there ARE as much (in ratio to Islam and Christianity) Athiests, Satanists etc, who would also be against gay marriage.

 

The vast majority of Atheists went to church/bible class once upon a time though Kath.... I did, not through choice, through parents taking me, I had no say in it... Some forms of conditioning can still exist, regardless of whether or not you get away from the controlling influence... Atheists who are bigoted would say "Homosexuality is unnatural"... They say that, but dont really know WHY they're saying it, they'll just shrug and reply "just is, that's all...". At the end of the day, there really is no such thing as a nation which is purely "atheist" or "agnostic", where people are completely away 100% from the influence of religion... Even Stalinist Russia wasn't totally atheist, but then there it was really just a replacement of one controlling cult (Russian Orthodoxy) with another (Stalinism)...

 

And, er 'Satanism'...? Just another religion Kath, haven't you heard of Anton La Vey and the "Church of Satan".....? :rolleyes:

 

my worry is that as islam spreads, through immigration and natural 'recruitment', the muslim ideologies will become more mainstream in world politics. the conflict for me is that whilst in a democratic world proportional reprisentation would be the right way to go, undeveloped, backward, ways of thinking will be more prevailant thus creating more conflict for 'minority' groups based on sex, sexuality and religion.

 

And, why, exactly is this just a concern where Islam is concerned....? You dont think just as much (if not more) damage has been caused to Africa by the fukkin' Catholic Church...??? Imperialists went out there, they didn't "recruit", they basically IMPOSED, massacring whole tribes who didn't comply.... <_< Look at Jacob Zuma, for example, a total and utter fukkin' Jesus Freak, actually believing that he has some sort of "divine right" to rule, a rapist and all-round fukkin' scumbag; is he "better" or worse than this bloke, I know what I think, at least this guy (twat that he is) hasn't raped anyone.... In CHRISTIAN African countries gangs go around RAPING lesbians to turn them "straight", and this is done almost with some kind of unspoken official sanction.. As are the attacks and murders carried out on gay men in Jamaica, not exactly an ISLAMIC country either.....

 

I really object to all this negative focus on one religion in particular, when, in reality, they're all as historically guilty as each other of oppression of women/gays/etc.... The Catholic influence in Africa has been totally and utterly corrosive upon the people of that continent... Even worse, I would argue, than Islam, just look at the rampant spread of AIDS because of the Catholic church's refusal to endorse birth control.... And WE Europeans, imported it...... <_<

And, why, exactly is this just a concern where Islam is concerned....? You dont think just as much (if not more) damage has been caused to Africa by the fukkin' Catholic Church...??? Imperialists went out there, they didn't "recruit", they basically IMPOSED, massacring whole tribes who didn't comply.... <_< Look at Jacob Zuma, for example, a total and utter fukkin' Jesus Freak, actually believing that he has some sort of "divine right" to rule, a rapist and all-round fukkin' scumbag; is he "better" or worse than this bloke, I know what I think, at least this guy (twat that he is) hasn't raped anyone.... In CHRISTIAN African countries gangs go around RAPING lesbians to turn them "straight", and this is done almost with some kind of unspoken official sanction.. As are the attacks and murders carried out on gay men in Jamaica, not exactly an ISLAMIC country either.....

 

I really object to all this negative focus on one religion in particular, when, in reality, they're all as historically guilty as each other of oppression of women/gays/etc.... The Catholic influence in Africa has been totally and utterly corrosive upon the people of that continent... Even worse, I would argue, than Islam, just look at the rampant spread of AIDS because of the Catholic church's refusal to endorse birth control.... And WE Europeans, imported it...... <_<

 

.... because islam is proving to be staunch and unmoving in its position on homosexuality, sex, race, UNLIKE the christian church who now have large sections of it accepting homosexuality and equality for both sex and race. like it or not the united nations is largely based on a christian doctrine. historically yes, all religions are guilty of atrocities, but we are talking about NOW. its whats happening NOW that matters... the rise in islam IS imho a POTENTIAL scource of further conflict over matters that the christian/catholic churches abandined years ago.

 

do you really think that if the united nations was run upon muslim doctrine that women, gay people and non believers would get a fair deal? :lol:

.... because islam is proving to be staunch and unmoving in its position on homosexuality, sex, race, UNLIKE the christian church who now have large sections of it accepting homosexuality and equality for both sex and race. like it or not the united nations is largely based on a christian doctrine. historically yes, all religions are guilty of atrocities, but we are talking about NOW. its whats happening NOW that matters... the rise in islam IS imho a POTENTIAL scource of further conflict over matters that the christian/catholic churches abandined years ago.

 

do you really think that if the united nations was run upon muslim doctrine that women, gay people and non believers would get a fair deal? :lol:

 

What a load of old pony Rob..... THe UN is NOT supposed to favour one Nation or one Creed over another, you know, it's called the UNITED Nations for an actual reason..... And, if it IS, then it needs to be utterly dismantled IMO, and built up again from scratch to take into account and fairly and equally represent ALL races, creeds, beliefs, etc....

