My gripe in the whole matter is with Clarissa Dick and Ian Blair, the cops on the ground that actually carried out the killing are heroic men to me who risked their lives because they thought they were dealing with a suicide bomber, the f*** up was by Clarissa Dick

 

The guys that carried out the killing could have been blown to kingdom come along with the entire passengers of the train, they dont have laptops on them with pics of DeMenezes and the wanted suicide bomber, they just went "route 1" and took him out when Dick identified De Menezes as a suicide bomber, you can't arrest a suicide bomber mate

 

Remember Madrid

 

CRESSIDA Dick by the way.... :P

 

And, okay, fair enough, the 'Grunts' I MAY have a bit of sympathy with, they were seriously let down by the so-called "intelligence" and their higher-ups giving them confusing and conflicting info/instructions, but that IS NO EXCUSE FOR SHOOTING A GUY WHO THEY AINT 100% ABOUT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER........... They didn't even attempt an arrest, they went there with the express purpose of killing him, no matter what.... At least one surveillance guy said "it's not him" remember.... And also remember that the West Midlands cops were operatiing under similar conditions and assumptions that the suspects MAY have rigged their flat to explode, and THEY managed to affect an arrest WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE, whether innocent bystander or guilty person..... So, your whole statement is utter cr@p as far as I'm concerned.....

 

And this fawning over Cressida Dick that Ken Livingstone has been doing recently is SERIOUSLY p!ssing me off (which is probably why I'm reacting so violently to your posts....). GAWD, talk about a change in tune from Livingstone..... More like changing the fukkin' CD and playing a completely different artist.... What a two-faced c/unt Livingstone is..... <_< I seem to remember him being VERY critical of the Met at the time of the shooting, now here he is kissing Cressida's arse...... Well, if you want an example of "Political Correctness", look no further than this......... Would he be kissing her arse and saying that she should be Met Chief Constable if SHE were a HE.....???? There you go mate, that's your fukkin' "Political Correctness".... Not a black geezer playing The Doctor......... :rolleyes:

Now next time there could well be a REAL suicide bomber on a train and the cops will hesitate or not shoot because of fears of a public and media vendetta and hundreds on the train will die

I would like to know why these cops that were so decisive and as keen to avoid hesitation as you say didn't 'deal' with de Menezes while he was on the bus then? Surely you would agree that this is at least one charge of incompetence that ought to have been punished, no?

I would like to know why these cops that were so decisive and as keen to avoid hesitation as you say didn't 'deal' with de Menezes while he was on the bus then? Surely you would agree that this is at least one charge of incompetence that ought to have been punished, no?

 

It was a different team though Tyron ? :unsure:

 

Intelligence and surveillance needs to be examined for the future but the armed unit at the station did what they had to do tbh and in similar circumstances hope they would do the same again, I would rather see 1 innocent person killed than see 100 killed because the cops didn't take the guy out

I know it is only Hollywood and not reality but remember The Siege with Bruce Willis and Denzel Washington ? in it there was a fake attempt to blow up a bus so that the terrorists could test the police reaction to prepare them for the REAL attack the next day ? the day before Stockwell there was FOUR failed suicide bombs on the tubes so as far as the cops are concerned that could have been a dummy run for the real attack the day De Menezes got shot, in London the day De Menezes was shot people were on high alert, they were edgy, scared etc etc so if the public were that then its pretty fair to say the police were too, we all have the luxury of playing monday morning quarterback from the luxury of our bedrooms or wherever the pc is stored and not being in the firing line where a split second call can cost 100 lives or even more, the police did what they had to do and did the right thing, the surveillance cops should be sacked or demoted to helping old ladies across the street but the armed unit deserve medals not media vilification

 

 

I would like to know why these cops that were so decisive and as keen to avoid hesitation as you say didn't 'deal' with de Menezes while he was on the bus then? Surely you would agree that this is at least one charge of incompetence that ought to have been punished, no?

 

Exactly.... And the likes of Sir Ian B-Liar and Cressida Dick should've been demoted and/or sacked as well....

 

The fact that the Police didn't deal with De Menezes on the bus gives me cause for suspicion tbh... In fact, the very FACT that he didn't blow himself up on the bus should have given the police pause for thought that they were, in fact, WRONG about this guy being the guy they were looking for, and I repeat that one surveillance guy said "it's not him" and another one said they "could not be sure".... That's two Officers at least with serious doubts... It doesn't wash with me....

