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Brett-Butler
Time for a new thread, as the last EU/Brexit thread was getting rather big for its metaphorical boots. As usual, the same disclaimers, intelligent discussion about the issues at hand welcome, please no repeating the same point ad infinitum, no ad hominum attacks of fellow members, although robust arguments over the points and political positions brought forward by other members is very much welcome.


To kick this thread off, a recent opinion poll from Ipsos Mori indicates that 69% of people in NI want to remain part of the EU (although caveats are that it doesn't state whether they want the UK or just NI to remain in the EU, the fieldwork took place in March, so things could have changed since then). Although conversely, another recent poll showed that only 21% would support a United Ireland, an arrangement that would guarantee NI remaining in the EU.
Popchartfreak
Yes The Guardian article and the left-wing Billy Bragg retweeting it suggests that the border problems might well be an issue on Brexit and how people change their minds on it. Who knew!!!???

Wonder if Billy could have a chat with Jeremy....
Popchartfreak
Bank of England governor Mark Carney tells the Treasury Select Committee that Brexit means real household incomes are about £900 lower than forecast in May 2016, "which is a lot of money"

On behalf of all Remain voters can I just say a HUUUUGE thank you to Brexiters for making sure that Operation Fear continues to come true. Looking forward immensely to seeing how we do once we actually leave rather than just damage from talking about leaving...
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 22 2018, 12:58 PM) *
Bank of England governor Mark Carney tells the Treasury Select Committee that Brexit means real household incomes are about £900 lower than forecast in May 2016, "which is a lot of money"


How do they separate that out from the impact of austerity measures?
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 22 2018, 02:52 PM) *
How do they separate that out from the impact of austerity measures?


Ask him, I didn't say it, and he's in charge of the economy and was rather good at it in non-2008-Banking-catastrophe Canada....

(PS Austerity is 10 years old, I'm just guessing mind you, that they had already factored that into the initial forecast and this was extra icing on top...)

(PPS he was appointed by a Tory PM, and continues to be employed under contract by a Tory PM, so I imagine he would be fired if it was a political untruth)

(PPPS he's Chairman of the G20 Financial Stability Board so I imagine he's pretty much held in high regard worldwide as knowing a thing or two about economic crises and how to avoid them, or reduce the impact of them)

(PPPPS He reduced the impact of Brexit immediately after the referendum by pumping billions of pounds into the tanking UK economy)

Still, what do experts know, eh?
December Dong
We've had QUITE enough of listening to experts who know what they're talking about, and want more critically stupid public schoolboys doing the bidding of the tabloid Murdoch press!
vidsanta
I don't know what the political stance of the Evening Standard is, but here's an article from there...

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/margare...d-a3845471.html

What a turn up for the books. First, Hans-Olaf Henkel, one of Germany’s leading industrialists and member of the European Parliament, says that Britain quitting the EU is an epic disaster because with us leaving, “the last country with common sense leaves the EU”.
December Dong
Yet, all across the continent there has been a massive upswing in support of the EU because of the UK's right wing coup disaster.
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 23 2018, 03:37 PM) *
I don't know what the political stance of the Evening Standard is, but here's an article from there...

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/margare...d-a3845471.html

What a turn up for the books. First, Hans-Olaf Henkel, one of Germany’s leading industrialists and member of the European Parliament, says that Britain quitting the EU is an epic disaster because with us leaving, “the last country with common sense leaves the EU”.


It's unified the EU quite nicely now everyone has a good example of what lies ahead outside of the EU. And the UK's decision seems to nullify the bit about common sense - though he is talking about British influence on EU policy which has been instrumental over the decades and agreed with by British politicians every step of the way, and when we didn't agree we got special dispensation most of the time other than the 4 cornerstones.

Presumably he sees the people who voted for Brexit causing the disaster as there's no-one else to blame....

Thanks for confirming that view a sit's unlikely that something that is a disaster for the EU is going to be a major triumph for the UK in any way whatsoever.

Or it's just the opinion of one man, though the leaders in the EU have consistently said they are sad the UK is leaving, but they'll survive without giving in to the demands of the UK as we were promised in the referendum by the people now failing to make the EU give in to any of our demands at all. Who knew?!!

