November 15, 201311 yr I've double checked Bing Crosby's No.1's in the Book. White Christmas was No.1 in 1942, & 1945 to 1951. 8 times at No.1. There's something not quite right about all this. So 'White Christmas' was no.1 in 1942, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950 & 1951. A pretty impressive run, huh? Certainly puts the modern day re-charting of downloaded Christmas tracks into perspective! So this chart ends just before the 'official' chart begins in November 1952 and where was 'White Christmas' at Christmas 1952? Nowhere in the top 10. Christmas no.1 for the previous 7 years, then suddenly not even in the top 10 the year after, sorry but that simply doesn't stack up. Of course for all we know it's the official chart that is 'wrong'....... Edited November 15, 201311 yr by Col1967
November 15, 201311 yr I'm told that although The OCC endorsed the 1940 to 1952 Book, they have no intentions of adding it to UK Chart History. Isn't that something of a contradiction, though? If you endorse something that surely means you accept it without reservation, so why won't it be considered canon?
November 15, 201311 yr Chartstats did that before the OCC closed them down. but minimum 1 website have this info in the same format as Chartstats had. Edited November 15, 201311 yr by AlexRange
November 16, 201311 yr So this chart ends just before the 'official' chart begins in November 1952 and where was 'White Christmas' at Christmas 1952? Nowhere in the top 10. Christmas no.1 for the previous 7 years, then suddenly not even in the top 10 the year after, sorry but that simply doesn't stack up. Of course for all we know it's the official chart that is 'wrong'....... That does seem a little bit odd, but did NME have a different policy for which discs to count for their charts? Is it possible that NME only counted current releases, and not those making sales from old stock? Or else is it possible that 1952 was the first time in years that Bing's recording wasn't re-issued? (I seem to recall the master of the first recording was broken by being used too many times to make copies so perhaps this prevented a 1952 reissue?). I don't know enough about how the music shops and charts worked back then to know if either could be the answer, just saying there could be an explanation. Or it could just be this 'new' chart after all.
November 17, 201311 yr I think it has to be remembered that the book charts are not weekly lists of what has been sold, but of what has been ordered by shops to be sold. You will notice that the first week of each month has most new entries, I would think because that's the new releases for the month that have been ordered by stores. A few more new entries debut in this manner in week two. Thereafter weeks three, four and where applicable week five invariably have none. This would seem to confirm my theory. However even on the basis that the chart is compiled from store orders and not sales, it is at least an indicator of what the stores were stocking to be sold, and is well compiled on that basis.
November 18, 201311 yr There's something not quite right about all this. So 'White Christmas' was no.1 in 1942, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950 & 1951. A pretty impressive run, huh? Certainly puts the modern day re-charting of downloaded Christmas tracks into perspective! So this chart ends just before the 'official' chart begins in November 1952 and where was 'White Christmas' at Christmas 1952? Nowhere in the top 10. Christmas no.1 for the previous 7 years, then suddenly not even in the top 10 the year after, sorry but that simply doesn't stack up. Of course for all we know it's the official chart that is 'wrong'....... Given the sorely limited sample the first 'official' chart was based on, anything is possible.