 

And, what the hell are you talking about.... Did you just entirely MISS my point about AIDS ravaging Africa in THIS DAY AND AGE because of the bloody Catholic Church's totally staunch and unmoving position on BIRTH CONTROL.......? Millions of people are dying of AIDS in Africa NOW!!!!! -_- You seem to read my posts with a selective eye Rob..... Or did I just miss the Papal edict saying "hey guys, Johnnies and The Pill are okay....."?

 

The conflict between Islam and Christianity has been largely manufactured..... It's another "war" for the US Military/Industrial complex after the fall of Communism, people in the previous US administration have made BILLIONS off the war in Iraq and Afghanistan through their interests in corporations like Haliburton and Lockheed Martin..... That, in my view, is absolutely amoral, that is basically corruption of the highest level that would make Berlusconi or Putin blush....

What a load of old pony Rob..... THe UN is NOT supposed to favour one Nation or one Creed over another, you know, it's called the UNITED Nations for an actual reason..... And, if it IS, then it needs to be utterly dismantled IMO, and built up again from scratch to take into account and fairly and equally represent ALL races, creeds, beliefs, etc....

 

And, what the hell are you talking about.... Did you just entirely MISS my point about AIDS ravaging Africa in THIS DAY AND AGE because of the bloody Catholic Church's totally staunch and unmoving position on BIRTH CONTROL.......? Millions of people are dying of AIDS in Africa NOW!!!!! -_- You seem to read my posts with a selective eye Rob..... Or did I just miss the Papal edict saying "hey guys, Johnnies and The Pill are okay....."?

 

The conflict between Islam and Christianity has been largely manufactured..... It's another "war" for the US Military/Industrial complex after the fall of Communism, people in the previous US administration have made BILLIONS off the war in Iraq and Afghanistan through their interests in corporations like Haliburton and Lockheed Martin..... That, in my view, is absolutely amoral, that is basically corruption of the highest level that would make Berlusconi or Putin blush....

 

no i didnt miss your point, perhaps you should have read mine about it being history, what matters is whats happening now and in the future... it matters NOT what the christian/catholic or indeed any religion did in the past, that cannot be altered. what matters is the future, and a predominance in any large organisation be it the UN or the european community of an intransigent , staunch religion does NOT bode well for the minority groups you are all to eagre to defend.... (quite rightly too)

 

answer MY point, a dominant islamic force will not tollerate homosexuality or equality as we know it.

 

manufactured?.... lol... the crusades anyone? :lol: the conflict between islam and christianity is as old as the hills...

no i didnt miss your point, perhaps you should have read mine about it being history, what matters is whats happening now and in the future... it matters NOT what the christian/catholic or indeed any religion did in the past, that cannot be altered. what matters is the future, and a predominance in any large organisation be it the UN or the european community of an intransigent , staunch religion does NOT bode well for the minority groups you are all to eagre to defend.... (quite rightly too)

 

answer MY point, a dominant islamic force will not tollerate homosexuality or equality as we know it.

 

manufactured?.... lol... the crusades anyone? :lol: the conflict between islam and christianity is as old as the hills...

 

 

In the modern context, it's completely manufactured..... There was no reason for us to be involved in Kuwait in 1990, another example of us being led like sheep by the bloody Yanks.... This one action is what directly led to the formation of Al Qaeda and all the sh!t that has resulted since then, because we didn't let local forces sort out a local dispute.... Bin Laden himself actually offered to take the Mujahadeen into Kuwait to drive out Iraqi forces.... Frankly, we should have just let HIM deal with Saddam, would have saved us a hell of a lot of trouble really, especially if the assault had failed and Bin Laden had been captured or killed by Saddam.... All the troubles since then have been as a direct result of US interference in the Middle East, particularly Palestine, another very important factor which needs special consideration...

 

There is no "dominant" Islamic force anyway, so it's a rather moot point... And, frankly, I dont believe it would actually be any worse than a dominant Fundamentalist Christian force..... They're both as bad as each other.... Whatever reforms or changes have occured within our society over the past 50 or 60 years has happened in spite of Christianity, not because of it....

 

And, I repeat the point AGAIN, because you appear to still be totally missing it... People dying TODAY, THIS FUKKIN' MINUTE AS I AM TYPING THIS, IN AFRICA, MILLIONS ARE DYING OF AIDS/HIV... THIS IS NOT BLOODY "HISTORY"...... <_< It's here, now, in the 21st Century , not some time in he dim and distant past, and therefore TOTALLY RELEVANT....... And, they are dying as a DIRECT CAUSAL RESULT of the continuing (as in "still going on") refusal of THIS Pope (as in the one who's in charge of the Vatican now in 2009) to allow Birth Control..... AIDS in Africa is an ONGOING problem, not a HISTORICAL one.... Jesus....... :rolleyes:

 

And, if you honestly dont believe that historical events in Africa dont continue to haunt and affect that continent even to this day, then you clearly have NEVER talked to an African person in your life.... I suggest you actually do, and stop being so bloody ignorant of the legacy and impact of hundreds of years of Imperialism and Colonialism that still dogs things even to this day.... Do you honestly believe that that the impact of hundreds of years of European Imperialism can somehow be reversed in a few decades....? Are you really that stupid....?