Suedehead2
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 23 2018, 03:37 PM) *
I don't know what the political stance of the Evening Standard is, but here's an article from there...

Some clues...

It used to be described as the Evening Boris
A previous editor played a major part in Boris Johnson's first mayoral campaign
The current editor is Gideon Osborne

I think we can take it for granted that it is not a Labour-supporting paper.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 23 2018, 09:53 PM) *
It's unified the EU quite nicely now everyone has a good example of what lies ahead outside of the EU.


I think that's a bit of a stretch - at most, it shows just how hard the EU will make it for anyone else to leave their gilded cage.
Popchartfreak
Apparently Brexit DOESN'T mean Brexit to the morons in charge having a strop.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44232269

In other words "how VERY dare you not let us pick and choose the bits about the EU we love and get rid of the bits we don't like"...
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 24 2018, 07:00 AM) *
I think that's a bit of a stretch - at most, it shows just how hard the EU will make it for anyone else to leave their gilded cage.


No, it's a dose of reality to all countries how torturous it is in reality to actually do something that was claimed to be a piece of piss by the liars lying about leaving.

PS you have just switched your regular argument ("I voted to regain political control") to one of the other excuses ("it's all the EU's fault things are going tits up"). Most people in polls believe quite rightly that whatever happens it's the fault of the UK having made a choice, and not the EU which will continue providing benefits to the members that don't wish to leave and which the lying Brexiters claimed would be open to non-EU countries after leaving because the UK is SPECIAL and UNIQUE and Germans need us to buy their cars.

Lies of course.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 24 2018, 07:58 AM) *
No, it's a dose of reality to all countries how torturous it is in reality to actually do something that was claimed to be a piece of piss by the liars lying about leaving.


In other words 'you say pot-ay-to, I say pot-ah-to'? rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
PS you have just switched your regular argument ("I voted to regain political control") to one of the other excuses ("it's all the EU's fault things are going tits up").


Pardon me - I didn't realise I was only allowed to have *one* line of argument.


Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 24 2018, 08:18 AM) *
In other words 'you say pot-ay-to, I say pot-ah-to'? rolleyes.gif
Pardon me - I didn't realise I was only allowed to have *one* line of argument.


1. No, they lied on the Leave campaign. Virtually everything said by the Remain campaign has been correct to date (we still havent left)

2. You are only allowed to have one line of argument when you have claimed many times in the past that you only voted for one reason.

PS it's not an argument, it's propaganda. Stay in the EU you continue to get the benefits. leave, you don't. It really is that simple. Otherwise it's not the EU, it's the EU plus special freind who isnt subject to the same rules as everyone else who doesnt pay to have access to the EU or have actual agreements.

Feel free to point out other countries that have special arrangements that they dont pay for.....
5 Silas Frøkner
The customs system favoured by the brain dead morons in charge would cost UK business £20bn. 3 times more than the cost of our EU membership.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 24 2018, 08:35 AM) *
1. No, they lied on the Leave campaign. Virtually everything said by the Remain campaign has been correct to date (we still havent left)

2. You are only allowed to have one line of argument when you have claimed many times in the past that you only voted for one reason.

PS it's not an argument, it's propaganda. Stay in the EU you continue to get the benefits. leave, you don't. It really is that simple. Otherwise it's not the EU, it's the EU plus special freind who isnt subject to the same rules as everyone else who doesnt pay to have access to the EU or have actual agreements.

Feel free to point out other countries that have special arrangements that they dont pay for.....


1. No doubt you are expecting me to say 'Tough luck, you still lost'? IMO Remainers would have been just as arrogant if they'd won, though.

2. I voted for one *main* reason - I never said their weren't others too - its you that claim any reasons I cite are invalid.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I knew perfectly well that a vote to Leave meant a Hard Brexit.
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 24 2018, 09:25 AM) *
1. Whose this 'we' you are talking about - surely if we were happy about it, we wouldn't have voted for Brexit?

2. That's why I posted my comment as a question, rather than a statement. And I wouldn't have even mentioned the ethical aspect if I wasn't against unethical business practices - I assumed that would be blindingly obvious to anyone here!


