protest against the war? go to whitehall then..

 

Yeah, where you get arrested by the pigs for marching on Parliament square - PUBLIC LAND by the way..... <_<

 

Or maybe the Cenotaph, the WAR MEMORIAL.......?? Nah, cant do that either, a young woman got nicked for holding a lone, candle-lit VIGIL there for the victims of the war...... <_<

 

Or perhaps you could be like this guy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Haw

 

NOT an extremist... NOT a Muslim... But the powers-that-be, stopping just short of actually declaring him a "terrorist" or a "threat to national security", sure as hell did their damndest to silence HIM...... :angry: :angry:

Actually, he's spot on here...

 

Not to mention the fact that we're propping up a regime in Afghanistan at the moment who are scarcely any better than the fukkin' Taliban..... <_<

 

"Liberty and Justice For All", eh....? God what a fukkin' mess we've made.... And I still say that people.... ALL people have a right to have a voice to oppose this mess we've created.....

 

Banning "Islam4UK" from having perfectly legit Anti-War demos and allowing the BNP to go unhindered in their campaign of hatred is a supreme act of hypocrisy in my book....

 

... if the bnp OFFICIALLY held such views then they WOULD be banned, here we go again, you are writing the bnp's manifesto for them <_< , just because historically they have been overtly racist and they still attract racists within their ranks you are crediting the party with the views of some of the membership ..... isnt that exactly the same as brandishing ALL muslims as 'terrorists'?

 

 

And when did the Pope actually make a pronouncement of this nature against the IRA Russ....?? Were the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin MacGuinnes ex-communicated???? Not that I noticed..... And did the General Synod ever say anything specific about the UVF, UDA, etc......????

 

thats over 30 fcukin years ago!!!!! a totally different subject that if were relevant today WOULD get condemnation if the pope didnt step in... its now 2010, the subject is muslim terrorists, if the ordinary muslims were/are as repelled by the actions of the minority as they claim, why are they not vocally saying so? or do most ordinary muslims actually support the actions of the minority?

 

 

You, Rich and Rob talk about this whole sh"t as if this was the first time there have been seriously ugly (and justified) protests against an unjustified war, I suggest you look up the Anti-Vietnam protests sometime..... This is Kindergarten stuff compared to some of those where you had SERIOUS riots going on.....

 

they have as much right to protest at wooton basset as the bnp do outside the central mosque.... YOU would be the first to mount your pc white horse and wade in heroically waving your sword of justice in support of the poor downtrodden muslims if there ever was such a protest march (and im not saying youd be wrong). yes protest against the war (but where exactly where islam4uk when the protests were going on)?? <_< but to do it at wooton basset is tantamount to treason, its completely insulting the country THEY CHOSE to make 'home'..

 

thats over 30 fcukin years ago!!!!! a totally different subject that if were relevant today WOULD get condemnation if the pope didnt step in... its now 2010, the subject is muslim terrorists, if the ordinary muslims were/are as repelled by the actions of the minority as they claim, why are they not vocally saying so? or do most ordinary muslims actually support the actions of the minority?

they have as much right to protest at wooton basset as the bnp do outside the central mosque.... YOU would be the first to mount your pc white horse and wade in heroically waving your sword of justice in support of the poor downtrodden muslims if there ever was such a protest march (and im not saying youd be wrong). yes protest against the war (but where exactly where islam4uk when the protests were going on)?? <_< but to do it at wooton basset is tantamount to treason, its completely insulting the country THEY CHOSE to make 'home'..

