Posted September 17, 200618 yr Pope Benedict XVI’s return to his old university at Regensburg in Germany for a speech entitled Faith, Reason and the University: Memories and Reflections was not the most obvious trigger for a new front in the clash of civilisations. The Pope began with a mild joke at the expense of his own religion, recalling that critics used to ask why the university had two departments devoted to God when He did not even exist. Then he strayed into controversial territory. But these are unusual times, and his decision to quote the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaeologus’s views on Islam guaranteed that his speech rang out beyond the ivory tower. The emperor’s words, taken at face value, certainly look explosive. “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,†he said. The point was to illustrate the fundamental contradiction between religion and holy war. The same contradiction, as any Muslim interested in debating the issue could point out, applies to Christianity. Violent conversion to any religious faith, or for that matter violent oppression of religious opponents, goes against God’s nature. The reaction this weekend shows that many Muslims and their leaders are not interested in this kind of debate. Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistan president, has accused Benedict of trying to associate Islam with terror. Churches have been firebombed in the West Bank. Indian Muslims burnt effigies of the Pope. In Iraq, Shi’ite and Sunni political parties and clerics, at each others’ throats most of the time, united in attacking his speech. Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, has to her credit defended his words, insisting they were misunderstood. The Pope’s important trip to Turkey in November will go ahead, Turkish officials said. But its aim, building bridges between faiths, looks even more of a challenge. Salih Kapusuz, deputy leader of the country’s ruling Islamic party, accused Benedict of either “pitiful ignorance†or a “deliberate distortion of truthsâ€. Not only was the Pope trying to revive the mentality of the Crusades: “He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini.†This is, in some ways, a re-run of the hoo-ha among some Muslims over the publication in a Danish newspaper of cartoons depicting Muhammad. In the frenzy that followed, with bloody riots and demonstrations in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Libya, Indonesia and India, about 140 people were killed and hundreds were injured. The cartoons were implicated in religious riots in Nigeria in which 200 people — Muslims and Christians — died. Denmark was targeted, its embassies attacked and its businesses boycotted. The clash of civilisations is not between Christianity and Islam, it is between nations that encourage religious diversity and those which practise religious intolerance. It is between those who favour open debate and those who think free speech is anathema. The Pope may or may not have known what a hornets’ nest he was stirring up. Even if he did, there was nothing inappropriate, within context, in what he said. The Vatican has said he is very sorry his speech caused such offence to Muslims. That is fine but it should not go further than that. He should certainly not be pushed into withdrawing his remarks. As in the case of the Danish cartoons, Muslim zealots are trying to impose their restrictions of free expression on the West. Mindful as we should be of religious sensitivities, that cannot be allowed to happen. What do you think, is free speech that we hold so dear in danger?
September 17, 200618 yr He will undoubtedly be shot now and have a fatwa put out on him but he is entitled to his opinion
September 17, 200618 yr And since when has the Vatican been such a 'champion' of Free Speech? That claim is utterly laughable for a start.... Frankly, I dont see how relevant it is to quote some emperor from the 14th Century in a 21st Century context. This is just yet another example of stoking up the fires between Christian and Muslim, the powers that control both faiths WANT a Holy War, because they want power, they want control. Spirituality and Free Speech???? :lol: :lol: Do me a fukkin' favour.... Neither the leaders of the Islamic faith nor the Catholic faith know the bloody meaning of the principles they claim to be upholding, both are as bad as each other as far as I'm concerned. The Pope is using the language of the Crusaders and the Islamic Clerics are using the language of Jihad - BOTH are using the language of ignorance, intolerance and fear..... In the words of Tom Araya - RELIGION IS HATE RELIGION IS FEAR RELIGION IS WAR RELIGION IS RAPE RELIGION'S OBSCENE RELIGION'S A WHORE
September 17, 200618 yr lets face it,... sooner or later theres going to be a huge religious war, especially when you get those mad 'end timers' who are trying to create armageddon so their saviour will come sooner! .... w t f?... the pope was foolish...?... maybe, but hes certainly a bloody hypocrit, after all just look at the attrocities the catholic church has overseen throughout time...