1. whats brexit got to do with foreign billionaires? if anything the EU is chasing them in new legislation coming in 2019. co-incidentally just after we leave..... funny that, almost as if the tory millionaires were afraid they be forced to reveal where their money is (Hint: offshore)

2. Never blindingly obvious what your views are on any subject because you regularly say you have right to withhold them and not make any comments. Besides which you are consistently contradictory. See (1) above for an example. Or reading the daily mail a paper owned by an EU-dwelling billionaire, or supporting Farage, a public-school millionaire who keeps bankrupting himself through his own uselessness. Trusting millionaires seems to be a "thing"....
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 24 2018, 09:17 AM) *
1. No doubt you are expecting me to say 'Tough luck, you still lost'? IMO Remainers would have been just as arrogant if they'd won, though.

2. I voted for one *main* reason - I never said their weren't others too - its you that claim any reasons I cite are invalid.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I knew perfectly well that a vote to Leave meant a Hard Brexit.


1. No we wouldnt. Life would have carried on as if it never happened and Farage would have kept on moaning demanding another referendum as the result was too close to call.

2. No, facts claim your reasons are invalid. Explain why the EU should give the UK a deal that no other country in the world has with the EU. If you can't come up with a single reason that stands up to scrutiny then your comment is just bitchin' propaganda rather than based on the reality of making a trade deal with a non-EU country (which usually takes up to a decade or two).

3. But you kept on (until last week) trying to speak for other people, saying they all voted for the same result and reason. It appears we have had a breakthrough on reality yahoo.gif cheer.gif

BTW looking more and more like the Tories are being forced into providing that NHS 350m (nothing to do with Brexit agreement we havent got yet though) - it's to put the NHS back into it's normal increases (over 10 years) to avoid looking like a complete bunch of lying tosspots about that bloody bus. They have been forced into it by the top of the NHS making a statement that embarrasses the government (ie the people who lied about it and made it an issue linked to the EU)....

Hoist. Petard.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 24 2018, 01:01 PM) *
Hoist. Petard.


DGAC.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 24 2018, 12:52 PM) *
2. Never blindingly obvious what your views are on any subject because you regularly say you have right to withhold them and not make any comments. Besides which you are consistently contradictory. See (1) above for an example. Or reading the daily mail a paper owned by an EU-dwelling billionaire, or supporting Farage, a public-school millionaire who keeps bankrupting himself through his own uselessness. Trusting millionaires seems to be a "thing"....


I don't get why Brexit is such a big deal to you anyway - according to your profile, you are 60, so it's not like you have long term career prospects depending on the EU? unsure.gif
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 24 2018, 02:15 PM) *
I don't get why Brexit is such a big deal to you anyway - according to your profile, you are 60, so it's not like you have long term career prospects depending on the EU? unsure.gif


I don't get why you even bothered to vote it's not as if you'll be alive to enjoy it in 30 years when the economy recovers.

I'm still working thanks, and seeing my salary decline against inflation for a decade, while also caring for 2 parents with no state aid whatsoever, thanks and I have many many nephews nieces great nephews and great nieces who will suffer thanks to the selfish old gits who havent a clue about reality.

Plus, hey I'm not a selfish c**t, I do things because I think it'll be best for other people and how it affects me is of less importance.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 24 2018, 09:48 PM) *
I don't get why you even bothered to vote it's not as if you'll be alive to enjoy it in 30 years when the economy recovers.


touché

QUOTE
I'm still working thanks, and seeing my salary decline against inflation for a decade, while also caring for 2 parents with no state aid whatsoever, thanks and I have many many nephews nieces great nephews and great nieces who will suffer thanks to the selfish old gits who havent a clue about reality.
My parents are both gone, years ago, but to you I suppose they would've fallen into the category of 'selfish old gits who haven't a clue about reality'...

Also, I too have loads of nieces/nephews/great nieces/nephews - and their sake is one of the main reasons I voted *Leave*!

QUOTE
Plus, hey I'm not a selfish c**t, I do things because I think it'll be best for other people and how it affects me is of less importance.


That's sums up the motivation behind my previous sentence.
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 06:56 AM) *
touché

My parents are both gone, years ago, but to you I suppose they would've fallen into the category of 'selfish old gits who haven't a clue about reality'...

Also, I too have loads of nieces/nephews/great nieces/nephews - and their sake is one of the main reasons I voted *Leave*!
That's sums up the motivation behind my previous sentence.