 

The Police covered up the facts of what happened on that day, they tampered with the logs, and they got together to cook up their stories.... GUILTY as far as I'm concerned at least of a cover up and conspiracy after the fact.... If they'd been fukkin' well honest about it from day one, then I may have been a little more forgiving of an 'honest mistake', but they didn't and they lied, lied and lied again to cover their arses and painted Mr Menezes as a "suspicious character" to make it appear as if he somehow "deserved" it. well, he's a foreigner innit.... ? <_< And the facts are that this is FAR from being an isolated incident, there are literally hundreds of examples of the brutality of the Metropolitan police which has resulted in the deaths of people in custody or on the street - the schizophrenic guy whom the filth strangled to death, the bloke in Hackney with the table leg in the whom the pigs shot in the head because they "thought" it was a sawn-off shotgun (yeah, real experts on firearms these c/unts.....), the "terrorist suspect" they shot in Forest Gate (miraculously only managing to wound the guy...) and again the 'intelligence' turned out to be complete bullsh"t...... Oh, there are LOADS of others, and when you actually look at it closely, I'm afraid that it tends to point to a certain culture that exists within the Met Police, and they're not exactly very nice to their own either, especially if they happen to be gay (Brian Paddick who was hounded out of his job amid totally false accusations that he was sleeping with rent boys and taking drugs) or asian (Tariq Ghaffur who successfully sued the Met for racism)..... The Met is institutionally RACIST and HOMOPHOBIC, and it stinks...... <_<

 

I dont approve of "shoot to kill" in any case any more than I approve of vigilanteism; well, I mean, look at what happens when you have a policy like that, one dead innocent guy and the real culprits could've been totally free and at liberty to do the deed....

 

Could you imagine what would've happened had a similar policy been in force during the 70s and 80s with Irish terrorism...? The Guildford Four, Birmingham Six and The Maguires would all have been shot dead by Police.... Sorry, but you dont just shoot people because you think they might be guilty of something, that's not 'Policing' as I understand it, 'policing' is gathering evidence, arresting suspects and making a case against them in a court of law..... Even Nazi War Criminals, responsible for the deaths of millions, got a fair trial..... :rolleyes:

It was a different team though Tyron ? :unsure:

 

Intelligence and surveillance needs to be examined for the future but the armed unit at the station did what they had to do tbh and in similar circumstances hope they would do the same again, I would rather see 1 innocent person killed than see 100 killed because the cops didn't take the guy out

Yes, but I would like to know at what point the HQ moved from stating that it was a ridiculous question to ask whether de Menezes was Osman to a point where they're dispatching armed officers to Stockwell station - I don't believe the armed forces on the ground to be the ones at fault here, the HQ were the ones that screwed up massively here and for some reason haven't been held to account why they suddenly changed their minds on whether de Menezes was a terrorist or a civilian for little or no reason other than him entering a train station...

Yes, but I would like to know at what point the HQ moved from stating that it was a ridiculous question to ask whether de Menezes was Osman to a point where they're dispatching armed officers to Stockwell station - I don't believe the armed forces on the ground to be the ones at fault here, the HQ were the ones that screwed up massively here and for some reason haven't been held to account why they suddenly changed their minds on whether de Menezes was a terrorist or a civilian for little or no reason other than him entering a train station...

 

I do see your point for sure, the surveillance and intelligence teams totally fukked up but what I object to is the witchunt against the armed forces and them being branded cold blooded murderers and so on when infact they did a great professional job and were acting under orders from above, there could not be a more fitting surname than Commander Dick but the guys that pulled the trigger on the train should not be blamed for anything

the suggestion that there shouldnt have been an enquirey is utterly wrong... an innocent man was killed, of course there should.

 

ive shifted my original stance on this after reading scotts posts ... the point is, IF he was suspected of being a suicide bomber WHY TF DID THEY LET HIM GET AS FAR AS THE CROWDED TUBE?... he should have been tackled long before he got there.

