to complete what needs to be done for the benefit of society, and I see the next few decades being us getting to grips with how we actually do this.
Holly and Izzy
For, because I think if we can move towards working for our own benefit and less working for survival, the better off we'll be.

Particularly if automation can eliminate useless jobs it'll be of net benefit to society as a whole - especially if people who would otherwise be working mundane jobs that tire them out can put their energy to good use volunteering or creating creative projects that wouldn't otherwise be profitable - history has shown that some of the best artistic works were never popular or profitable in their lifetime. Of course a lot of crap would be made but the gems would also come. The proposals right now are in the early stages and I don't expect them to get it right for a while but it will happen eventually.

December Dong
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Jan 19 2018, 04:16 PM) *
The usual Tory claim that 'it will encourage laziness' just doesn't wash as the same people who live off the dole now, will do the same off UBI. Anyone who has more than minimal aspirations will still need to work to achieve them though.


Of course, but the weight off society's conscience and hopefully less stress/ suicide/ stigma will be of huge benefit.
Soy AdriŠn
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Jan 19 2018, 04:23 PM) *
Have you listened to Ed Miliband and Geoff Lloyd's Podcast on this (IIRC it was Podcast #1), quite interesting and it is something that I am supportive of in theory. There were some good arguments made about how it actually incentivises people to work or offer their time for free (volunteering) especially compared with the current welfare system. Because it is such a radical step though it would need to be done in conjunction with a complete overhaul of the system of work - making work more 'open source', utilising people's skills to complete what needs to be done for the benefit of society, and I see the next few decades being us getting to grips with how we actually do this.

I have actually, I try and listen most weeks. I think it reiterated to me how ambitious UBI will have to be to succeed, as like you say it will require a complete overhaul of our welfare system and more besides.
will-i-ever
I voted for. Seem like it's high time for something like this to happen. I'll be oversimplifying things now, but it's something like a pension to my mind. So many generations of people have brought our society to the current level of technologies and science and people work less with their hands, machines play a greater part. It's only fair for people to get some part of the generated profit too, for everything that has been done by our ancestors
December Dong
It's not even that radical.

Allowing billionaires to horde mass wealth is far more radical when you think about it and not in our interests as a species or a planet.
Doctor Blind
The long read in the Guardian on Friday was about 'post-work' which ties in nicely with this talk of UBI: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jan/1...ld-without-jobs

It's a LONG read though! tongue.gif
Doctor Blind
Now being discussed in the 'mainstream media' on the BBC News pages this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43078920

With the rise of automation coming in the 2020s I think it is definitely time for a debate and further research on how we want to live in the future, and I firmly believe that UBI is likely to be a big part of that.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Feb 16 2018, 03:02 PM) *
Now being discussed in the 'mainstream media' on the BBC News pages this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43078920


One part that caught my eye was :

'Anyone receiving the "dividends" would not be able to claim any tax allowances, which the RSA says would act as a disincentive to wealthier earners wanting to apply for the handout.'

Does that include Personal Allowances, as if that couldn't be claimed, then 20% of that £10k PA would get taken immediately back. unsure.gif
Suedehead2
I assume the intention is that UBI would be tax-free but that any further income would be taxed.
5 Silas FrÝkner
Yeah as far as Iím aware in a UBI world any additional income you receive is taxed from the first penny. The argument being that this increases the wealth of the poorest in society although the academic reviews of those claims are mixed at best
CarrotNinja
UBI - Because of fast automation of nearly all Industries. UBI I think is the only way for forward for humanity.
vidsanta
QUOTE(CarrotNinja @ Dec 26 2018, 04:54 PM) *
UBI - Because of fast automation of nearly all Industries. UBI I think is the only way for forward for humanity.


Mind you, I think it would take a Labour gov't to ever make it law - it is anathema to a lot of Tories!
Crazy Chris-tmas
Yes. Then they wouldn't keep sending me for these stupid medical re-assessments when my condition never improves. mad.gif Another one looms.
ChristmaSteve201
Don't we have similar to this with tax credits and things like that? Most people don't get paid enough to live off by big corporations these days!!
Holly and Izzy
The ultimate premise though through ideas like this is to make work an option that people take to earn more or to find purpose, as opposed to having to work for survival. Itís a lot more wide-ranging than our current system of benefits and most proposals has it apply to everyone no matter their income (though in order to make it work in practice I would imagine higher earners to be incentivised somehow to surrender their contributions)

I think it will eventually come to pass but not before we have a massive unemployment crisis from automation that exacerbates the need for it.
Baytree
I'm For, on the whole. I've been interested in this initiative for a few years. One of my local Labour councillors and now a parliamentary candidate has been championing it and raising awareness of the idea for ages. At first he was like a lone voice in the wilderness but he never gave up and he deserves real credit. He was so passionate and enthusiastic that I started to look for info, pros and cons, about the scheme.

As always in politics the devil is in the detail. I hope that if the pilots go well, the government and the cIvil service won't overcomplicate it.

The current welfare system is an unwieldy mess that's open to mistakes on all sides and misery for so many because it's been chopped and changed so much with changes being made piecemeal over decades.
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