My parents would not and never have supported Brexit. Stop supposing what I would say about people who arent alive and how they would hypothetically vote. I'm talking specifically about those who had information at their fingertips and did it anyway, or the racists. The idiots who just didnt understand what was going on and got taken in by the lies and propaganda is much more forgivable.

You have a great way of showing support for a generation of young people who don't WANT you to speak for them and like me see their rights being taken away. Thanks, on their behalf, for believing you know what's good for them. You don't. I'm older than you, as you have pointed out, and much much wiser, sonny.

If you TRULY believed that a tanking economy, no deals, not much in the way of alternative national incomes and people struggling to make a living would be solved by voting for something that makes things much worse for an untold number of years you are self-deluded and using that reasoning as an excuse given the amount of evidence. Unless you DO actually realise now how damaging it has been, will be, and are trying to rewrite your reasons for voting for it (which you have claimed were just to be rid of the "undemocratic" EU political system, given you have never provided any evidence of any real way in which young people would benefit.

We have lots of young British people on Buzzjack. Please feel free to explain to them now how your vote has definitely made their future much brighter than it otherwise would have been, and let them have a right to reply to your suggestions. I will say nothing, just to be fair, being just as old and wizened as you.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 25 2018, 08:33 AM) *
My parents would not and never have supported Brexit. Stop supposing what I would say about people who arent alive and how they would hypothetically vote. I'm talking specifically about those who had information at their fingertips and did it anyway, or the racists. The idiots who just didnt understand what was going on and got taken in by the lies and propaganda is much more forgivable.


Well, I know my late mother would have voted for Brexit if she'd lived until 2016 - she expressed Eurosceptic views regularly, yet she was very far from being racist.

QUOTE
You have a great way of showing support for a generation of young people who don't WANT you to speak for them and like me see their rights being taken away. Thanks, on their behalf, for believing you know what's good for them. You don't. I'm older than you, as you have pointed out, and much much wiser, sonny.
They had the same chance to vote in the Referendum as I did.

QUOTE
If you TRULY believed that a tanking economy, no deals, not much in the way of alternative national incomes and people struggling to make a living would be solved by voting for something that makes things much worse for an untold number of years you are self-deluded and using that reasoning as an excuse given the amount of evidence. Unless you DO actually realise now how damaging it has been, will be,


Unlike you, I will wait for *facts*, not partisan Remainer speculation.

Also, perhaps you can show me a law which requires people to vote selflessly?

QUOTE
We have lots of young British people on Buzzjack. Please feel free to explain to them now how your vote has definitely made their future much brighter than it otherwise would have been, and let them have a right to reply to your suggestions.


What we have here is a self-selecting group of people who are far more interested in politics than the general public - on that basis you cannot prove they are representative of young people in general though.
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 08:50 AM) *
Well, I know my late mother would have voted for Brexit if she'd lived until 2016 - she expressed Eurosceptic views regularly, yet she was very far from being racist.

They had the same chance to vote in the Referendum as I did.
Unlike you, I will wait for *facts*, not partisan Remainer speculation.
What we have here is a self-selecting group of people who are far more interested in politics than the general public - on that basis you cannot prove they are representative of young people in general though.


Never claimed your mother was anything. My mother loves people, even with advanced alzheimers she still loves people and warmly welcomes everyone. My dad didnt believe a word of the liars who lied about Brexit. He's 81 and was one of the older generation who overwhelmingly voted to join the Common Market for safer more prosperous Europe. Mission accomplished, but taken for granted by their stroppy children.

They were outvoted (just) due to lies and propaganda and illegal activity from the Leave campaign. Now the older generation has popped off over the 2 years since we can have another vote on the final deal minus all the lies and propaganda and see for sure what everyone wants. Given your comment about waiting for facts (the failing economy and other evidence since the day after the referendum obviously having passed you by) I look forward to your support on a final vote on whether to accept the final deal or remain in Europe. Based on FACTS.

Never claimed young people here were representative of anything. If your case for voting for them on their future behalf (which I note you have failed to do for at least 2 years) because you know whats best for them, then it should be a piece of piss to provide evidence to that effect. And if your evidence is strong then it should stand up to scrutiny.