 

Well, considering the organisation formed out of the ashes of Al Moujharoun, they didn't actually exist in 2003.... However, I DID see many Muslim orgs on Anti-War demos and marches.... And, since when was the Armed Forces considered an "ethnic" or "cultural" minority in this country FFS...?? Here was me thinking that the Armed Forces was actually a PROFESSION like the Police or being a Politician....... -_- So, sorry mate, if we have protests outside police stations against Police brutality, or protests outside, say, the Chinese embassy against oppression in Tibet, etc, then I dont see why the fukk we should give the bloody Army any kind of special consideration..... Fukk that sh!t.... Wooton Bassett isn't some kind of religious or "sacred" place like the bloody Vatican FFS, and frankly, I would support the rights of gays or pro-choicers to march on the bloody POPE to be honest!!! It's not exactly an illegal military occupation we're talking here (that would be Iraq mate..), it's a PROTEST AGAINST THE WAR, get some fukkin' perspective Rob, and get real, TREASON??? WTF are you gibbering about???? You'd may as well use the term "blasphemy" for all the sense you're making right now -_- Th real "traitors" to this country are the ones who sold us out to the American Nu Imperialism.....

 

And you miss the point I'm making about the IRA entirely, the Pope at the time when the IRA was IN existence didn't exactly issue any edicts condemning the IRA, Nah, he was too busy excommunicating "Socialist" Priests in Central America who objected to the oppression of the military juntas upon the people of El Salvador and Honduras and saying that homosexuality was "evil"..... <_<

... if the bnp OFFICIALLY held such views then they WOULD be banned, here we go again, you are writing the bnp's manifesto for them <_< , just because historically they have been overtly racist and they still attract racists within their ranks you are crediting the party with the views of some of the membership

 

Some??? Try the vast majority..... I've never met a BNP/NF member or supporter who didn't hold some kind of bigoted or racist view.... And well, let's face it, SOMEONE has to write the BNP "manifesto", they're not exactly doing a good job of coming up with one that makes any kind of sense (except to RACISTS AND BIGOTS that is), our very own Tyron did an absolutely astounding demolition job of their so-called "manifeto" on this very forum some time ago, and they call themselves a "Political Party" :lol: :lol:, that's just the biggest joke of all really.... They make UKIP look respectable....

 

And you've clearly never even heard the speeches of Nick Griffin have you...? The man is 100% IGNORANT of the history and culture of this country that he claims to be defending (did you just totally miss his laughable "performance" on Question Time where he had to be given a lesson in BRITISH history from an African-American lady??? :lol: )..... He calls himself a "British" Nationalist, when it's clearly very obvious the man's only interest lies within the borders of England, his party means NOTHING to the Scots, Welsh and Irish who have their own, infinitely more reasonable and certainly more balanced Nationalist parties in terms of manifesto and policy..... He's a "nationalist" in the sense that Milosevic and Hitler were - ie, a tyrant in the making, Thomas Rainsborough he aint.....

Well, considering the organisation formed out of the ashes of Al Moujharoun, they didn't actually exist in 2003.... However, I DID see many Muslim orgs on Anti-War demos and marches.... And, since when was the Armed Forces considered an "ethnic" or "cultural" minority in this country FFS...?? Here was me thinking that the Armed Forces was actually a PROFESSION like the Police or being a Politician....... -_- So, sorry mate, if we have protests outside police stations against Police brutality, or protests outside, say, the Chinese embassy against oppression in Tibet, etc, then I dont see why the fukk we should give the bloody Army any kind of special consideration..... Fukk that sh!t.... Wooton Bassett isn't some kind of religious or "sacred" place like the bloody Vatican FFS, and frankly, I would support the rights of gays or pro-choicers to march on the bloody POPE to be honest!!! It's not exactly an illegal military occupation we're talking here (that would be Iraq mate..), it's a PROTEST AGAINST THE WAR, get some fukkin' perspective Rob, and get real, TREASON??? WTF are you gibbering about???? You'd may as well use the term "blasphemy" for all the sense you're making right now -_- Th real "traitors" to this country are the ones who sold us out to the American Nu Imperialism.....

 

And you miss the point I'm making about the IRA entirely, the Pope at the time when the IRA was IN existence didn't exactly issue any edicts condemning the IRA, Nah, he was too busy excommunicating "Socialist" Priests in Central America who objected to the oppression of the military juntas upon the people of El Salvador and Honduras and saying that homosexuality was "evil"..... <_<

 

nope... they chose wooton basset because thats where our dead were brought home, they chose wb as a deliberate spit in the face of the dead army guys... it was chosen as a deliberate act of did respect.