Any inquiry should have been behind closed doors and away from the media with only the final result published though, in the interests of national security and the risk of would be suicide bombers publicly learning police procedure and operational tactics through the tabloids the inquiry should have been a private affair

 

Any inquiry should have been behind closed doors and away from the media with only the final result published though, in the interests of national security and the risk of would be suicide bombers publicly learning police procedure and operational tactics through the tabloids the inquiry should have been a private affair

 

Dont be bloody ridiculous.... This is a supposedly a bloody DEMOCRACY, or maybe you should just bugger off to China or Zimbabwe if you believe the sh!t you're shovelling..... The Police Force polices our streets BY PUBLIC CONSENT mate..... any public authority, even at local level, can at any time withdraw that consent and set up their own system of Policing.... The Police, therefore, HAVE to justify themselves and HAVE to be 100% Publically accountable, just like our Politicians and Courts are (or should be at any rate....)

I do see your point for sure, the surveillance and intelligence teams totally fukked up but what I object to is the witchunt against the armed forces and them being branded cold blooded murderers and so on when infact they did a great professional job and were acting under orders from above, there could not be a more fitting surname than Commander Dick but the guys that pulled the trigger on the train should not be blamed for anything

 

Of course they should... They should be blamed for being a bunch of incompetent, trigger happy dicks..... You explain to me just WHY when two of their surveillance guys are expressing doubts about it being the guy they're looking for, not to mention the fact that they let him get on a BUS without tackling him there, and when they probably could have grappled him on the tube, and held him in an arm-lock so he couldn't have moved his arms at all, that they chose to shoot him.....

 

And you still haven't answered my point about the West Midlands lot who managed to take the ACTUAL suspects in alive and unharmed..... IE, without shooting anyone.... Are the West Midlands force just that bit more COMPETENT than the Met then.....? :rolleyes:

 

Of course they should... They should be blamed for being a bunch of incompetent, trigger happy dicks..... You explain to me just WHY when two of their surveillance guys are expressing doubts about it being the guy they're looking for, not to mention the fact that they let him get on a BUS without tackling him there, and when they probably could have grappled him on the tube, and held him in an arm-lock so he couldn't have moved his arms at all, that they chose to shoot him.....

 

And you still haven't answered my point about the West Midlands lot who managed to take the ACTUAL suspects in alive and unharmed..... IE, without shooting anyone.... Are the West Midlands force just that bit more COMPETENT than the Met then.....? :rolleyes:

 

Dick made the call, the armed officers were just following orders, they were given the code over the radio and it is not their job to question it any more than it is the job of a soldier to defy orders from his colonel, if the cops who carried out the shooting had refused they would have been busted out of the force for insubordination, orders are there to be followed, the armed officers only arrived on the scene at Stockwell it was a surveillance team that followed him on the bus not CO19, the surveillance team were not armed so ciould not have engaged him on the bus

 

As for the West Midlands it is a lot easier to do it via a house than it is a crowded train packed with hundreds of people, the West Midlands cops had a much wider space to work in and could use stuff like tear gas, you can't let off tear gas in the confines of a packed underground train

 

 

Dont be bloody ridiculous.... This is a supposedly a bloody DEMOCRACY, or maybe you should just bugger off to China or Zimbabwe if you believe the sh!t you're shovelling..... The Police Force polices our streets BY PUBLIC CONSENT mate..... any public authority, even at local level, can at any time withdraw that consent and set up their own system of Policing.... The Police, therefore, HAVE to justify themselves and HAVE to be 100% Publically accountable, just like our Politicians and Courts are (or should be at any rate....)

 

Not when all of our lives are at stake mate, national security is the paramount importance not the family of Mr De Menezes so explaining police procedures and police tactics through an open inquest and reporting it pretty much aids future suicide bombers, there should have been a news blackout until the final findings, those CO19 officers are the guys that will have to deal with future suicide bombers, it is wrong for their whole details about how they do their job be in the hands of future suicide bombers and there will be future suicide bombers it is a total certainty

Edited December 17, 200816 yr by B.A Baracus

and when they probably could have grappled him on the tube, and held him in an arm-lock so he couldn't have moved his arms at all, that they chose to shoot him.....