September 17, 200618 yr The phrase was totally taken out of context. Anyone who reads the entire speech will notice the Pope has said NOTHING wrong, except the fundamentalist muslims. I agree that the Catholic Church have done a lot of atrocities in history, but come one, you can´t balme them NOW for things that happened CENTURIES ago. With Islam is totally different, because people are being killed TODAY. Oh, and the Pope acuses your religion of being violent, and your response is to sent death threats, lol, what a nice way to prove your enemy wrong. I so detest people who kill in the name of God, that´s a million times worse then insulting God or any of his "prophets". On the other side, I feel really sorry for islamic people, for having this type of "human beings" as their representants, and for not being able do to nothing at all. It must be really disgusting. Unfortunately, that is the image that the Western World is building of the islamic people: a bunch of non-civilized people, fanatics, murderes, terrorists, ignorants, and I feel sorry specially for women in the islamic countries. Christianity has passed trough a similar period on the Middle Ages, and I hope the Islamic world can recover from this disgusting situation quick. At last in the Middle Ages atomic bombs didn´t exist.
September 17, 200618 yr I think I will sit on the fence here except it seems a good time to refer to the atheist anthem & US hit, written by Andy Partridge of XTC from their 1987 album Skylarking: XTC - Dear God Dear God, Hope you got the letter, And I pray you can make it better down here. I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer, But all the people that you made in your image, See them starving on their feet, 'Cause they don't get enough to eat From God, I can't believe in you. Dear God, sorry to disturb you, but I feel that I should be heard loud and clear. We all need a big reduction in amount of tears, And all the people that you made in your image, See them fighting in the street, 'Cause they can't make opinions meet, About God, I can't believe in you. Did you make disease, and the diamond blue? Did you make mankind after we made you? And the devil too! Dear God, Don't know if you noticed, But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book. Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look, And all the people that you made in your image, Still believing that junk is true. Well I know it ain't and so do you, Dear God, I can't believe in, I don't believe in, I won't believe in heaven and hell. No saints, no sinners, No Devil as well. No pearly gates, no thorny crown. You're always letting us humans down. The wars you bring, the babes you drown. Those lost at sea and never found, And it's the same the whole world 'round. The hurt I see helps to compound, that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Is just somebody's unholy hoax, And if you're up there you'll perceive, That my heart's here upon my sleeve. If there's one thing I don't believe in... It's you, Dear God.
September 18, 200618 yr Some people hate themselves so much that it makes totally impossible to love something that created the objected of their hate in his image. Edited September 18, 200618 yr by dido fan
September 18, 200618 yr Utterly ridiculous. His words were taken completely out of context. He was quoting a 14th century dialogue and his greater point was to say that peace requires both enemies to act. Meanwhile the Pope has apologized and people are burning churches in the Middle East. Unreal. I'm sorry but if Muslims can mobilize so quickly and condemn so sternly any random "offense" to their faith... why are they all but silent whenever a terrorist slaughters innocent people in the name of Islam?? I'm no Christian but I can't help but think that extremist Muslims really aren't helping to change their image of a barbaric, violent people. Considering the Pope engaged in an academic debate at a university and Muslims are responding by BURNING CHURCHES. If Christians or Jews acted similarly everytime a high-level Muslim insulted those faiths, there'd be hardly a mosque left on this ****ing planet.
September 18, 200618 yr I´ve heard they killed a nun somewhere... Must be awful to be a christian, specially a clergymen, in the islamic countries. In christian countries islamic people are free to profess their faith and reunite in mosques whenever they want. These atrocities damage "prophet" Mohammed´s image 100 times more then a Pope statement.
September 18, 200618 yr I´ve heard they killed a nun somewhere... Must be awful to be a christian, specially a clergymen, in the islamic countries. In christian countries islamic people are free to profess their faith and reunite in mosques whenever they want. These atrocities damage "prophet" Mohammed´s image 100 times more then a Pope statement. just shows that what the pope ''said'' is probably true. ignorant, selfish t****.
September 18, 200618 yr just shows that what the pope ''said'' is probably true. ignorant, selfish t****. Yeah, and I keep forgetting just how 'reasonable' the Catholic fukkin' church is.... <_< Still denying that Birth Control and use of condoms is actually a GOOD THING and prevents the spread of STIs as well as unwanted pregnancies that exacerbates poverty in overpopulated Catholic zones such as Central and South America..... Oh, and ask Dan Brown, Martin Scorcese, the Monty Python team and the producers of the Jerry Springer musical how 'reasonable' these fanatics were when they were being accused of "blasphemy"...... Oh, and, erm, there is the small point that fanatical pro-armageddon Christians are now beginning to hold and exert more and more influence on US politics..... Erm, how many nuclear warheads does the US have again.....? Enough to blow up the world about 100 times over innit....? A little more of a potentially serious threat than Abdul and his rucksack on the tube I reckon...... But, hey, that's just me..... Let's not pretend that Christianity = Civilised.....
