Jees - when did this become a Gary Barlow witch hunt?

 

It may not be performing as well as their last 3 albums but to say it's flopping is a bit of an exaggeration - no.1 album, 3rd highest selling album of the year (over 200k sold in 2 weeks) and a number 1 single from it. Doesn't sound like a flop to me! And to blame Gary for it not selling a million in a month, being called III not 3 and not having more Howard leads is laughable

Edited December 14, 201410 yr by jay727

Gary shouldn't shoulder any additional responsibility for the relatively poor showing of the album. They were all involved in the tax issue but with Gary's high profile and charity work he's been the one singled out. I assume all three decide on album song choices and the promotion campaign. I think they've made some late decisions due to the situation with Jason and I now wonder if they would have come back much earlier, but because of Jason's reluctance to commit delayed their return hoping he would have a change of heart. Regardless of the issues since Progress I am genuinely surprised at the extent of the down turn in their sales and wonder where their fan base went? Who would have thought that their lead single would do so well (comparatively) and the album relatively poorly.

 

I thought they performed really well on X Factor and the quality of Rule the World shone through. I still maintain that if their lead single had been along the lines of Patience or RTW their sales would have been considerably higher. These Days whilst catchy doesn't have the enduring quality associated with a world class song and as a result the casual listener or fan hasn't been inclined to purchase the album. Just look at Sam Smith and Ed Sheeren - their singles were strong enough to draw people in and high album sales followed.

Why is all the blame falling to Gary?if its the tax issue it was all of them not just Gary,mark and Howards private lives are a lot more colorful than Gary's.Yes,their album sales are down but for an act almost 25 years on go rivaling the current huge stars such as one direction and Olly murs to name a few is hardly a disaster,these days may not be a rule the world or patience but its catchy and they tried something new whichh did go number 1 and remains top 4 again this week. Their tour has also sold well let's not forget. The album still has legs and should go platinum by the end of the year and possibly end its campaign double platinum which is not a disaster. Do the bashers believe Ed sheeran and Sam smith will be achieving those levels of succees in 20 years time??I love both acts but like take that and others sales will dwindle.As I have said before the boys can what the hell they like in their private lives as its up to them,my decision for supporting them falls completely on music and I will spend my money on their music and tours as long as I enjoy it which I can honestly say I still am.

 

I'm not on any witch hunt. I am a huge fan of Gary Barlow. His music is the only reason I am a Take That fan. On the day I heard Forever Love and thought that is exactly the song I would write, I have followed his career very closely. But does that mean that I cannot ever be critical? On the tax issue. yes they do all shoulder responsibility, but Gary Barlow is the most famous and most successful. He is considered the leader of Take That. He is the one the media listens to. The media aren't too bothered about what Howard has to say on the matter and only a little more from Mark Owen, so the words and actions of Gary Barlow are more important. He is the musical genius, and whilst I would never call III a flop, it does not have a single killer song on it that was needed to overcome the negative things that have happened over the past year. Do I blame Howard for that? No, because I expect Gary Barlow to make the magic happen, not Howard. Do I blame Mark Owen? No, because I don't see the Gary Barlow magic in his solo work. So, who am I going to blame? Do I think the over-exposure of Gary Barlow has been good or bad for the band? I think it has been bad. Maybe Gary Barlow has had too may other projects going on. Or maybe there never will be another Back For Good or Rule the World. Yes, the album and single got to number one in the UK, but that may not be good enough for them compared to previous releases to decide to continue as a band. I am not overly excited about that or the material on the album. Am I an expert on song writing and marketing? No, but I still want to formulate an opinion of why things are not doing nearly so well as the last albums. Because I conclude that Gary Barlow is largely responsible, does not mean I am on a witch hunt.

Edited December 15, 201410 yr by Bond Bug

So, Gary's fault is being the most famous and talented in the band and having kept himself busy this whole time?

Things are what they are; the papers had been on a witch hunt for a while and they found a way of destroying Gary's credibility regardless of what he did or didn't do. Gary couldn't have predicted that, no matter what, and there's nothing he can do about it anymore. No paper will bother reporting that Gary paid that tax a long time ago, so the negativity will always follow him. The only thing he can do is continue writing and enjoying music, for as long as he can.