And, I repeat the point AGAIN, because you appear to still be totally missing it... People dying TODAY, THIS FUKKIN' MINUTE AS I AM TYPING THIS, IN AFRICA, MILLIONS ARE DYING OF AIDS/HIV... THIS IS NOT BLOODY "HISTORY"...... <_< It's here, now, in the 21st Century , not some time in he dim and distant past, and therefore TOTALLY RELEVANT....... And, they are dying as a DIRECT CAUSAL RESULT of the continuing (as in "still going on") refusal of THIS Pope (as in the one who's in charge of the Vatican now in 2009) to allow Birth Control..... AIDS in Africa is an ONGOING problem, not a HISTORICAL one.... Jesus....... :rolleyes:

 

And, if you honestly dont believe that historical events in Africa dont continue to haunt and affect that continent even to this day, then you clearly have NEVER talked to an African person in your life.... I suggest you actually do, and stop being so bloody ignorant of the legacy and impact of hundreds of years of Imperialism and Colonialism that still dogs things even to this day.... Do you honestly believe that that the impact of hundreds of years of European Imperialism can somehow be reversed in a few decades....? Are you really that stupid....?

 

im not missing the point, im IGNORING it, because as usual your defence is based on 'ooh look at what the naughty west has done', and not on the main point i raised about the danger of a POSSIBLE rise in fundamentalist islam in running the major world organisations... they are 2 totally different points.

 

sometimes i just dont get you, the first to champion minorities rights, but here you are seemingly defending an organisation that COULD, POSSIBLY, if in power, clamp down on the very people you are quick to defend.. :wacko:

im not missing the point, im IGNORING it, because as usual your defence is based on 'ooh look at what the naughty west has done', and not on the main point i raised about the danger of a POSSIBLE rise in fundamentalist islam in running the major world organisations... they are 2 totally different points.

 

sometimes i just dont get you, the first to champion minorities rights, but here you are seemingly defending an organisation that COULD, POSSIBLY, if in power, clamp down on the very people you are quick to defend.. :wacko:

 

They're not two different points at all.... I'm pointing out the FACT that Catholicism continues to cause harm in the world through its intransigent views, JUST like certain sections of Islam.... I'm not defending this guy or his views at all, I'm just not as ready as YOU are to jump on the "anti-Muslim" bandwagon at every opportunity and make out like the Muslims are the "big, bad bogeymen" in the world.... Because, believe it or not, very few Muslims overall really give a sh!t what loudmouths like this guy and Ahmadinejad say, just like MOST Irish Catholics overall were actually opposed to what the IRA were doing.... Talk to an Asian Muslim, say, about the Libyans, Saudis or Iranians, and you'll get people descibing them as "those crazy Arabs...".

 

It's nowhere near as simplistic as you seem to think it is.... What do you think would happen if someone like Jacob Zuma (a devout Christian) got into this position in the UN, do you think HE'D have particulary nice things to say about gay people....? And would such a fukkin' big deal be made out of it....? Of course not, Zuma's not a MUSLIM is he.....? :rolleyes:

 

Do you actually think that somehow Fundamentalist Christianity isn't actually a big threat on the horizon....? You think that just because they're all a bit quieter and don't make as big a noise anymore that they're not very quietly and stealthily managing to worm their way into positions of influence and power....? Er, I refer you to the Pentechostals who had the ear of Dubya during his reign...... In America, the separation of Church and State only exists on paper, dont kid yourself that those in power dont listen to these types of people and aren't influenced.... What do you suppose made Bush stand in such opposition to gay marriage in the US, actually pretty much putting pressure on Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to overturn a policy on Gay Marriage in California which he was perfectly okay with....

I've been reading over this guy's statements again... Well, frankly, Rob, they are nowhere NEAR as inflammatory or hate-fuelled as speeches that Nick Griffin has made against immigrants. Muslims and gays.... Not even close.... You seem perfectly okay to defend HIS rights to free speech and legitimacy, and yet, here you are with your usual "anti-Muslim" band-wagon jumping... I DISAGREE with this guy, and would argue with him almost certainly.... Griffin on the other hand, is a thug and a very clear hate-monger who is out to stir up hatred of ethnic minorities and actually get them hurt or killed, and as such, he should be sharing a cell with his brother-in-hatred Abu Hamza... I detect no actual "hate" in this guy's statement, merely a view that I personally dont agree with..... It's a much more calm and measured statement in comparison to the sort of absolute filth the BNP come up with.....