September 18, 200618 yr yh, because i really did happen to mention the catholic church didnt i :rolleyes:
September 18, 200618 yr Yeah, and I keep forgetting just how 'reasonable' the Catholic fukkin' church is.... <_< Still denying that Birth Control and use of condoms is actually a GOOD THING and prevents the spread of STIs as well as unwanted pregnancies that exacerbates poverty in overpopulated Catholic zones such as Central and South America..... Oh, and ask Dan Brown, Martin Scorcese, the Monty Python team and the producers of the Jerry Springer musical how 'reasonable' these fanatics were when they were being accused of "blasphemy"...... Oh, and, erm, there is the small point that fanatical pro-armageddon Christians are now beginning to hold and exert more and more influence on US politics..... Erm, how many nuclear warheads does the US have again.....? Enough to blow up the world about 100 times over innit....? A little more of a potentially serious threat than Abdul and his rucksack on the tube I reckon...... But, hey, that's just me..... Let's not pretend that Christianity = Civilised..... absolutely scott..... i believe theres as much to worry about the 'end timers' in america as there is any muslim sect, if not more..... them fanatical christians lobbying for armageddon, welcoming the use of nukes ffs, because they think jesus will come and save them.... christ almighty.... just who here is the mad extremists?....
September 19, 200618 yr Yeah, and I keep forgetting just how 'reasonable' the Catholic fukkin' church is.... <_< Still denying that Birth Control and use of condoms is actually a GOOD THING and prevents the spread of STIs as well as unwanted pregnancies that exacerbates poverty in overpopulated Catholic zones such as Central and South America..... Oh, and ask Dan Brown, Martin Scorcese, the Monty Python team and the producers of the Jerry Springer musical how 'reasonable' these fanatics were when they were being accused of "blasphemy"...... Oh, and, erm, there is the small point that fanatical pro-armageddon Christians are now beginning to hold and exert more and more influence on US politics..... Erm, how many nuclear warheads does the US have again.....? Enough to blow up the world about 100 times over innit....? A little more of a potentially serious threat than Abdul and his rucksack on the tube I reckon...... But, hey, that's just me..... Let's not pretend that Christianity = Civilised..... Dan Brown is still alive. If he had written a similar book about Mohammed he would have been exploded ages ago... Don´t compare civilized protests to criminal actions. If we were in an islamic society your comments on religion would already be enough to bring you death. "Pro-armagedon" christians are not catholic, but mainly penthecostal and other "new" christian denominations. The Catholic Church still denies Birth Control, which I think is stupid, but they will not explode you and your family if you don´t do what they preach. Jesus is much more criticized then Mohammed, not because Mohammed was a better person, but simply because you´ll be killed if you criticize Mohammed, and if you criticize Jesus, at worst, you´ll see church goers protesting at your door. If christians had the same reactions as muslims whenever Jesus or virgin Mary is criticized, people like Dan Brown would already have exploded, and you wouldn´t be able to go careless to the cinema with your friends watch the Da Vinci Code, fearless of not being able to leave the place alive. Joseph Stalin also killed millions in Russia, as Fidel Castro in Cuba, and they´re both atheists, in atheist countries (instead of non-religious country, which is a different thing), which proves atheism isn´t necessarily "civilized", or the bright side of humanity.
