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 University course funding |
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 Oct 29 2019, 08:22 AM
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#1
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 Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364 
 
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Should the government subsidise university courses that are more likely to lead to well-paying work?
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Oct 29 2019, 10:56 PM
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#2
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 Jacob Alan~
Joined: 12 March 2015
Posts: 4,981 User: 21,664
  
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All courses should be funded. Education up to 18 is funded. University used to be much better supported.
How do you quantify what's valuable anyway? Different degrees lead to different "high paying work" in different industries, all positions that need to be filled, and honours degrees have loads of general transferable academic skills allowing for general graduate jobs to spring up. I suppose what you're implying means that STEM subjects get a free pass, the arts and humanities are yet again overlooked and people without a natural aptitude for STEM subjects and more of an interest in others are pushed towards STEM through financial incentive. There's then a saturation of graduates in said industries and more money is wasted when drop outs inevitably increase in those subjects. |
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Oct 29 2019, 11:15 PM
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#3
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 The owls are not what they seem
Pronouns: He/him
Joined: 11 July 2009 Posts: 37,102 User: 9,232
        
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All university courses as a minimum teach key transferrable skills and develop experience that are suitable for most jobs out there and that includes arts and humanities subjects, even if it isn't related to what you study, it can still put you on the right pathway, my job isn't really related but I wouldn't have got it without my university qualifications, that's for sure. There is no reason we should be elitist about it. Yes, I have definitely seen courses that are pretty unrealistic and narrow in scope of a career, but we shouldn't berate those that choose this, as where else is an 18 year old with no experience going to go?
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Oct 29 2019, 11:22 PM
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#4
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 Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
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Education should be based on your ability to learn not your ability to pay. As much as I may seriously side eye people at Napier doing a degree in tourism or people on that Harry Potter studies course, education is a valuable thing and any opportunity to support people bettering themselves should be encouraged.
Thankfully, I grew up in a country where the government shares this view and I didn’t pay any fees to go to Uni. I’m the first person in my family, from either branch of it to graduate from University. I wouldn’t have been able to afford to go without the support of the Scottish Government of both Lib/Lab and SNP varieties. |
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Oct 29 2019, 11:33 PM
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#5
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 I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,407 User: 12,929            
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Rather, the solution should be to discourage employment positions from requiring a university degree and encourage vocational courses if we're going to try and solve the problem of degree inflation. And remove fees, all it is right now is a social mobility tax and a financial crash waiting to happen, and not one that other countries have signed up for.
And yes, non-STEM can be incredibly valuable. Depends on instituition but I believe I read a study that humanities graduates are more likely to be strong in qualities that employers in general favour, critical thinking, creativity, persuasion, people management. Evaluation based on certain university courses is wrong, as studying any subject at a high level gives you different skills depending on the course's requirements. and indeed, the really important thing about university is that you are learning. It should be an opportunity available to all, to make the population better educated. |
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Oct 30 2019, 06:17 AM
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#6
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Veles Shadow @ Oct 29 2019, 10:56 PM)  All courses should be funded. Education up to 18 is funded. University used to be much better supported. How do you quantify what's valuable anyway? Different degrees lead to different "high paying work" in different industries, all positions that need to be filled, and honours degrees have loads of general transferable academic skills allowing for general graduate jobs to spring up. Oh really - how many say, 'Philosopher wanted' job ads have you seen?  Computers, Business Studies, the Sciences, Medicine - that's where the jobs are! |
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Oct 30 2019, 09:11 AM
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#7
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 there's nothing straight about plump Elvis
Pronouns: they/any
Joined: 21 January 2016 Posts: 13,130 User: 22,895 
   
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If anything I feel kinda the opposite. Social science students whose courses cost maybe a grand p/a to run shouldn't be subsidising STEM students who will go on to make much higher salaries over the course of their working lives, and from the off too.
