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Doctor Blind
Continue that exciting Brexit chat here as we count down to the WA2.0 debate on Saturday.

Latest projection from the FT:
Crazy Chris-tmas
Lib-Dem Norman Lamb, who is not standing at the next election, has said he'll back the deal. ohmy.gif
December Dong
What a joke! They votes against Mad May's 3x just to torpedo her and put one of their posh boys in charge instead! Atrocious deal.

If that joke of a deal passes, then not only are Labour turning the country into a PERMANENT Tory one party state for the next 20 years at least, but it will be far hardar to rejoin. Those Tory shetbags won't run a second referendum, no matter how bad it gets for the average man.
Doctor Blind
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 17 2019, 11:25 PM) *
Lib-Dem Norman Lamb, who is not standing at the next election, has said he'll back the deal. ohmy.gif


Yes, he's included in the numbers up there. As are the 7 Labour MPs already confirmed to be backing the deal.
Brett-Butler
The most interesting thing about those projections - I've learned that Change UK is still going under a new name. No idea why they're still bothering though. Is the 1 Lib Dem MP in that projection the one who resigned the whip to vote for May's original deal, or someone else?

*edit* - oh, it's Sheepie.
5 Silas Frøkner
QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 17 2019, 11:12 PM) *
The Scots are annoying me on QT. "We didn't vote for this" Excuse me but Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and in 2016 the UK AS A WHOLE voted to Leave the EU. So tough.
”The Scots”. Do one hun. Her name is Dr Philippa Whitford and she is a breast cancer specialist surgeon with 20 years surgical experience. Show her the respect she deserves.

You’ve been told time and time again. In 2014 we were told there would be no EU referendum and we’d stay an EU member and voting No was the only way to stay an EU member. The Scottish public were lied to. 2016 was a complete betrayal of the 2014 vote. The UK as a whole didn’t vote to leave, England voted to leave and that was that. It didn’t matter what the rest of the country wanted so long as Sunderland could vote itself into the dole queue


QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 17 2019, 11:16 PM) *
The good news is: if this Tory shit passes, we can all move to an indeoendent Scotland. It's still the same island. The culture's basically the same. The cities and towns and countryside look familiar to anyone in the north east/ Cumbria, so it wouldn't even be that big of a change.

Except the accent and language is very different!

QUOTE(Freddie Kruger @ Oct 17 2019, 11:18 PM) *
Last time the Scots wanted to stay in the UK and may still do next time.

Trust me. None of my compatriots want to share a country with people like you. We will vote to leave the shackles of England
December Dong
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 17 2019, 11:31 PM) *
”The Scots”. Do one hun. Her name is Dr Philippa Whitford and she is a breast cancer specialist surgeon with 20 years surgical experience. Show her the respect she deserves.

You’ve been told time and time again. In 2014 we were told there would be no EU referendum and we’d stay an EU member and voting No was the only way to stay an EU member. The Scottish public were lied to. 2016 was a complete betrayal of the 2014 vote. The UK as a whole didn’t vote to leave, England voted to leave and that was that. It didn’t matter what the rest of the country wanted so long as Sunderland could vote itself into the dole queue
Except the accent and language is very different!
Trust me. None of my compatriots want to share a country with people like you. We will vote to leave the shackles of England


I honestlt kept thinking I was hearing prople from me city when I was last in Scotland laugh.gif It sounded almost identical if I wasn't paying attention. Scotland's the best part of the country, excepr for Oxford and Cambridge, so remainers get to keep the best bit.
5 Silas Frøkner
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 17 2019, 11:34 PM) *
I honestlt kept thinking I was hearing prople from me city when I was last in Scotland laugh.gif It sounded almost identical if I wasn't paying attention. Scotland's the best part of the country, excepr for Oxford and Cambridge, so remainers get to keep the best bit.

Get yourself a hearing test at specsavers Michael!! Not even Berwick-upon-Tweed has an accent close to the Scottish accents. Never mind the ones deeper into Geordieland!!
December Dong
Did that troll actually just say that?!

No one voted for this shit deal. Scotland, a COUNTRY, voted to remain. It was 2 v 2. The end. They are in the right. Go bonnie Scotland! Time for Caledonian Antisyzygy to come to an end. Time for independence, and all the polls are backing it already. Imagine after brexshit!

I'm just laugh.gif at how sneaky and slimy the Tories are, supporting one deal over a better one based on who is presenting it. Vile.
Doctor Blind
QUOTE(Trick Or Queef! @ Oct 17 2019, 11:37 PM) *
I'm just laugh.gif at how sneaky and slimy the Tories are, supporting one deal over a better one based on who is presenting it. Vile.