I disagree about III not having strong enough material. As many fans who bought the album have said, III is their best album yet. Higher than Higher, Flaws, Get Ready for It and I Like It could all do very well and could help the album sell well, if promoted properly.

As for the other point being made, as a TT and GB fan, I wouldn't have liked an album where all 3 members shared lead vocals equally. I respect the need of all of them having leads, because the other 2 boys have their fans as well, but I wouldn't have liked an album where Gary had only 5-6 lead vocals. Most of the TT fans buying the album are in fact GB fans, so I'm sure they feel the same. TT is what it is because of the GB sound. Besides, I don't see how Howard or Mark could have sung any of the songs Gary has lead vocals on; it would have been a mess. Don't forget these songs have to be sung live as well.

Edited December 15, 201410 yr by milly

Gary is the dominant person in TT when Robbie is not with them, one reason he jokingly said in a German interview he is happy that Rob did not join again. There is always a core of truth in each joke.

There are those who like III and other's don't. Fact is that the obsession of TT by the general public has decreased and even the Core fans outside the UK have not shown real support. III did not chart or charts badly in Robbie's core countries which is surprising as TT and Rob are at least linked.

One reason for the bad sales and the sales are bad even with decling album sales is the over exposure of Gary through two years. This is normal. Every artist overexposed gets the press on his hook like Robbie in 2006. But it is also his arrogant way to deal with the tax issues and as far as the financial magazines have reported the money is not paid back fully by now (He had two tax issues, not one).

I am wondering if their sales will be steady from now on and how they will do in Germany after the promo.

Gary is the dominant person in TT when Robbie is not with them, one reason he jokingly said in a German interview he is happy that Rob did not join again. There is always a core of truth in each joke.

But it is also his arrogant way to deal with the tax issues and as far as the financial magazines have reported the money is not paid back fully by now (He had two tax issues, not one).

The fact that Gary let Robbie be the main figure on Progress may be one of the reason things are how they are right now. Many TT fans disliked Robbie's implication and much more disliked the album exactly because of this. Progress is still the one TT album from this era I do not own and have no intention of purchasing because I'm simply not interested in listening to Robbie's voice. Progressed is another deal.

 

Again this word, "arrogant". What did he say or do that was so arrogant? He didn't even speak about the issue, aside from the apology on twitter, God only knows why he had to apologize, though, since it wasn't his fault. I'm no fan of Nigel Martin Smith, but I have no reason to believe he was lying, especially because he was so revolted that the papers weren't reporting the truth. He said that Gary had solved the problem as soon as he had found out about it and I believe him.

I'm more revolted that Gary was made a scapegoat by the papers, while Robbie, Adele, 1D and many of the other celebs who are involved in similar schemes don't even get a mention, because they are the papers' darlings.

Edited December 15, 201410 yr by milly

Surely These Days is the most representative 'trio' single they could have come back with. All three of them sing practically every line of the song together in harmony.

 

I think there's a good spread of vocals on the album too. Howard isn't utilised much as a lead vocalist but he never really has been so I doubt many people are expecting him to pop up leading half of the tracks.

Surely These Days is the most representative 'trio' single they could have come back with. All three of them sing practically every line of the song together in harmony.

 

I think there's a good spread of vocals on the album too. Howard isn't utilised much as a lead vocalist but he never really has been so I doubt many people are expecting him to pop up leading half of the tracks.

 

 

I agree with you goodelta. Since day one Gary was the main singer with Mark taking lead occasionally, this has worked so why completely change it. I would be leaning towards agreeing with a point Milly made "The fact that Gary let Robbie be the main figure on Progress may be one of the reason things are how they are right now. Many TT fans disliked Robbie's implication and much more disliked the album exactly because of this. Progress is still the one TT album from this era I do not own and have no intention of purchasing because I'm simply not interested in listening to Robbie's voice. Progressed is another deal"

 

I was a fan who was not excited about Robbie returning as i dont think they needed him to return, that said, the Flood is one of my ultimate Take That songs and i am extremely fond of Love Love. I enjoyed Progress and Progressed but not to the levels of enjoyment i got from Beautiful World and The Circus. I would also say three is a stronger album than Progress but that is just my own feelings of the album.