But as usual in this discussion there's a lot of conflation between uni courses that qualify one for A specific career and courses which give the skills to go down multiple paths. Something like sociology or philosophy levels up your information gathering & critical thinking skills above most e.g. STEM courses which one can then take forward to report writing and analysing, sales negotiations, diplomacy, company policy writing and all sorts of similar practical applications. Again to use myself as an example I work in finance but was specifically hired because of my humanities and arts background because this role was known to involve a lot of presenting, internal sales and training of others - aspects of work which many of my colleagues from a pure maths/IT background have never had to hone and as a result are less proficient in, which slows down the business overall. |
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Oct 30 2019, 12:05 PM
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#8
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 1 June 2013
Posts: 527 User: 19,091
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 06:17 AM) Oh really - how many say, 'Philosopher wanted' job ads have you seen? Computers, Business Studies, the Sciences, Medicine - that's where the jobs are! You really look at things in an over simplistic way. |
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Oct 30 2019, 01:53 PM
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#9
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(mald487 @ Oct 30 2019, 12:05 PM) You really look at things in an over simplistic way. I find broad statements help me to better cover the bases... 
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Oct 30 2019, 02:40 PM
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#10
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Jacob Alan~
Joined: 12 March 2015
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No, they just ignore the nuance and make you sound ignorant.
QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 06:17 AM) Oh really - how many say, 'Philosopher wanted' job ads have you seen? I studied Popular Music at university with an emphasis on music technology and marketing. It's a booming industry and as a recent graduate I've recently been picking up several interviews in said industry. But I suppose to you I've wasted my time because it's a degree in the arts. Ironic, considering your interest in the charts but I digress. Computers, Business Studies, the Sciences, Medicine - that's where the jobs are! Why isn't Philosophy valuable to you anyway? The amount of critical thinking skills, writing skills and historical knowledge you'd gain would make a philosophy graduate eligible for a whole host of positions, particularly in academic, political or journalistic sectors. Just because the job position and career label isn't always exactly the same as the degree it doesn't mean that the skills aren't transferable or useful. All degrees require independent research, academic writing and critical thinking, and all honours degrees (so, pretty much all undergraduate degrees) require a dissertation. People have to study what they're interested in, or they won't do well on their degree and it follows that they won't do well in their career if they're not interested in that either. Of course there are some degrees that make you go "why??" when it's tourism or whatever like Silas says but even they will usually have those transferable skills. Which degree did you get anyway vid, or are you one of those illustrious "University of Life" graduates? |
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Oct 30 2019, 02:50 PM
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#11
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(Veles Shadow @ Oct 30 2019, 02:40 PM) Which degree did you get anyway vid, or are you one of those illustrious "University of Life" graduates? I went to college, rather than Uni, as back in the 'dark ages' university was far less of an option. |
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Oct 30 2019, 02:50 PM
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#12
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I'm a paragon so don't perceive me
Joined: 3 February 2011
Posts: 37,407 User: 12,929
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Taking a 'plug and play' approach to degrees into jobs is very simplistic indeed. You will often find people go into graduate jobs unrelated to their degree, as in some industries, maybe the technical content of the job is such that it can be trained without the need for three years of further study in the subject, while the soft skills and other advantages gained from studying any rigorous degree for so long are much more valuable. Jupiter's post above is a brilliant example.
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Oct 30 2019, 02:55 PM
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#13
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,064 User: 3,474
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I can firmly second Jupiters post. I work in a big 4 accounting firm and most of our graduate intake didn’t actually study accounting at University. We take any degree. You’ve demonstrated valuable skills in completing that degree and it is those skills as well as your personal skills that make you valuable to us. We can teach you tax or audit or consulting etc but we can’t teach you critical thinking, research skills and much more.