Indeed, or how quickly they can just brush over this:

December Dong
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 17 2019, 11:43 PM) *
Indeed, or how quickly they can just brush over this:



If we had an actually non-biased media, things like him would never, ever get elected.
5 Silas Frøkner
The silver lining to this absolute horror show is that the insanity of the VAT regime is going to provide a good decade of work for me and my colleagues in Indirect Tax Consulting.
December Dong
Also, if I got PURGED from my party by a jumped up unelected beaurocrat through his useful idiot, I would do them NO favours with any votes. Tories are so weak!
Crazy Chris-tmas
Won't be posting tomorrow. You deserve a break from me. Am sure Michael can post for both of us.
ChristmaSteve201
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 17 2019, 11:31 PM) *
”The Scots”. Do one hun. Her name is Dr Philippa Whitford and she is a breast cancer specialist surgeon with 20 years surgical experience. Show her the respect she deserves.

You’ve been told time and time again. In 2014 we were told there would be no EU referendum and we’d stay an EU member and voting No was the only way to stay an EU member. The Scottish public were lied to. 2016 was a complete betrayal of the 2014 vote. The UK as a whole didn’t vote to leave, England voted to leave and that was that. It didn’t matter what the rest of the country wanted so long as Sunderland could vote itself into the dole queue
Except the accent and language is very different!
Trust me. None of my compatriots want to share a country with people like you. We will vote to leave the shackles of England


I agree with all you say but wasn't the referendum declared in 2013 (if DC won an election)? Before the Scottish referendum!?
5 Silas Frøkner
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Oct 18 2019, 01:21 AM) *
I agree with all you say but wasn't the referendum declared in 2013 (if DC won an election)? Before the Scottish referendum!?

Yeah it was before and the SNP did make plenty of references to it but all the unionists denied it would happen, denied we’d ever leave, denied there could ever be a circumstance where Scotland voted remain and we left because of England. EU membership was one of the big big vote killers for Yes last time because the unionist line was parroted by the media (remembering all but the Sunday Herald was pro-No) and by the No campaign at every single opportunity. It was effective. There’s countless quotes and clips of “The only way to remove Scotland’s EU membership is to vote Yes”

And here we are. Fundamental change in circumstances and the electorate was lied to. We should get another say. Clearly Scotland and England want different futures, why tie each other down? Oh yeah! Our oil.
Envoirment
QUOTE(Doctor Blind @ Oct 17 2019, 11:25 PM) *
Continue that exciting Brexit chat here as we count down to the WA2.0 debate on Saturday.

Latest projection from the FT:


How accurate is the FT? Given how close it looks, I doubt it gets through. Particularly as it assumes almost 100% of conservative MPs (independent or not) supporting it. Saturday is going to be a long day, but potentially game changing as well.
vidsanta
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 17 2019, 08:59 PM) *
You’re less than a year away from a successful vote for Scotland repealing the Act of Union and re-establishing itself as an independent European nation


Aren't you jumping the gun a bit?
vidsanta
Going back to Queef's idea of 3-1 country approval for brexit - should London also remain in because they voted strongly against Brexit - after all, its population is roughly the same as Scotland's? rolleyes.gif

Or for that matter, why not decide whether to Remain or Leave on an individual constituency basis? rotf.gif

Holly and Izzy
Think about why people are making these suggestions. We’ve never had a vote before that forcibly stripped half the country of rights they would have rather kept. I think it’s really rather callous to laugh about it.

Freedom of movement is no joke, it’s so much better on expatriated workers than a long and stressful visa process. The EU arrangement we had was no joke, it was the best any country ever had. Once we leave and things turn out bad, it will be very unlikely we will ever get such a good deal back.
vidsanta
QUOTE(Tones and Iz @ Oct 18 2019, 07:16 AM) *
Think about why people are making these suggestions. We’ve never had a vote before that forcibly stripped half the country of rights they would have rather kept. I think it’s really rather callous to laugh about it.


We had a free & fair vote - would it have been any different for almost half the country to be forced to stay in an institution against their will?
Holly and Izzy
They lose no rights by staying in.
blacksquare
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 07:33 AM) *
We had a free & fair vote - would it have been any different for almost half the country to be forced to stay in an institution against their will?


Leave campaigned on the idea that we would get the best ever deal and leaving would be easy. This deal is not it.