 

 

People are moaning about Gary doing this and not doing that, lets not forget this man will of course grab everything he can as he is probably aware (and rightly so) how fickle his profession is, lets not forget Gary experienced a very different side of the coin and was fed to the lions by the press on a regular basis. For anyone to comeback from that takes something and i would believe Gary is very well aware it could happen again. He is striving on his career while he is on the right side of the coin and why not, he seems a strong family man and wants to secure as much as possible for his kids future and he is grabbing every opportunity along the way. I would believe Mark and Howard are the same, the difference is Gary has the highest profile of the remaining three members.

 

I see that people are comparing the sales of the new album to the previous and there is a big difference. That said, the album has time to accumulate decent sales, the album is not flopping, if the album charted outside the top 10 i would see the need for worry. If we compare sales of the new album to their very first 3 studio albums this new album is selling just as well. These Days looks likely to stay top 10 this week for yet another week from looking at iTunes and they achieved another number 1 single. The long standing and established acts are not managing to achieve the success Take That are receiving. In life it is always better to try and look at the positives instead of always looking for negatives. If you like the music Take That are delivering cherish it.

So, Gary's fault is being the most famous and talented in the band and having kept himself busy this whole time?

 

Who is to blame if Marks and Sparks sales do not meet expectations? The man at the top.

 

 

No paper will bother reporting that Gary paid that tax a long time ago, so the negativity will always follow him.

 

Are you claiming he has paid any taxes he avoided? If so, do you have a credible source?

 

 

 

I disagree about III not having strong enough material. As many fans who bought the album have said, III is their best album yet. Higher than Higher, Flaws, Get Ready for It and I Like It could all do very well and could help the album sell well, if promoted properly.

As for the other point being made, as a TT and GB fan, I wouldn't have liked an album where all 3 members shared lead vocals equally. I respect the need of all of them having leads, because the other 2 boys have their fans as well, but I wouldn't have liked an album where Gary had only 5-6 lead vocals. Most of the TT fans buying the album are in fact GB fans, so I'm sure they feel the same. TT is what it is because of the GB sound. Besides, I don't see how Howard or Mark could have sung any of the songs Gary has lead vocals on; it would have been a mess. Don't forget these songs have to be sung live as well.

 

Can you complete the following sentence, if the material is so good? This album is falling down the charts faster that other Take That albums because....

 

Can you complete the following sentence, if the material is so good? This album is falling down the charts faster that other Take That albums because....

 

I don't think album sales are that important though - they haven't been for a long time. I suppose they're an indication of any new following that an act may have - so I'd say that the poor (by their standards) figures could deduce that just the same old people are buying their stuff and they're not reaching a newer audience (and they very possibly have lost a few fans too). The big money with an act like Take That though - is the concert revenue (not just ticket sales but all the sh/te that goes with it - programs that will probably be about £35 a time for this tour, tee-shirts for around £35, sweatshirts for anything up to £70, useless key-rings and bracelets that fall to bits for around £15). So I don't think Take That are too bothered by the sales of III.

 

I can't comment on the album's quality as I can't be bothered even listening to it. I must reluctantly admit that I quite like the single 'These Days' (not enough to buy I hasten to add - I won't spend my wages - on which I've paid full tax by lining the pockets of three tax-avoiders).

Are you claiming he has paid any taxes he avoided? If so, do you have a credible source?

Can you complete the following sentence, if the material is so good? This album is falling down the charts faster that other Take That albums because....

 

As I've already said, Nigel Martin Smith has said on his fb account that Gary paid everything he was due the moment he found out something was wrong - that is long before the papers started writing rubbish. Of course I can't guarantee anything, but I don't see why he would be lying. He said it on his private account, in a moment of indignation, so I don't see what his agenda would be for lying. I actually asked him why he doesn't make the whole thing public and he said he didn't want to speak to any paper without Gary's consent on the matter.

 

I don't know why you say the album is falling down the charts so fast. It's even climbed on Amazon since its first week of release and it's sold over 70k this week. The deluxe edition started climbing on Amazon on Friday, when the album was back in store, after 2 weeks of complete absence. Beyonce's album needed I don't know how many weeks to sell 200k , I'd say TT are doing much better than her. They missed top 5 this week by 85 copies, that's all. If they had the same promo Ed Sheeran, 1D and Olly Murs are having, they'd be top 3 for sure. As far as I'm concerned, if they did more shows consistently, they'd sell a lot more. Surprisingly, I've seen quite a few comments from fans this week stating they didn't even know TT had a new single and album out. I'm not saying they'd be having the sales of Progress, but they would have better sales for sure if they did the promotion right.