November 18, 201311 yr One song I expected to have been a #1 was 'Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy' by the Andrews Sisters (the basis for Christina's 'Candyman') - but it doesn't seem to have charted at all! :o
November 18, 201311 yr That does seem a little bit odd, but did NME have a different policy for which discs to count for their charts? Is it possible that NME only counted current releases, and not those making sales from old stock? Or else is it possible that 1952 was the first time in years that Bing's recording wasn't re-issued? (I seem to recall the master of the first recording was broken by being used too many times to make copies so perhaps this prevented a 1952 reissue?). I don't know enough about how the music shops and charts worked back then to know if either could be the answer, just saying there could be an explanation. Or it could just be this 'new' chart after all. I'm told by various people, including a HMV manager (of the time) that have previously said Record shops stocks, soetimes had tons of stock kept from years before. We've got to remember that Sheet Music was outsellling Records althrough the 40s & into the 50s. It was around 1956/57, when records overtook. I was told that a record in 1952/53, would sell as little, as 7/8,000 to make #1. The truth was that, it was your mum & dad, that had Radiogrammes & the poorer people, didn't even have electric. The house was run by gas mantel lamps. The cheapest record players, were wind-up & the sound could be very poor. Anton Karas is a fine example of stock longevity. "The Harry Lime Theme" released in 1949, was still selling & regularly bought from the 1950s to the 1970s. Same for Bing. The NME charts for the 1950s (especially those daft top 12s) are not a fine example of correctness. Gene Autry's "Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer" is another that hung around for years & Bing's other 2 Christmas hits "Christmas In Kilarney" & "Do You Hear What I Hear". Though Jack Jones version, is one we usually now hear of "Do You Hear What I Hear". White Christmas was a constant top 100 hit, for 35 years. It didn't need to be re-issued, until the advent of 45s. 1957, was an early 45, of it & he then had competition from Pat Boone's version. In comparison to 1970s Christmas songs, it ain't much different. Obviously Slade had a re-hash at the Reading Festival in 1980, which pushed that annoying song, passed the 1 million mark. Consider it hadn't passed it. in the 7 years previous re-issues. Greg Lake continued to sell & make the top 100, every year from 1975 to 1983. 1952's Christmas gave Bing Crosby, a lot of competion from Mantovani's version too. Which may explain, why Bing, didn't re-enter the top 12, that year.
November 18, 201311 yr I think you're off the mark with the Slade track there - the 1980 Reading festival re-hash only had two weeks at number 70 so won't have added much to the sales total at all, and all the annual "re-issues" were after that.
November 18, 201311 yr I think you're off the mark with the Slade track there - the 1980 Reading festival re-hash only had two weeks at number 70 so won't have added much to the sales total at all, and all the annual "re-issues" were after that. No, I'm not off the mark, at all. It was the apperance at Reading (though I felt bloody stupid) standing watching them perform it, on 30th August! The appearance led to the popularity re-surge & both versions were in the top 100 in December 1980. They clocked up 20,000+ between them, to earn the song/record whatever, a platinum certificate in December 1980. It's a fact. It was even covered in Record Business Magazine (much better than Music Week at the time, may I add). You ight be able to check that, on the BPI Awards site. I think I'm completely correct, on that one. Edited November 18, 201311 yr by davetaylor
November 18, 201311 yr No, I'm not off the mark, at all. It was the apperance at Reading (though I felt bloody stupid) standing watching them perform it, on 30th August! The appearance led to the popularity re-surge & both versions were in the top 100 in December 1980. They clocked up 20,000+ between them, to earn the song/record whatever, a platinum certificate in December 1980. It's a fact. It was even covered in Record Business Magazine (much better than Music Week at the time, may I add). You ight be able to check that, on the BPI Awards site. I think I'm completely correct, on that one. Yep. Checked that. Exactly correct. You'd sell 4,000 a week to make the 70 - 75 positions in December 1980 & 3,000 in the 76 to 100 positions. 960,000 sold in the 1973/74 run. 980,000 by 1979 & 20,000 taking it to the 1980 Platinum certificate. With 273,000 sold in one week in 1973.
November 18, 201311 yr I've had another look at the 8 No.1 'Runs' of Bing Crosby's White Christmas. I now see that it has 24 No.1 Weeks - not 23. There was a missing No.1 Week on W/B 24th December 1951, which I failed to spot. So, it had 9 missing No.1 Weeks, not 8. It also means that Bing Crosby has 192 No.1 Weeks - not 191.
November 19, 201311 yr I like the book, it's useful for advising on which were the most popular versions at the time as far as orders went. But that's it, it's not a sales chart, it's what shops ordered, stocked, to sell. As Dave mentioned sheet music sold more than records till the mid fifties, and I also believe you can discount the 'token' top 12 charts published by the NME. At least until 1955 sheet music was a better indicator of popularity, and from May 1949. more accurately compiled than any other chart of the time. If you factor in the most popular versions of a record from the book to the songs in the sheets chart you've got a more accurate picture of what was popular at the time.