Of course if your argument is based on "cos I said so" then excuse me for thinking you have no case whatsoever and just enjoy repeating the same old non-arguments endlessly.

While steadfastly refusing to give anyone a final vote once we have FACTS. If FACTS are irrelevant to anyone looking into the future well-being of the UK, then that person is not interested in democracy, they are only interested in getting their own way. For one, I'm perfectly happy to abide by a final vote on the final deal free from lies and propaganda, with no more moaning whingeing or couldabeens because everyone will have had an informed concrete thing to vote on. Not vague wishful thinkings.

How about you?

Thought not.



vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 25 2018, 09:52 AM) *
They were outvoted (just) due to lies and propaganda and illegal activity from the Leave campaign.


I've never denied there were lies & propaganda involved - but that has probably been the case in every voting campaign since the ancient Greeks first invented democracy! tongue.gif

My contentions are that,

1. The Remain campaign wasn't as squeaky clean as they's like us to believe.

2. Thay any chicanery was not enough to change the overall result.

QUOTE
Of course if your argument is based on "cos I said so" then excuse me for thinking you have no case whatsoever and just enjoy repeating the same old non-arguments endlessly.
Since you've already made that prejudgement about me, nothing I could say would change your mind.

QUOTE
While steadfastly refusing to give anyone a final vote once we have FACTS. If FACTS are irrelevant to anyone looking into the future well-being of the UK, then that person is not interested in democracy, they are only interested in getting their own way. For one, I'm perfectly happy to abide by a final vote on the final deal free from lies and propaganda, with no more moaning whingeing or couldabeens because everyone will have had an informed concrete thing to vote on. Not vague wishful thinkings.


What sort of 2nd vote did you have in mind - a repeat of the original question, or an accept/reject one on the deal?
Suedehead2
Meanwhile, the government are still busily filling the "You couldn't make it up" files.

Several years ago the EU decided to develop its own sat-nav system rather than relying on the Americans. You might call it taking back control. The UK government wasn't particularly keen (after all, we wouldn't want to upset the Americans) but eventually agreed to it. However, the UK government did insist that rules were put in place to restrict access for non-EU members. Guess what? The UK government now wants to have full access to the system even if we leave the EU. They have even threatened to develop a separate British system if the EU don't play ball. I think we can imagine how that might work out.

And there's more. Some people in the Remain camp warned that the UK's participation in the European Arrest Warrant scheme (under which hundreds of alleged criminals have been returned to Britain to face trial and hundreds of others have gone in the opposite direction) might be endangered if we leave. That, of course, was dismissed as part of Project Fear. Guess what? The EU are reminding the UK government that the EAW is specifically an EU scheme.

As others have pointed out, after years of being an EU member with a whole load of opt-outs, the UK now wants to be a non-member with a whole load of opt-ins (even though Mayhem had said that Leave meant leaving all EU bodies).

Oh, and there's another one. The EU are currently taking action against the UK government for failing to apply air quality standards. Gove and Hunt have responded by saying that, outside the EU, we should strict standards. Leaving aside the fact that there is nothing to stop the UK (or any other EU state) adopting standards that go beyond the EU minimum, wouldn't it be a good idea to make sure we abide by the current standards first?
vidsanta
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ May 25 2018, 03:45 PM) *
Meanwhile, the government are still busily filling the "You couldn't make it up" files.

Several years ago the EU decided to develop its own sat-nav system rather than relying on the Americans. You might call it taking back control. The UK government wasn't particularly keen (after all, we wouldn't want to upset the Americans) but eventually agreed to it. However, the UK government did insist that rules were put in place to restrict access for non-EU members. Guess what? The UK government now wants to have full access to the system even if we leave the EU. They have even threatened to develop a separate British system if the EU don't play ball. I think we can imagine how that might work out.


I'm assuming some of our money is invested in this, so we should either get access to it, or a refund.
Suedehead2
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 03:54 PM) *
I'm assuming some of our money is invested in this, so we should either get access to it, or a refund.