Edited December 16, 201410 yr by milly

The album is falling but not at an alarming rate, it just missed the top 5 this week by a very narrow margin. Sales were healthy, sales look set to be healthy this week. The single is performing at a healthy rate. Extra promotion would help and would add sales, that said, sales are hardly a disaster. If Take That manage a decent chart performance with a second single it will hold the album selling relatively firm.

Re tax issue: i think all of them or all of high profile celebrities don't make by themselves decisions about their money. They hire somebody who has idea about investments. So, if i was in their position and if the specialsit would say me that he found a place to win money, blah blahblah i would put only two questions: is it ilegal? (as i undertstand was not ilegal, but more imoral, right?) and what risk?. That is. I don't believe that the members of TT really knows the laws for investements (do you?) or that they are skilled to invest with such amount of money by themselves. So, for sure, they have to pay back now if it was a mistake or at the border of legality, but now at the end of the day, we all try to ease ourselves from taxes (or maybe is that only in Germany where the taxes are a science and there are so many loopholes and so many laws which one can use to pay less money that we need a specialist to fill our taxes papers).

 

I think the tax issue is the only one i don't have a problem either with TT or other celebrities which made a false step. Is not good, the country needs the money, but for me taxes and money are such a strange world, from which i understand nothing at all, that i can understand other people making mistakes or false steps.

 

Third album of the year after only two weeks is not bad at all!

 

 

The financial magazins which matter more than the word of Nigel have reported that Gary has NOT paid the taxes back yet. 35 million is half of his fortune and you have invested this kind of money usually. These Days is holding far better than the album. But if they sell 300,000 till the end of the year it is very poor sales even in this kind of market, not to mention that they do not sell in the rest of Europe, so hardly anything will add. Still it is not clear if they will indeed tour Europe, despite Gary said it. The tickets for the tour are more important these days, I agree. But compared to their last Robbie-less tour they only sold 450,000 tickets instead of 1.2 million.

And as far as I know the tickets went on sale before the album was out. Plus, fortunately for them their fanbase want to hear Rule the world rather than something knew.

Progress might not be of the TT4 fan taste in general, but it was their best selling and publically, commercially and critically most acclaimed album...because of the influence of a certain RW (otherwise III would have the same effect).

If they will not come up with a huge reunion and/or huge album next they are definitely on their way out on the grand scale. Look at the reviews of Under the Radar (Sunday Times) compared with III

The financial magazins which matter more than the word of Nigel have reported that Gary has NOT paid the taxes back yet. 35 million is half of his fortune and you have invested this kind of money usually. These Days is holding far better than the album. But if they sell 300,000 till the end of the year it is very poor sales even in this kind of market, not to mention that they do not sell in the rest of Europe, so hardly anything will add. Still it is not clear if they will indeed tour Europe, despite Gary said it. The tickets for the tour are more important these days, I agree. But compared to their last Robbie-less tour they only sold 450,000 tickets instead of 1.2 million.

And as far as I know the tickets went on sale before the album was out. Plus, fortunately for them their fanbase want to hear Rule the world rather than something knew.

Progress might not be of the TT4 fan taste in general, but it was their best selling and publically, commercially and critically most acclaimed album...because of the influence of a certain RW (otherwise III would have the same effect).

If they will not come up with a huge reunion and/or huge album next they are definitely on their way out on the grand scale. Look at the reviews of Under the Radar (Sunday Times) compared with III

Why would the financial magazines be more trustworthy when it comes to Gary's private affairs? He may have invested 35 millions, but he doesn't owe that much tax back, IF he owes anything.

 

I haven't read any review for Under the Radar, but I can imagine the papers are embracing Robbie. They've been making an existence off him for so long it's no surprise. I did, however, listen to a few of the tracks. That's because that was all I could swallow really. His voice is completely ruined and he basically shouts; it's quite awful and it's completely distracting from the songs. But the papers have never reported on Robbie's inability to sing, while picking on every single little thing of Gary's.

I have no doubts that a reunion would improve sales; I'd be deluded not to admit it. But I still like more the output of TT as a trio than as a quintet. Thankfully, the way they're doing commercially doesn't influence my musical taste. If it did, Progress would be my favorite.