 

yes they can protest, outside an appropriate building, even the local muslims didnt want them and saw how WRONG it was ffs...

 

would you support the legitimate bnp protesting in a largely muslim area and concentrating on their mosque?.... its EXACTLY the same thing...

 

i dont know of anyone who would support the ira's actions and yes, id certainly back a call for the pope to interviene.

 

nope... they chose wooton basset because thats where our dead were brought home, they chose wb as a deliberate spit in the face of the dead army guys... it was chosen as a deliberate act of did respect.

 

yes they can protest, outside an appropriate building, even the local muslims didnt want them and saw how WRONG it was ffs...

 

would you support the legitimate bnp protesting in a largely muslim area and concentrating on their mosque?.... its EXACTLY the same thing...

 

i dont know of anyone who would support the ira's actions and yes, id certainly back a call for the pope to interviene.

 

Well, again, so what??? As far as I could make out the plans were not for an actual noisy, placard waving protest (which, admittedly would be a bit beyond the pale..) rather is was to stage a mock funeral procession (more than likely in silence and without sloganeering) for victims of the war to make a statement.... Which I feel is both powerful and very dignified tbh.... A row of coffins draped in Iraqi flags with pictures of victims as a symbol of those who died as part of US and UK's illegal war would send a very strong message IMO... WHOEVER does it, and frankly I dont care it it's Muslims, Anarchists or the bloody Women's Institute doing it, the context and nature (as I understood it) of the protest is perfectly legit....

 

The "local Muslims" were probably put under pressure to denounce it...

 

A BNP protest in a Muslim community would take on a very nasty, brutal edge to it, it's nothing like the same thing.. If, say, Stonewall however wanted to demo outside the HQ of the Muslim Council of GB, then of course it would be alright, because Gay Rights marches dont have the same nasty side to them that racist BNP rallies do....

 

In a lot of ways Rob, I personally think the actions of the IRA were understandable given the complex historical contexts involved and the events of "Bloody Sunday" in 1971 (in which British soldiers murdered over a dozen people and wounded many more who were on a Civil Rights march) which were a direct causal effect in the "Troubles" of the 70s and 80s... Sinn Fein should NEVER have been banned IMO, as they were an organisation that existed long before the Provos, and I find it curious that the establishment was quick to silence the voice of dissention or rebellion over Northern Ireland (which actually went beyond banning Sinn Fein, many investigative journalists were unable to report both sides' arguments properly and in a fair, balanced manner because they kept running into Govt "D Notices"), but allow racists and fascists such as the BNP and National Front free rein, seriously I think someone in the establishment is protecting Nick Griffin... Frankly, I see us as having made many of the mistakes we made in the 70s and 80s in regards to this current situation, Iraq is almost certainly akin to "Bloody Sunday" but on a much more massive scale, and now the Sinn Fein-esque banning and/or attempts to silence voices of dissent over the war, not just Al Moujharoun or Islam4UK (not by any means..), but the banning of marches and demos on Parliament Square, the attempts made in the courts to silence Brian Haw's protest, the arrest made on that women at the Cenotaph and the "suicide" of Dr David Kelly...

 

Take all these together and it's pretty clear to me what it all adds up to....

scott... islam4uk are not a party filled with ordinary decent muslims....they are an extremist group whos ONLY motive for chosing wooton basset was to completely disrespect the dead soldiers. i dont think for 1 second it was going to be a dignified and peacefull parade, they are the muslim equivelant of the bnp .. there was ALWAYS going to be trouble if they did that... sorry, but if they hate us that much they should leave our country.

scott... islam4uk are not a party filled with ordinary decent muslims....they are an extremist group whos ONLY motive for chosing wooton basset was to completely disrespect the dead soldiers. i dont think for 1 second it was going to be a dignified and peacefull parade, they are the muslim equivelant of the bnp .. there was ALWAYS going to be trouble if they did that... sorry, but if they hate us that much they should leave our country.