Why? The government has chosen to walk out of the EU and its projects. Leave means leave as the hardliners constantly remind us.
December Dong
Surely whatever a red white and blue Brexit is means that the UK will have its own British systems and not EU ones? Not very efficient, I know, but then neither is a tiny island outside a continent-wide club all by itself relying on Donald Trump and arms sales to the mideast
5 Silas Frøkner
Every. SINGLE. Day this somehow manages to become a dumber and dumber idea. Someone in either government or opposition needs to grow a pair and stand up and say "yeah so this is a bit of a shit plan isn't it? how about we stop wasting time and money on this and instead fix our health, education, care and social security systems?"
Suedehead2
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 25 2018, 09:10 PM) *
Every. SINGLE. Day this somehow manages to become a dumber and dumber idea. Someone in either government or opposition needs to grow a pair and stand up and say "yeah so this is a bit of a shit plan isn't it? how about we stop wasting time and money on this and instead fix our health, education, care and social security systems?"

I suggest you follow Tom Brake o Twitter. He does this every day.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ May 25 2018, 04:14 PM) *
Why? The government has chosen to walk out of the EU and its projects. Leave means leave as the hardliners constantly remind us.


I'll tell you why - they're expecting a 'divorce' settlement from us on the basis of lost income, so why shouldn't our settlement allow for our investment in ongoing projects that we will now get no benefit from? Neither side can both have their cake & eat it.

On a side issue, it should be pointed out that even EU countries are split on the issue of the EU sat-nav system - some of them support us.
vidsanta
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 25 2018, 09:10 PM) *
Every. SINGLE. Day this somehow manages to become a dumber and dumber idea. Someone in either government or opposition needs to grow a pair and stand up and say "yeah so this is a bit of a shit plan isn't it? how about we stop wasting time and money on this and instead fix our health, education, care and social security systems?"


Well there's the 'slight inconvenience' of ongoing public support for Brexit, which is not going to go away - and we have numbers on our side unless/until proven otherwise.

IF you think the gov't is unpopular *now*, just imagine what it would be like if they reneged on the result of a vote that they themselves called!

Maybe some of you might think the resulting civil unrest would be worth the price, but IMO that would be worse than any conceivable fallout from Brexit!
5 Silas Frøkner
That is the funniest thing you’ve ever posted! Civil unrest. Loooooooooool sure jan.

They’d get over it once the conditions that lead to their vote were rectified (harsh austerity cuts to education and local services giving a false impression that we’re full or that migration is breaking us)
vidsanta
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 26 2018, 09:19 AM) *
That is the funniest thing you’ve ever posted! Civil unrest. Loooooooooool sure jan.


Who is Jan? unsure.gif

You seriously think we Leavers will sit back & do nothing if the gov't pissed all over our democracy? huh.gif

QUOTE
They’d get over it once the conditions that lead to their vote were rectified (harsh austerity cuts to education and local services giving a false impression that we’re full or that migration is breaking us)


And you think *I'm* naive?
5 Silas Frøkner
Yes i do. Gamon doesn't protest, they have heart attacks on question time
vidsanta
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ May 26 2018, 10:49 AM) *
Gamon doesn't protest, they have heart attacks on question time


I have no idea what that means? unsure.gif
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 11:36 AM) *
I've never denied there were lies & propaganda involved - but that has probably been the case in every voting campaign since the ancient Greeks first invented democracy! tongue.gif

My contentions are that,

1. The Remain campaign wasn't as squeaky clean as they's like us to believe.

2. Thay any chicanery was not enough to change the overall result.

Since you've already made that prejudgement about me, nothing I could say would change your mind.
What sort of 2nd vote did you have in mind - a repeat of the original question, or an accept/reject one on the deal?


1. Then give examples. I can give shitloads of lies as examples from almost everything claimed by all of the leading Brexiters during the campaign, after the campaign, and even now with the facts staring them in the face.

2. Important decisions should not be decided by who tells the best lies. That way lies insanity and disaster.

3. Clearly lies and corruption did influence the result, it was very close, and if telling the truth would have been more than enough to win the argument then the Leave campaign would have been satisfied to do that. Your logic as usual is flawed and self-contradictory. We can resolve this argument (ie your flawed opinion) by having another referendum on the final deal. You don't want to because you know LIES DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE RESULT. Stop pretending otherwise, or just accept the logic of another vote to prove once and for evermore that lies don't make any difference.