 

People are also forgetting Robbie's album sales have seriously declined in the UK, and when Robbie rejoined take that they were far bigger in the UK at that time.I preferred them as 4 but there was fans if both who really wanted to see them as 5 again.I don't miss Jason out of the line up and three is a great album but I would also say its not their best,the circus is unbeatable for me. Regardless of what goes on I'm just delighted to have all the material they have released since they returned including Gary's album as part of my collection. I am aware they peaked and they won't achieve the huge album sales they have been achieving in the past but that's not to take away that at present they are still hugely successful.

 

Milly, I have to agree with you regarding Robbie's relationship with the media. Generally his reviews are consistently better than TT's and Gary's. Vocally Rob's voice is more powerful than Gary's but he is frequently out of tune; this is never pointed out by journalists and his performance skills carry him a long way. I also think if Gary had put out an album of essentially covers the papers would have pounced on this. A review of lll in the Telegraph by their music journalist , Neil McCormick, I think his name is, is indicative of the presses relationship with TT/Gary as every opportunity was taken to mention Rob. It was littered with references to Rob's influence on Progress and the far superior quality of it. The review also pitted lll against Rob's new album commenting on the quality of Rob's output- which I can't comment on as I've not listened to it. There is unquestionably a core group of journalists who appear to get some kind of kick out of pulling Gary down. Maybe it's to do with his affiliation with the Tories, although as far as I can tell, this amounts to Gary backing a music initiative of Cameron's. Whatever the reason Gary in particular is fair game and I think he knows it. I have to say that given the amount of abuse and stick he receives, whatever his failings are, Gary remains dignified with no sense of bitterness - and for that reason alone he deserves some credit.

Realistically 98% of the musicians are conservative, they are the biggest party in England and are close concentrated in the capital. We live in a democracy. Who cares what Gary or anyone else for that matter votes for. Most of these journalists write for right wing papers anyways!! Hypocrisy is outstanding, especially coming from Neil McCormick from the 'Torygraph'.

 

Robbie's Rudebox flopped, RKTVS was a critical flop, and take the crown sold less than Rudebox. Swings both ways ( a cover album) sold the best in the last 5 years for Robbie. His sales are falling harder and faster than Take That's.

 

All this Gary talk is utter nonsense. As mentioned above, TT and over 1,000 other people invested in that scheme. Obviously on the advice of accountants. They have enough going on with their lives without trying to figure out how much tax and income is coming in. It's not as if they have one salary job where the tax is simple and easy, they all have income from sources everywhere. I would imagine it's chaotic. They employ accountants to take care of this and invest their money wisely. The accountants messed up - these things happen. Much worse things happening in the world than a non-illegal and probably quite innocent act

Edited December 16, 201410 yr by jay727

Realistically 98% of the musicians are conservative, they are the biggest party in England and are close concentrated in the capital. We live in a democracy. Who cares what Gary or anyone else for that matter votes for. Most of these journalists write for right wing papers anyways!! Hypocrisy is outstanding, especially coming from Neil McCormick from the 'Torygraph'.

 

Robbie's Rudebox flopped, RKTVS was a critical flop, and take the crown sold less than Rudebox. Swings both ways ( a cover album) sold the best in the last 5 years for Robbie. His sales are falling harder and faster than Take That's.

 

All this Gary talk is utter nonsense. As mentioned above, TT and over 1,000 other people invested in that scheme. Obviously on the advice of accountants. They have enough going on with their lives without trying to figure out how much tax and income is coming in. It's not as if they have one salary job where the tax is simple and easy, they all have income from sources everywhere. I would imagine it's chaotic. They employ accountants to take care of this and invest their money wisely. The accountants messed up - these things happen. Much worse things happening in the world than a non-illegal and probably quite innocent act

 

I agree with everything you say. The tax thing shouldn't have been a big deal. I expect most people would try to pay less tax than they do, and millions do. Amazon manages to pay hardly any tax in the UK. Are those who say they will boycott Take That also stop their custom from companies who pay as little tax as possible? But the point I have been making is that this did become a big story for Gary Barlow and Take that. Why? Because, he had become one of the biggest household names in UK. And after being splashed across the front cover of tabloid newspapers and becoming a major story, Gary Barlow should have addressed the complaints. On the thread about the tax issue, I made this very point, that at least Gary Barlow needed to deal with the matter head on or pay the price when they released the next album.