A slim win should not result in a hard Brexit. Would you have been happy if Remain won with 52% and then adopted the Euro and Schengen? Of course not. There has been no understanding or compromise for essentially half of the country. So, no, it’s not funny.


blacksquare
The deal, if it passes, will only do so due to fatigue.

Insane, really. The notion of getting it done and moving on is ridiculous when this deal all but confirms the Brexit conversation is here for years to come. It’s just the beginning.
blacksquare
Dominic Raab telling BBC4 that Northern Ireland is getting a great deal because they get to stay in the single market with frictionless trade. You can’t make it up.
5 Silas Frøkner
Oh no everyone in the UK would continue to have amazing employment protections, world leading food and product safety standards and a charter of rights as protected by the ECHR. What a horrid thing to wake up to


Absolute f***ing melt
5 Silas Frøkner
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:43 AM) *
Dominic Raab telling BBC4 that Northern Ireland is getting a great deal because they get to stay in the single market with frictionless trade. You can’t make it up.

There’s a team of people at SNP HQ popping champagne over these quotes. The campaign materials are just writing themselves
ChristmaSteve201
QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 18 2019, 01:38 AM) *
Yeah it was before and the SNP did make plenty of references to it but all the unionists denied it would happen, denied we’d ever leave, denied there could ever be a circumstance where Scotland voted remain and we left because of England. EU membership was one of the big big vote killers for Yes last time because the unionist line was parroted by the media (remembering all but the Sunday Herald was pro-No) and by the No campaign at every single opportunity. It was effective. There’s countless quotes and clips of “The only way to remove Scotland’s EU membership is to vote Yes”

And here we are. Fundamental change in circumstances and the electorate was lied to. We should get another say. Clearly Scotland and England want different futures, why tie each other down? Oh yeah! Our oil.


Exactly, Ireland is the same but we knew the union was an unequal partnership more than 100 years ago, that's what famine and mass emigration do to your politics.
ChristmaSteve201
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 07:04 AM) *
Going back to Queef's idea of 3-1 country approval for brexit - should London also remain in because they voted strongly against Brexit - after all, its population is roughly the same as Scotland's? rolleyes.gif

Or for that matter, why not decide whether to Remain or Leave on an individual constituency basis? rotf.gif


Surely Londons populations is many times more than Scotlands??
Doctor Blind


laugh.gif
vidsanta
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:31 AM) *
Leave campaigned on the idea that we would get the best ever deal and leaving would be easy. This deal is not it.


So they had to compromise, any sensible person would realise & accept that. mellow.gif
Suedehead2
QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:43 AM) *
Dominic Raab telling BBC4 that Northern Ireland is getting a great deal because they get to stay in the single market with frictionless trade. You can’t make it up.

I was about to post exactly the same thing - including the bit about how you couldn't make it up. Naturally, Raab won't put himself in a position where he might be asked some awkward questions about this statement. Similarly, the press won't highlight the utter hypocrisy of the man.
Suedehead2
Susie Dent's word of the day is bayard. It is defined as someone with an unshakeable self-confidence that is rooted in ignorance. I wonder if she had anyone in mind.
mald487
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 08:59 AM) *
So they had to compromise, any sensible person would realise & accept that. mellow.gif


Any sensible person/persons that were negotiating would have been open to compromise from the start rather than drawing lines in the sand and expecting a bloc of 27 to bend over and give the world to one outgoing member.

The f*** awful situation we are in now, and the even worse situation we may be in after tomorrow is entirely down to wreckless behaviour on our governments part. The opposite of sensible.
blacksquare
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 18 2019, 09:59 AM) *
So they had to compromise, any sensible person would realise & accept that. mellow.gif


It's not sensible, and you know that.

QUOTE(blacksquare @ Oct 18 2019, 08:31 AM) *
A slim win should not result in a hard Brexit. Would you have been happy if Remain won with 52% and then adopted the Euro and Schengen?


JingleBellJüpes
Brexiteers: you gain nothing but a sense of superiority.

Its the definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

'Sovereignity!' 'Make our own laws!' these are all just buzzwords that mean f all. The UK is not self sufficient and the world operates under a global economy.
blacksquare
This doesn't stop no-deal.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this deal pass, and then the government wasting the next year negotiating a free trade agreement but failing (they take longer than a year even with a competent government) and defaulting us into no-deal in January 2021.
5 Silas Frøkner
QUOTE(Steve201 @ Oct 18 2019, 09:05 AM) *
Surely Londons populations is many times more than Scotlands??