4. I don't need to make pre-judgements about you. I have many many many previous examples of the exact arguments you consistently use. And those you vacillate between when it suits you.

5. You know exactly what sort of vote I mean Ive said it dozens of times and this thread specifically says not to repeat previous arguments. Is your memory really THAT bad? (Cos that would explain quite a lot about how you view the world)
Holly and Izzy
The pro-Remain marches have been maybe a couple of thousand strong, and have been peaceful. The other half of the country is not going to be significantly more belligerent if the tables get flipped, it's just going to go back to being even more miserable and pessimistic than they currently are, on the winning side, no less, in the Express/Mail comment section.
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 25 2018, 03:54 PM) *
I'm assuming some of our money is invested in this, so we should either get access to it, or a refund.


presumably in the same way as someone agreeing to buy something as a member of a club, putting it in legal writing, then deciding they don't want to leave the club but still have access to the club?

Sounds familiar. It's what the lying brexiters told us we could have in the campaign to leave the EU, and they told us that we couldn't. That Leave means Leave.

But by all means blame the EU for making us decide to leave and making us abide by the rules of non-club-members.
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 26 2018, 06:40 AM) *
I'll tell you why - they're expecting a 'divorce' settlement from us on the basis of lost income, so why shouldn't our settlement allow for our investment in ongoing projects that we will now get no benefit from? Neither side can both have their cake & eat it.

On a side issue, it should be pointed out that even EU countries are split on the issue of the EU sat-nav system - some of them support us.


No, it's NOT a divorce settlement, it's called paying debts that you have signed up to, right up to the moment you leave the club. Big difference. We arent fighting over the kids. The EU have entire custody of everything. The UK is walking the streets with a begging bowl.

There is no reason we can't remain part of the project - if we remain contributing to the EU in various areas and both sides agree. It's called "Trading Agreement". There is no automatic right to anything on either side. You have to AGREE. I realise this is an alien concept to Brexiters who feel that the world owes us everything because we are British!! How very dare they not give us everything we want immediately....!! The cheek. We're British!!!
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 26 2018, 06:46 AM) *
Well there's the 'slight inconvenience' of ongoing public support for Brexit, which is not going to go away - and we have numbers on our side unless/until proven otherwise.

IF you think the gov't is unpopular *now*, just imagine what it would be like if they reneged on the result of a vote that they themselves called!

Maybe some of you might think the resulting civil unrest would be worth the price, but IMO that would be worse than any conceivable fallout from Brexit!


1. If that's true then you wont have a problem with testing that in a final vote.

2. They would be equally unpopular as they are with Remainers, since the vote was split and large numbers of people didnt express a preference. Besides which no one is asking anybody to renege on anything. They asking for a final vote on the final agreed deal by way of comparing what was promised with what is delivered.

3. So, civil unrest. Why then are people not rioting in the streets to remain in the EU? Are you suggesting that remainers are somehow more law-abiding than Leavers? Are you suggesting that rioting is not criminal beahviour and that these criminals who riot shouldnt immediately be subject to the same instant violent justice that you claim all criminals should be subject to?
vidsanta
QUOTE(Popchartfreak @ May 26 2018, 01:12 PM) *
1. If that's true then you wont have a problem with testing that in a final vote.

2. They would be equally unpopular as they are with Remainers, since the vote was split and large numbers of people didnt express a preference. Besides which no one is asking anybody to renege on anything. They asking for a final vote on the final agreed deal by way of comparing what was promised with what is delivered.

3. So, civil unrest. Why then are people not rioting in the streets to remain in the EU? Are you suggesting that remainers are somehow more law-abiding than Leavers? Are you suggesting that rioting is not criminal beahviour and that these criminals who riot shouldnt immediately be subject to the same instant violent justice that you claim all criminals should be subject to?


1. You keep on throwing this back as me as if I've opposed the idea. However, I'd be OK with another vote as long as it wasn't a Remain-favouriing 'heads we win, tails you lose' one : e.g. a) Accept the negotiated deal or, b) Stay in the EU.