November 19, 201311 yr Now, where as I knew the man responsible for the charts & (indeed) it's more accurate than NME could ever be. But does it include Double A sides as one, or have titles been separated. Something I must check. Now all I must do is find a better way to take in 1953 - 54, then it goes very nicely into BFBS charts & into the BBC lists. NME? What was that made up, error filled, hyped nonsense? Don't forget our Christmas special, will feature the RTL Christmas Top 20s for 1945, 1950 & 1955 on 2NG. What a pity indeed that he stopped in 1952.... Your post intrigues me and also triggered some questions: 1. You write about 1953 & 1954 and suggests that NME was crap back then, why and what direction are you thinking to better fill these 2 years? 2. Also what are the BFBS charts? I have never heard of these. Are these the Melody Maker charts? 3. Are these BFBS charts somewhere on the web for us to analyze/study? rgds, Art
November 19, 201311 yr Hi Art, for me the early NME charts were a joke. They were based on a sample of 12 shops all in London. Different London shops were used each week so the chart positions swung like a pendulum. The only other chart around then was the sheet music chart. Much better, especially now that we know which versions of the songs were most popular. I believe Dave referred to 'BFBS' the British Forces Broadcasting Service who compiled a chart from 1955 along the same lines as the BBC.
November 19, 201311 yr I've had another look at the 8 No.1 'Runs' of Bing Crosby's White Christmas. I now see that it has 24 No.1 Weeks - not 23. There was a missing No.1 Week on W/B 24th December 1951, which I failed to spot. So, it had 9 missing No.1 Weeks, not 8. It also means that Bing Crosby has 192 No.1 Weeks - not 191. I'd like someone to check this, as i've left my glasses at work today. I make this the missing chart dates in the book - 1940 30 DEC 1941 29 DEC 1942 28 DEC 1943 27 DEC 1944 25 DEC 1945 1 JAN & 24 DEC 1946 30 DEC 1947 29 DEC 1948 27 DEC 1949 26 DEC 1950 2 JAN & 25 DEC 1951 1 JAN & 24 DEC So maybe the 9 missing weeks, included for White Christmas (1942 & 1945-51), includes one of the January dates? Great book - I've been sorting my 78s alphabetically, and reached the letter G - so far i've found hit 78s in my collection from AMBROSE, ANDREWS SISTERS, Winifred ATWELL, Charlie BARNETT, Max BYGRAVES, Nat 'King' COLE, Bing CROSBY, Deanna DURBIN, Percy FAITH, Reggie GOFF & Georges GUETARY.
November 19, 201311 yr ChartManiac - White Christmas was was No.1 in these 'missing' Weeks, in the Book:, (All are Week Beginning - W/B - Monday Dates) 28th December 1942 30th December 1946 29th December 1947 27th December 1948 26th December 1949 to 2nd January 1950 25th December 1950 to 1st January 1951 24th December 1951 = 9 Weeks Which gives it 24 No.1 Weeks, with the 15 No.1 Weeks that it gets from Charts that are published in the Book.
November 20, 201311 yr ChartManiac - White Christmas was was No.1 in these 'missing' Weeks, in the Book:, (All are Week Beginning - W/B - Monday Dates) 28th December 1942 30th December 1946 29th December 1947 27th December 1948 26th December 1949 to 2nd January 1950 25th December 1950 to 1st January 1951 24th December 1951 = 9 Weeks Which gives it 24 No.1 Weeks, with the 15 No.1 Weeks that it gets from Charts that are published in the Book. Not sure why you've not included 24th December 1945.
November 20, 201311 yr ChartManiac - I've not included W/B 24th December 1945 because that was not a 'missing' No.1 Week for White Christmas. White Christmas was at No.2 on W/B 17th December 1945. That means it was still at No.2 in the 'missing' Week of W/B 24th December. You Belong To My Heart, (again by Bing Crosby), was No.1 on W/B 17th December, so it is that which gets an 'extra' No.1 Week on W/B 24th December. Giving it a 4th Week at No.1. White Christmas did not reach No.1 until W/B 31st December in 1945. It was one of about 17 times, that Bing replaced himself at No.1, between February 1940 & December 1946.
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