Pretty much the only exception is Actuarial where you need a really narrow set of degrees because of the complexity of work involved |
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Oct 30 2019, 04:40 PM
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#14
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 1 June 2013
Posts: 527 User: 19,091
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 01:53 PM) I find broad statements help me to better cover the bases... Yep..Broad, sweeping, often incorrect statements. |
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Oct 30 2019, 04:42 PM
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#15
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BuzzJack Enthusiast
Joined: 1 June 2013
Posts: 527 User: 19,091
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QUOTE(Veles Shadow @ Oct 30 2019, 02:40 PM) No, they just ignore the nuance and make you sound ignorant.I studied Popular Music at university with an emphasis on music technology and marketing. It's a booming industry and as a recent graduate I've recently been picking up several interviews in said industry. But I suppose to you I've wasted my time because it's a degree in the arts. Ironic, considering your interest in the charts but I digress. Why isn't Philosophy valuable to you anyway? The amount of critical thinking skills, writing skills and historical knowledge you'd gain would make a philosophy graduate eligible for a whole host of positions, particularly in academic, political or journalistic sectors. Just because the job position and career label isn't always exactly the same as the degree it doesn't mean that the skills aren't transferable or useful. All degrees require independent research, academic writing and critical thinking, and all honours degrees (so, pretty much all undergraduate degrees) require a dissertation. People have to study what they're interested in, or they won't do well on their degree and it follows that they won't do well in their career if they're not interested in that either. Of course there are some degrees that make you go "why??" when it's tourism or whatever like Silas says but even they will usually have those transferable skills. Which degree did you get anyway vid, or are you one of those illustrious "University of Life" graduates? Thank you. You've put this far more eloquently than I could have. |
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Oct 30 2019, 05:15 PM
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#16
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Jacob Alan~
Joined: 12 March 2015
Posts: 4,981 User: 21,664
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 30 2019, 02:50 PM) I went to college, rather than Uni, as back in the 'dark ages' university was far less of an option. I mean that’s fair enough that you didn’t go, not everyone has to, and certainly it’s more common to go these days. But you are talking about things you clearly only have a limited knowledge of, seeing as you have no experience in the education system you’re assigning varying levels of value to.I’m sure you’ve just been reading the news talking specifically about the value of STEM and it’s “common sense” that people should chase areas where there are seemingly more high paying jobs (though a saturation of workers will bring that value down) but there are so many industries for so many different lines of work, all valuable. The music industry is a huge part of lots of people’s lives, this website is based around it, politics are very relevant to everyone and where would we be without literature and history? Society can’t progress only in one area, even science often progresses through imagination and creative thought- science inspires art and art inspires science. |
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Oct 31 2019, 05:15 AM
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#17
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 30 2019, 02:55 PM) Pretty much the only exception is Actuarial where you need a really narrow set of degrees because of the complexity of work involved Doesn't that apply to the Law, too? |
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Oct 31 2019, 09:09 AM
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#18
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,064 User: 3,474
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QUOTE(vidcapper @ Oct 31 2019, 05:15 AM) Doesn't that apply to the Law, too? Nope, 2:1 in any degree discipline is our firms entry requirements for legal. Sure a law degree probably helps in the same way an accounting degree helps if you come in one of our core streams but it’s not a requirement and quite a number of our graduate and apprenticeship intake have no education background in accounting |
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Oct 31 2019, 09:24 AM
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#19
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Paul Hyett
Joined: 4 April 2006
Posts: 25,346 User: 364
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QUOTE(5 Silas Frøkner @ Oct 31 2019, 09:09 AM) Nope, 2:1 in any degree discipline is our firms entry requirements for legal. Sure a law degree probably helps in the same way an accounting degree helps if you come in one of our core streams but it’s not a requirement and quite a number of our graduate and apprenticeship intake have no education background in accounting Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I'd prefer to hire someone with relevant experience, rather than a degree in an unrelated subject. |
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Oct 31 2019, 10:43 AM
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#20
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Queen of Soon
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 74,064 User: 3,474
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They’ve no work experience and at that level the little experience they have is irrelevant. I can teach someone basic accounting skills. I can’t teach them attitude and research skills and other things that university provides
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