 

People were going to react badly to this no matter who it was doing this protest, I think that much is bloody obvious, it's almost irrelevant that it's Islam4UK tbh, and I really do think it's rather pathetic that they've now been banned simply because they expressed an intent to march (seems mighty coincidental to me that they were suddenly banned after declaring an intention to protest in Wooton Abbot, and I dont buy it's mere coincidence for a second tbh). And I dont buy that they would be "disrespectful" as such, you're making an assumption based on not really much evidence, they'd surely be disrespecting their own dead if the protest was going to be a noisy, aggressive one.... And, as I said before, look at some of the Anti-Vietnam protests where protestors targeted returning soldiers, military parades, military funerals, etc, and rightly so IMO, Vietnam was a totally disgusting, immoral conflict with America basically being an absolute bully to a nation which was no threat to it, much like Iraq....

 

And frankly, I think it's irrelevant if the protestors are foreign or Brit born, the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq completely transcend national borders as do the protests against them, it's a bit like objecting to Vietnamese people protesting in Washington about the 'Nam FFS!!!! It's OUR soldiers under orders from OUR politicians killing THEIR people in an illegal war, personally, I think Muslims have a right to be upset about that and protest about it as they see fit, and if that means upsetting the sensibilities of a few Brits living in Wooton Abbot, then too bad, I think they need to be woken up as to the nature of this continuing conflict and see who the real victims are frankly. I get personally very angry when I see the likes of Simon Cowell and The Scum setting up a fund for soldiers, but do absolutely nothing for the people of Iraq or Afghanistan who have lost loved one to this conflict, the Tabloid Media dont even properly condemn America's absolute shambles of the Post-War "reconstruction" which has seen billions of Iraq's oil wealth being funnelled out by Multinationals....

 

If you close off the avenues of legitimate protest and demos, then what you do is just completely play into the hands of the extremists who can very easily just turn around and say "you see, they ARE hypocrites". Al Qaeda are getting more and more recruits because of mistakes WE and the US continue to make.... It really is just like Ireland in the 70s, only a hell of a lot worse....

 

Frankly, I think the world is fukked if we cant sort this out.... Maybe that's for the best, we all kill each other and let the cockroaches evolve and have a chance at running the show.... -_-

no ones suggesting they ban legilitamte protests ..... the one planned though was clearly a step too far and would have fed anti muslim sentiments resulting in innocent muslims being targeted.

 

the ban was the right thing to do, it has resulted in.... nothing! unlike if it had gone ahead.

 

and if you seriously believe that it was intended as a legitimate, peaceful, protest then you are deluded.

 

as for nam.... theres absolutely no similarity! anti nam protestors were all american, (yes and 'western) ...not vietnamese!

as for nam.... theres absolutely no similarity! anti nam protestors were all american, (yes and 'western) ...not vietnamese!

 

If Vietnamese people had been able to go to the US, they likely would have protested outside the Whithouse lawn about it though, wouldn't they....? Brits also protested about US involvement in South East Asia even though no British soldiers were sent to Vietnam, as did many Continental Europeans, did they have no right to...? Of course they did.... These sorts of conflicts are not about national borders, it's about humanity as a whole and doing the right thing and being against something blatantly wrong....

 

Many political commentators and journalists (who certainly know a thing or two about these things Rob) have actually compared Iraq to Vietnam.... And there are blatant similiarities... The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a LIE, WMDs were a LIE..... That's the first similarity, both conflicts were built upon a LIE.....

 

The ban has resulted in nothing....yet Rob..... -_-

 

 

... and if it had gone ahead, dont you really think it wouldnt have effected ordinary muslims?.. islam4uk are an extremist group... they DONT reprisent 99% of muslims in the uk... its bloody obvious that they were trying to be anti-british and completely disrespect the country they want to call 'home'.. proof? well why didnt they organise a march somewhere else then? of course they wont, they wanted to stick two fingers up the the british people.