 

You are playing monday morning quarterback again there mate, how would the officers know at the time if he was a suicide bomber about the detonator ? he could have had something in his hand, he could have had a detonator in his ipod, he could have had a detonator that is released when his hand no longer grips it, grappling with him could have disturbed the device, there is not the time to f*** around and take chances, one split second error in the heat of the moment and we have dead suspect, dead officers, dead passengers, they could not take the risk of taking him in alive for the very reason I said above about not knowing the detonator, ok this time it was not a suicide bomber next time it likely will be

 

You have the luxury of examining the matter from the luxury of your college office where you are not in harms way, these officers had hundreds of lives depending on what decision they make and how they make it

As for the West Midlands it is a lot easier to do it via a house than it is a crowded train packed with hundreds of people, the West Midlands cops had a much wider space to work in and could use stuff like tear gas, you can't let off tear gas in the confines of a packed underground train

 

That's just an excuse... And I'm not really sure the West Midlands lot even USED tear-gas given the fact that the suspects came out of the flat with their hands up and not covering thier eyes.... They probably WOULD have assumed that the suspects had perhaps rigged the flat to explode as well... Nah, sorry, they were clearly a lot more competent, the operation was a hell of a lot better organised and planned and the cops themselves a lot less trigger happy.....

 

there will be future suicide bombers it is a total certainty

 

Maybe we should be asking ourselves WHY there are suicide bombings... What do you think....? Pretty obvious to me the reasons for this sh!t.....

 

You are playing monday morning quarterback again there mate, how would the officers know at the time if he was a suicide bomber about the detonator ? he could have had something in his hand, he could have had a detonator in his ipod, he could have had a detonator that is released when his hand no longer grips it, grappling with him could have disturbed the device, there is not the time to f*** around and take chances, one split second error in the heat of the moment and we have dead suspect, dead officers, dead passengers, they could not take the risk of taking him in alive for the very reason I said above about not knowing the detonator, ok this time it was not a suicide bomber next time it likely will be

 

You have the luxury of examining the matter from the luxury of your college office where you are not in harms way, these officers had hundreds of lives depending on what decision they make and how they make it

 

So, what's their excuse in Forest Gate then...? What's their excuse in Hackney when a bloke was shot for carrying a table leg, long before there ever even WAS suicide bombings, what's the excuse for smothering a guy to death when he's suffering from a MENTAL ILLNESS and is not in control of his actions, what's the excuse for arresting an opposition MP who's only doing his bloody JOB, and again the excuse of "national security" was used, so presumably you wont want a full enquiry into the Damian Green affair.... :rolleyes: You make FAR TOO MANY EXCUSES for the Police.... It's obvious to me that there is a culture within the Met that leads to them thinking that they are above the law and can act in this manner.... Why is it that no other Police Force in the country is over-stepping the bounds to anything like the degree that the Met does.....?

 

Oh, and by the way, an Inquiry has concluded that Police acted TOTALLY OUT OF ORDER with regards to the Damian Green affair..... At least we got ONE result...... :rolleyes:

You have the luxury of examining the matter from the luxury of your college office where you are not in harms way, these officers had hundreds of lives depending on what decision they make and how they make it

 

You seem to think that I dont realise the dangers... I do, but I also see the even bigger danger that we can, in a sense, be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.... What IS the point in this "war against terror" or fighting to "preserve our values" when our Govt and the Police are actually the ones ERODING the values (ie, openness, transparency, civil liberties, democracy, human rights, etc....) that we are supposedly fighting for....? We're just handing Al Qaeda huge Propaganda victories every time if you ask me, and we're also radicalising young muslims in this country by our actions abroad (in pretty much the same way that 'Bloody Sunday' radicalised young Catholics in Northern Ireland and prompted a HUGE swell in the ranks of the Provos, and precipitated the Pub bombings in the 70s...), witness another court case with that Doctor chappie, no criminal record, a law-abiding citizen by all accounts, then he went out to Iraq to help out and saw what we and the bloody Yanks did out there, and came back a Terrorist.....

 

Great job Tony, George, really "winning hearts and minds" innit......? :rolleyes:

As an addendum to my previous post... I would say that there is just as much danger in stuff like The Patriot Act and some of the elements of the Anti-Terrorism Legislation as there is from terrorists themselves.... We MUST be vigilant of what our Govts do now more than ever IMO..... I would say what happened to Damian Green should really be our final wake-up call to this sh!t....