8.2m vs 5.5m. So about 50% larger.

Scotland has the landmass to support sufficient food production, a truly scary % of the whole of the UKs fresh water supply, produces more power from wind than it can use (before we even think about Hydro, Biomass, Nuclear or fossil fuel) and billions in untapped black gold reserves. Population does not a country make.

As an independent nation, Scotland would be around the 115th most populous in the world. Next to Denmark, Finland, Slovakia, Norway, New Zealand and a divided RoI. No one is suggesting these countries can’t be independent or support themselves and none of them (bar our siblings Norway) have the same level of natural resources that we do.
December Dong
"We would be damaging the fabric of the Union with regulatory checks and even customs controls between Great Britain and Northern Ireland on top of those extra regulatory checks down the Irish Sea that are already envisaged in the withdrawal agreement"

Who said that? Someone remind me. Vidcapper, can you remember?

And no way is a brexshitter here defending COMPROMISE after screaming 52% is enough for a hard brexshit!! Lord irony just sweeps over their heads.
Santa Klaus
So less than 5% of the deal has been renegotiated but, if it passes, of course we know who gets all the glory
blacksquare
QUOTE(Klaus @ Oct 18 2019, 12:52 PM) *
So less than 5% of the deal has been renegotiated but, if it passes, of course we know who gets all the glory


Not quite a renegotiation either — he just said yes to what Theresa May had already turned down. But she was the weak one.



December Dong
And yet people like common sense are falling over themselves to praise him rotf.gif He is easily the weakest prime minister we've ever had. Churchill? Pfft. He's one out. He's a Chamberlain, but much worse and far far more corrupt.
JingleBellJüpes
Hes a man and if he's shitty so what. He validates people who are shitty.

He's the pinnacle of low effort winning and that's the kind of people he validates. Harsh but true.
Brett-Butler
FT is suggesting that the deal might just get over the line.



Will have to see if Labour imposes a 3-line whip to stop its northern MPs supporting the deal. It would be win/win-win for Corbyn if that's the case - if the deal fails, he'll get the credit. If it passes, then he gets to kick out those less loyal to him, plus he gets UK out of the EU, which we all know he secretly supports.
December Dong
I just don't understand why they are supportong a worse deal just necause it's presented by an authoritarian man! rotf.gif Any Labou4 mp that votes for it needs to be kicked out immediately.

So say this failure of a surrender deal passes. Could Bojo then say other negotiations down the line have failed and default on a no deal, which is what his backers want?
Brett-Butler
I've been saying it since before the referendum and occasionally since then - people are not as rational as they believe themselves to be, and it doesn't take much to nudge someone in your direction. And if you think that you're completely free of irrational decision making, then you are a liar. I know I'm prone to it.
Doctor Blind
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 18 2019, 02:23 PM) *
FT is suggesting that the deal might just get over the line.


Of course the banter if it gets over the line by 1 vote will be that Norman Lamb, a Liberal Democrat, effectively provided that 1 vote.

Good luck Jo Swinson selling that on the doorstep. biggrin.gif
Envoirment
How many of the independent conservatives are going to support the deal though? I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few abstains. From what I understand those labour members who have said they will vote for the deal are coming under pressure from the party to abstain instead. The vote tomorrow is going to be very interesting.

Hopefully a second referendum amendment will be attached to it.
December Dong
Exactly. I seriously doubt all of them will vote for the deal after being PURGED rotf.gif Add a few of them to no, plus some Labour abstentions as they don't want to be barred from ever standing again, and there you have it. The best bet is this v remain in a confirmatory referendum.

That email from that clueless Labour mp above is just rotf.gif There were no plans for brexshit, and so a confirmatory referendum to check the deal IS what some people voted for, is 100% a necessity in a democracy. This is especially true because the little that WAS offered, a Norway deal, is not this.
Suedehead2
QUOTE(Brett-Butler @ Oct 18 2019, 02:23 PM) *
FT is suggesting that the deal might just get over the line.



Will have to see if Labour imposes a 3-line whip to stop its northern MPs supporting the deal. It would be win/win-win for Corbyn if that's the case - if the deal fails, he'll get the credit. If it passes, then he gets to kick out those less loyal to him, plus he gets UK out of the EU, which we all know he secretly supports.

She is wrong in her first paragraph, and that's without commenting on the missing apostrophe. Her duty is to act in the interests of her constituents. That is not the same as representing their views. If MPs were mere delegates, there wouldn't be much point on having them.
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