 

the day you support an anti-immigration march through an area high in immigrant population then ill agree with you..

from wiki

 

On its website, Islam4UK described itself as having "been established by sincere Muslims as a platform to propagate the supreme Islamic ideology within the United Kingdom as a divine alternative to man-made law" to "convince the British public about the superiority of Islam...thereby changing public opinion in favour of Islam in order to transfer the authority and power...to the Muslims in order to implement the Sharee’ah (here in Britain)".[5][dead link]

 

is THAT what you WANT?

from wiki

 

On its website, Islam4UK described itself as having "been established by sincere Muslims as a platform to propagate the supreme Islamic ideology within the United Kingdom as a divine alternative to man-made law" to "convince the British public about the superiority of Islam...thereby changing public opinion in favour of Islam in order to transfer the authority and power...to the Muslims in order to implement the Sharee’ah (here in Britain)".[5][dead link]

 

is THAT what you WANT?

 

That's not what this argument is about, it's an Anti-War Demo we're talking about here, the other stuff in their "manifesto" or "mission statement" is irrelevant to the actual point in hand, of couse none of that stuff is desirable in the same breath though, none of what the Catholic Church wants is particularly desireable either mate.... And I'll reiterate - I DONT CARE WHO IT IS WHO ORGANISED THE MARCH, be it Muslims, Anarchists, Socialists, Stop the War Coalition or frogs from the Planet Venus, it would STILL be a legit protest because the war is WRONG and it's killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, which IS the point, the ONLY point..... And I dont include soldiers, because they're not "innocents", they made a choice, end of....

 

An Anti-Immigration march through an ethnic neighbourhood is not the same thing, in fact it's the same thing as an Orange Parade down a Catholic street, which is also IMO, wrong.... The Army AINT an ethnic or religious minority, they're an arm of the state, therefore it it is as legitimate to protest against them WHEREVER THEY ARE as it is to protest against the Govt or the Monarchy.... It's very different, and if you dont see that you're a fool.....

 

You want to protest against the Monarchy - You go to where the Monarchy are closely associated - Buckingham Palace, Sandringham, Balmorral, etc

You want to protest against the Govt - You go to where the Govt are closely associated - Westminster

You want to protest against Vivisection/Animal Testing - You go to where that is associated - places such as Huntingdon Life Sciences, etc....

You want to protest against the Military - You go to where they're most closely associated..... Which would be Wooton Abbot or an Army Barracks....

 

Perfectly logical and reasonable mate.... I just do NOT and NEVER WILL agree that the military and where they are associated should be held as sacred cows.....

That's not what this argument is about, it's an Anti-War Demo we're talking about here, the other stuff in their "manifesto" or "mission statement" is irrelevant to the actual point in hand, of couse none of that stuff is desirable in the same breath though, none of what the Catholic Church wants is particularly desireable either mate.... And I'll reiterate - I DONT CARE WHO IT IS WHO ORGANISED THE MARCH, be it Muslims, Anarchists, Socialists, Stop the War Coalition or frogs from the Planet Venus, it would STILL be a legit protest because the war is WRONG and it's killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, which IS the point, the ONLY point..... And I dont include soldiers, because they're not "innocents", they made a choice, end of....

 

An Anti-Immigration march through an ethnic neighbourhood is not the same thing, in fact it's the same thing as an Orange Parade down a Catholic street, which is also IMO, wrong.... The Army AINT an ethnic or religious minority, they're an arm of the state, therefore it it is as legitimate to protest against them WHEREVER THEY ARE as it is to protest against the Govt or the Monarchy.... It's very different, and if you dont see that you're a fool.....

 

oh , so you can pick out the 'good bits' out of THEIR manifesto and support them but REFUSE to accept the fact that some of the bnp's manifesto is also legit! ... <_< .

 

no YOU are the fool if you seriously believe that they were organising a legitimate protest march. it was clearly two fingers up to the 'christian' british whom they hold in contempt.

 

the army ARNT in wooton basset... its a fcukin MARKET TOWN, besides it matters not... they could easily have held a march through westminster, ouside parliament, somewhere official..