2. But we can't take into account those who didn't express a preference, because, well, they didn't express a preference... rolleyes.gif

3. Because, unlike many posters here, a good proportion of Remainer supporters *accept* the democratic vote. Here's an interesting blog on this subject, by Owen Jones of your beloved Guardian, no less...

https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/why-im-a-re...ult-d198dbc99c2

As for civil unrest (I never said *rioting* - that was your term), it could potentially involve a significant proportion of the population, rather than a few thousand disgruntled thugs, as in the London riots of 2011, so the police simply could not cope with that level of unrest. Still, I guess any gov't prepared to ignore a democratic vote would presumably have no qualms in machine-gunning protesters like some 3rd world dictatorship...
December Dong
WHAT

It was a 50/50 ADVISORY vote in a representative democracy. It ABSOLUTELY can ignore the advice given by 52% in favour of the more reasonable opinion of the 48% and 2 nations plus Gibraltar. Canada didn't machine gun anyone when it ignored Quebec. Australia didn't when it ignored the northwest voting for independence. Please.
Suedehead2
I agree with Oewn Jones on many things; I disagree with what he said in the article you provide. That's because I don't blindly follow the thoughts of anyone - apart from my own well-considered thoughts of course.

Meanwhile, here is an analysis by one of the country's leading pollsters.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/pe...swing-to-remain


vidsanta
QUOTE(Queef of Peace @ May 26 2018, 03:21 PM) *
WHAT

It was a 50/50 ADVISORY vote in a representative democracy. It ABSOLUTELY can ignore the advice given by 52% in favour of the more reasonable opinion of the 48% and 2 nations plus Gibraltar. Canada didn't machine gun anyone when it ignored Quebec. Australia didn't when it ignored the northwest voting for independence. Please.


Referenda are not decided on the entirely subjective 'which is the more reasonable result' - but by the completely objective 'number of votes cast for each choice'.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Suedehead2 @ May 26 2018, 04:09 PM) *
I agree with Oewn Jones on many things; I disagree with what he said in the article you provide. That's because I don't blindly follow the thoughts of anyone - apart from my own well-considered thoughts of course.

Meanwhile, here is an analysis by one of the country's leading pollsters.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/blogs/pe...swing-to-remain


Concentrating on one particular section (if nothing else, to show I did at least check out the article) :

Indeed, given the softness of the Leave support among Labour voters, it is possible that, IF there were a new referendum and IF the Labour Party campaigned actively to stay in the EU, then the Remain majority could be substantial. This would, of course, require Jeremy Corbyn to abandon his past views of Brussels, which have ranged from lack of enthusiasm to outright hostility. But a change in his stance would have the backing of almost all his party’s MPs and large majorities of party members and Momentum activists. If he needed further temptation to change tack, his backing for staying in the EU could help to inflict a huge defeat on the government.

Surely if Corbyn changed sides he might well lose some Leave supporters who had previously stuck with the unofficial party Remain line? unsure.gif
Popchartfreak
QUOTE(vidcapper @ May 26 2018, 03:16 PM) *
1. You keep on throwing this back as me as if I've opposed the idea. However, I'd be OK with another vote as long as it wasn't a Remain-favouriing 'heads we win, tails you lose' one : e.g. a) Accept the negotiated deal or, b) Stay in the EU.

2. But we can't take into account those who didn't express a preference, because, well, they didn't express a preference... rolleyes.gif

3. Because, unlike many posters here, a good proportion of Remainer supporters *accept* the democratic vote. Here's an interesting blog on this subject, by Owen Jones of your beloved Guardian, no less...

https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/why-im-a-re...ult-d198dbc99c2

As for civil unrest (I never said *rioting* - that was your term), it could potentially involve a significant proportion of the population, rather than a few thousand disgruntled thugs, as in the London riots of 2011, so the police simply could not cope with that level of unrest. Still, I guess any gov't prepared to ignore a democratic vote would presumably have no qualms in machine-gunning protesters like some 3rd world dictatorship...


1. Thats not a referndum, that's blackmail. Take it or accept the worst-case scenario. Which is what you want. Thats not democracy. You are afraid of democracy.

2. Thats what I said.

3. Accepting the democratic vote is not the same thing as jumping off a cliff because everyone was assured there is a mattress 60feet tall filled with riches beyond your wildest dreams, only to find its a sack with rocks in it. You dont force everyone to jump off the cliff you give them a chance to review their opinion. And then act based on that if everyone still decides to jump.
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