September 19, 200618 yr Dan Brown is still alive. If he had written a similar book about Mohammed he would have been exploded ages ago... Don´t compare civilized protests to criminal actions. If we were in an islamic society your comments on religion would already be enough to bring you death. "Pro-armagedon" christians are not catholic, but mainly penthecostal and other "new" christian denominations. The Catholic Church still denies Birth Control, which I think is stupid, but they will not explode you and your family if you don´t do what they preach. Jesus is much more criticized then Mohammed, not because Mohammed was a better person, but simply because you´ll be killed if you criticize Mohammed, and if you criticize Jesus, at worst, you´ll see church goers protesting at your door. If christians had the same reactions as muslims whenever Jesus or virgin Mary is criticized, people like Dan Brown would already have exploded, and you wouldn´t be able to go careless to the cinema with your friends watch the Da Vinci Code, fearless of not being able to leave the place alive. Joseph Stalin also killed millions in Russia, as Fidel Castro in Cuba, and they´re both atheists, in atheist countries (instead of non-religious country, which is a different thing), which proves atheism isn´t necessarily "civilized", or the bright side of humanity. Yeah, but it disturbs me that you and otherwise intelligent people are coming down on the side of the ruddy Catholic Church and the Christian faith in general against Islam; sorry, but they're as bad as each other to me. Stalin was a tin-pot dictator, a sociopath, and where is your evidence that Fidel Castro killed 'millions' like Stalin did. If Castro had killed millions of people, there'd be nobody left alive in Cuba :lol: :lol: .... And if you think that Batista was any less brutal than Castro (quite the opposite in fact, Batista was infinitely MORE brutal, and was propped up by the Catholic Church in Cuba by the way.....) then frankly you're living in cloud cuckoo land... Oh, and there's the small matter of Pope Pius the XII who APPEASED THE FUKKIN' NAZIS!!!!!! :angry: :angry: Just ask any Jewish survivor of the Holocaust and the Concentration Camps what they think of the fukkin' Vatican..... I want to see a world which is built upon strong Humanist values the likes of which were espoused by the French Existentialists (people such as Sartre, Baudrillard, etc) who rejected organised religion in all its forms when the horrors of WW2 were finally became known. How the hell can a 'merciful god' exist when you see the horrors of Belsen and Auschwitz....? Get real....
September 19, 200618 yr Yeah, but it disturbs me that you and otherwise intelligent people are coming down on the side of the ruddy Catholic Church and the Christian faith in general against Islam; sorry, but they're as bad as each other to me. I´m not on the side of the Catholic Church, I just said that I agree 100% with what the pope says, and catholicism is nowhere near as brutal as fundamentalist islam. (Well, you can talk about the Middle Ages, but here we go, I´m talking about today). Stalin was a tin-pot dictator, a sociopath, and where is your evidence that Fidel Castro killed 'millions' like Stalin did. If Castro had killed millions of people, there'd be nobody left alive in Cuba .... You are right, but the "millions" part I meant about Stalin only, Castro is a more moderate murderer. Oh, and there's the small matter of Pope Pius the XII who APPEASED THE FUKKIN' NAZIS!!!!!! I don´t know about the supposed relation between the church and nazism, but it sounds like an hoax to me. Even if there was some kind of "support" it comes nothing close of deliberately killing people. The Church is not a militar institution, they cannot fight against dictactors, Hitler was fully suported by the German population, which is 75% non-catholic. The Catholic Church has minimal influence in Germany. Just ask any Jewish survivor of the Holocaust and the Concentration Camps what they think of the fukkin' Vatican..... And if you just pronounce the world "muslim" to a jew he´ll probably run and hide. I want to see a world which is built upon strong Humanist values the likes of which were espoused by the French Existentialists (people such as Sartre, Baudrillard, etc) who rejected organised religion in all its forms when the horrors of WW2 were finally became known. How the hell can a 'merciful god' exist when you see the horrors of Belsen and Auschwitz....? Get real.... It´s a nice dream, but only a dream, it will never happen. It´s much easier when it comes to books and philosophers then when it comes to real life. Look at the perfect world imagined by Marx and compare it to the reality of comunist countries? Look at the dream of ilumisnism and compare it to the death cause by the French revolution? And blaming God for human acts and omissions is not a very nice thing. We should spend more time combating the evil then searching for its causes.
September 19, 200618 yr We should spend more time combating the evil then searching for its causes. that would be god almighty himself, who being the creator of everything must have allowed 'evil' to exist... a small but often overlooked fact that christians seem content to ignore.... typical.
September 19, 200618 yr This is an human way to treat women: http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/garbage.jpg This is a fair punition for a woman who is not obedient to her husband: http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/girlacid2.jpg This is a peaceful way to preach your religion: http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/nickolas.jpg And a good way to spread peace: http://www.dantas.com/realidadebr/rn/muculmana/imagens/m04042004/paljihad.jpg
September 19, 200618 yr that would be god almighty himself, who being the creator of everything must have allowed 'evil' to exist... a small but often overlooked fact that christians seem content to ignore.... typical. Well, imagine a world where evil was not allowed in any form. We would be basically trees. What makes us human is the possibility of chosing between good or bad. Otherwise there would be no need for heaven cause we would already be in it.
September 19, 200618 yr In the words of Tom Araya - RELIGION IS HATE RELIGION IS FEAR RELIGION IS WAR RELIGION IS RAPE RELIGION'S OBSCENE RELIGION'S A WHORE Kerry King actually ;)
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