 

im tired of this..... you stand ALONE, no one agrees with you, NOT EVEN LOCAL MUSLIMS... the only support for this march at wooton basset was from muslim extremists. if you want to side up with them then thats your choice .

the army ARNT in wooton basset...

 

But they're USING it though.... They're using the place to get sympathetic press for their "cause", as is the Govt... So, I think it's only fair that the balance be redressed, and SOMEONE (not necessarily an Islamic group, it could be ANYONE...) use the place to bring up the issue of innocent victims of war that are being killed..... Why is that such a difficult concept for you to understand....?

oh , so you can pick out the 'good bits' out of THEIR manifesto and support them but REFUSE to accept the fact that some of the bnp's manifesto is also legit! ... <_< .

 

Point to me the "legit" parts of the BNP manifesto that they didn't nick off of UKIP or the Tories past policy statements..... :rolleyes:

 

THEY DONT HAVE ANY IDEAS OF THEIR OWN...... Apart from the offensively racist ones.....

But they're USING it though.... They're using the place to get sympathetic press for their "cause", as is the Govt... So, I think it's only fair that the balance be redressed, and SOMEONE (not necessarily an Islamic group, it could be ANYONE...) use the place to bring up the issue of innocent victims of war that are being killed..... Why is that such a difficult concept for you to understand....?

 

..... the airport is close by, thats all, the people of wooton basset spontaniously started showing their respect and sorrow for these brave young men (of whatever skin colour) that were being reptriated. they died fighting muslim extremists, if you cant understand the absolute WRONG that would be for non local muslim extremists group to carry out such an act of pure intimidation (yes exactly like those ridiculous orange marches in northern ireland) then you are nuts.

 

the facts are that YOU are the only one championing their right to use wooton basset ... says summut doesnt it....

... and ill tell you summut else too... im far more offended by your stance on this non existant march then what i am by anything that anyone has posted in the lounge regarding haiti.

... and ill tell you summut else too... im far more offended by your stance on this non existant march then what i am by anything that anyone has posted in the lounge regarding haiti.

 

Yeah, cos it's really the same thing as proposing genocide or mass murder isn't it....?

 

PRAT... An ANTI WAR demo, wherever it's done, and whoever is doing it, is generally out there to stop the "killing in the name of..". ALL OF IT, including "our boys", are you so incapable of seeing that....? :rolleyes: Whether you agree with this particular group's mission statement is irrelevant to the point that's being made in the proposal - that ALL casualties of war be given respect and decency.... You tell me just where the problem with wanting to spread that message loud and clear lies... Offensive??? Bollocks... I'm offended that you see soldiers as being more important than innocent civilians.... Soldiers MAKE A CHOICE in this day in age, they are not press-ganged or conscripted, the civilians who died during Shock and Awe had no such choice.... GET IT!!?? <_<

 

You really have had your brain infected by a load of right-wing, reactionary sh!te haven't you.....? You're a sell out to your 60s Generation who had the guts to want to change the world for the better, and all you seem to do is criticise the progress made in the 60s and 70s..... Well, we'd ALL be the worse off without that progress....

they died fighting muslim extremists,

 

There weren't any fanatical Muslim Extremists operating in Iraq until we removed Saddam... There was no such thing as "Sadr City" either. Shiite extremists were kept under control.... Now they're running the fukkin' country..... :rolleyes: So, really, in a way, our Govt's foolishness is killing "our boys", you should be far more offended by that than anything a few marchers have to say....

 

As for Afghanistan - well, again, we picked the fight with the Taliban (who are NOT Al Qaeda, you'd may as well say that ETA and the IRA are the same just because both are Seperatist organisations...).. The Taliban were no serious threat to us, they're practically in the fukkin' stone age... Of course NOW they're a problem because we spread them out to Pakistan whereas before they were confined and not going anywhere....

 

Again, great job.... Fantastic military and post-invasion "planning", Sun Tzu must really be proud of Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc..... :rolleyes: