To be honest, I could do exactly the same thing you've done to prove the strength of "The Open Door" over "Fallen".. Clever bits of editing and quoting doesn't make the argument true (you could probably extend this principle to literature and somehow 'prove' that Barbara Cartland is a better author than Emily Bronte or Jane Austen. I think we all know that this simply isnt the fact..), you're taking parts of lyrics out of their wider context..... Like Natalie says, you have to see the bigger picture and analyze things in their proper context... And the bigger picture clearly marks out "The Open Door" as being the far stronger album both lyrically and musically...

I was not comparing the specific parts, I used bits of every song simply to show how different the actual WRITING is - notice how I didn't compare MI to Lithium. The style. The clever, sohpisticated Ben Moody type of writing is gone. That's clearly shown in Lacrymosa, which is just OK but too simple "Now that you're gone, I feel like myslf again". Where are the metaphors? I can't imagine Fallen having a horrid lyric such as "You never call me when you're sober".

 

I'm a huge Evanescence fan and I liked the album a lot, but right now I'm beginning to like the songs less. I liked the beats and everything after the first listen but songs die preety fast when they have no subtance. TOD does have subtance compared to today's music, but for Evanescence? Ben Moody is missing, unfortunately. I personally believe Origin had the best lyrics, TOD really pales in comparison. I listen to Fallen and Origin almost daily to this day, and not sick of them yet. TOD is great but it's getting boring to me because I can't relate to the songs and that simple writing. Even if I wasn't haunted by someone (as she sings on Fallen) there were enough lines that gave the song a double meaning that could relate to everyone. I don't think about the lyrics when I listen to TOD, (well, half the cd) it's like listening to a Britney song.

 

The messages are far less intense as well. "If you love me, then let go of me"? Avril Lavigne could come up with that. I prefer listening to intense writing like Everybody's Fool instead of hearing Amy complain about how former fans are so cruelly mean.

Edited November 20, 200618 yr by Filthy or Gorgeous

That's exactly how I see it too. Lyrics aren't neccessarily about writing the most complex and metaphorical words (although when done well, something amazing can be created), it's about getting a message across to the audience. As Natalie said, you can delve into the lyrics on 'The Open Door' and find so much.

 

For example, 'Good Enough' is amazing lyrically because it's relatively simple, but amazingly deep. The line 'So take care what you ask of me / 'Cause I can't say no' implies to me that she wants her current boyfriend to propose, and that's what makes it so damn beautiful.

 

Maybe I look too deeply into things, but I really do think 'The Open Door' is lyrically superior to 'Fallen'.

Sure, it doesn't NEED metaphors if it's so great already. However, the TOD writing makes the songs harder to relate to. TOD is so specific and simple lyrically. Of course, by saying specific and lyrically - I'm talking Evanescence levels. Not PCD. Metaphors don't matter as long as the writing is sophisticated.

 

By the way, I am not talking about the entire TOD. Just like 6-7 songs that could have been so much better had Ben Moody helped with them.

Edited November 20, 200618 yr by Filthy or Gorgeous

It might seem simple on the surface, but in my eyes when you really analyse the meanings with the words in all makes sense and it all comes alive in the most beautiful and amazing way possible.

 

I'm tired now so I won't go into now but tomorrow I'll prepare for another long Evanescence essay by me. My favourite things in the world to write!

Yes, TOD makes sense. It's just not written in a way a lot of people can relate to. Again Lacrymosa is the best example to my posts.

 

Looking forward to read your essay.

Ben Moody is missing,

 

Ben Moody..? Would this be the same Ben Moody who turned the band from a more musically sophisticated path into cliched, teen-angst-ridden Nu Metal cr@p masquerading as 'Goth' with its pitiful, second-hand Trent Reznor-isms.....? Would this be the same Ben Moody that's whoring himself around as a session-muso-for-hire to just about any bland pop act who'll have him....?

 

 

Ben Moody..? Would this be the same Ben Moody who turned the band from a more musically sophisticated path into cliched, teen-angst-ridden Nu Metal cr@p masquerading as 'Goth' with its pitiful, second-hand Trent Reznor-isms.....? Would this be the same Ben Moody that's whoring himself around as a session-muso-for-hire to just about any bland pop act who'll have him....?

Yes, you just described Ben Moody's image. I don't care about him as a person. He's very talented. Nothing Amy wrote on TOD is as impressive as Breathe No More or the other songs they did together, at least in my opinion. You don't have to like him to see he's an incredible writer, no less than Amy.

 

Like I said, just read the lyrics to Lacrymosa and compare them to any, and I mean any, song from Fallen. It's a simple break-up song that your typical pop/rock act could release tomorrow. That song might even be too good for Avril. Same goes for Weight Of The World which is a such a shallow song that should have never been written. Waste of great melody. I'd rather hear "teen-angst-ridden songs" over hearing Amy complain about past fans...boohoo?

 

OK, so what song on TOD do YOU think is better or as good as Breathe No More and Understanding? I really wanna know cause you're underestimating a great (maybe the best in the band) writer.

Edited November 20, 200618 yr by Filthy or Gorgeous

Yes, you just described Ben Moody's image. I don't care about him as a person. He's very talented. Nothing Amy wrote on TOD is as impressive as Breathe No More or the other songs they did together, at least in my opinion. You don't have to like him to see he's an incredible writer, no less than Amy.

 

Like I said, just read the lyrics to Lacrymosa and compare them to any, and I mean any, song from Fallen. It's a simple break-up song that your typical pop/rock act could release tomorrow. That song might even be too good for Avril. Same goes for Weight Of The World which is a such a shallow song that should have never been written. Waste of great melody. I'd rather hear "teen-angst-ridden songs" over hearing Amy complain about past fans...boohoo?

 

OK, so what song on TOD do YOU think is better or as good as Breathe No More and Understanding? I really wanna know cause you're underestimating a great (maybe the best in the band) writer.

 

As soon as I heard TOD all the way through I saw it as being a far stronger album than "Fallen"... It's the whole deal for me, not just one or two particular songs... It is a far more mature and deeply personal work than "Fallen" which was, as I said just sounded like a lot of sub-Reznor 'goffick' whining about being 'oh-so-tortured', and the music itself was somewhat weak and very generic Nu Metal... "Bring Me To Life" in particular sounded like some sort of abortive attempt to marry Lacuna Coil to Linkin Park, with the lousy 'rapping' and everything (jeez, why not just get the Linkin Park guy to do guest vocals instead of someone doing a second rate impression..?)....

 

I have zero respect for Moody and his whoring around with pop acts which seriously damages his credibility in my eyes (It would be a bit like Steve Vai after leaving Whitesnake touring with someone like Cliff Richard or summat); if he's such a creative guy, then he should be going his own path, forging a solo career or forming a new band instead of being this session muso to all and sundry... He's shown me precisely no reason why I should have any respect for him as an artist....

As far as "Call Me When You're Sober" is concerned, I consider that to be the weakest song on the album...

Amy wrote Breathe No More by herself so that kind of screws your theory about what a great writer Ben is, that song was not co-written with Ben. And Ben refers to Understanding as 'Cheesy 7 Minute Goth Anthem'. Personally I agree that Ben made everything far too commercial. He wrote what would go down well, he wrote what he thought people would like, he didn't let himself come out through his writing. He took hardly any risks and what's the fun in that?! I have zero tolerance for him as a person which probably reflects in what I think of him as an artist but I still don't rank him highly in the slightest. There's no way he was ever the best writer in the band - that's Amy, always has been, always will be.

 

Weight of The World is actually about Amy looking back on the past and the past album and saying everything that was written on there isn't her anymore "I won't be held down by who I used to be". It's not complaining about past fans in the slightest - if she did that all the time there would be no one left to buy the albums!

 

I'm going to use 'Like You' as an example for the point I'm trying to make about TOD -

 

I long to be like you, sis

lie cold in the ground like you did

there's room inside for two and I'm not grieving for you

and as we lay in silent bliss

I know you remember me

I long to be like you

 

It doesn't get any more lyrically powerful and emotional than that. I don't understand how anyone who has lost someone cannot relate to those few lines. It's absolutely ******* beautiful and it doesn't get any deeper, it doesn't need anything other than feelings to make it what it is, it doesn't need to be complex or sophisticated because certain lines like make everything complete. There's no gimicks, there's no smoke, no hidden fears or feelings it's just straight from where it should be. The words are really blunt but sometimes that's what you need to write about something so traumatic.

Edited November 20, 200618 yr by NatalieMT

Amy wrote Breathe No More? I remember reading she co-wrote it.

 

"Like You" is great. The second verse sounds like something from Fallen. I don't think the lyrics are all that simple. Your Star, All That I'm Living For, Lithium and Cloud Nine are also preety strong, but the rest really lack something. Again, for Evanescence levels.

 

Aside from Like You, I don't see how Amy took risks with the themes, except a few songs.

 

And about WOTW: Amy said it herself the song is about dealing with fans' expectations. Not something I personally care about.

 

As for Bring Me To Life, it had awesome lyrics but yes, it was too commercial. I know Ben Moody likes to make everything commercial but he's a great writer so I don't mind. "Going Under" shows a lot more emotion than "Sweet Sacrifice" when both of them talk about the same thing. That's the best example I could give.

Edited November 20, 200618 yr by Filthy or Gorgeous

Yes Amy wrote Breathe No More, if you have the Anywhere But Home live album or the Elektra soundtrack you would see this.

 

Going Under is actually about being stuck and consumed by someone powerful (Ben abusing Amy anyone...? :() and Sweet Sacrifice is about not being fearful and not wanting people to save you it's saying fear isn't real it's only something you imagine. Therefore not the same thing. Infact the opposite.

 

I disagree when you say some of the tracks on Fallen were more emotional, the only thing that could indicate that is My Immortal but that was a Ben orientated song and Amy has said that she dislikes how the band are always associated with My Immortal because that song is not what they're about. See how everyone is moving on from Ben, he was a worthless asset in my opinion, I for one am glad he's gone...I don't know why people are obsessed with the album being or sounding like Fallen in anyway.

 

And with the risks thing - TOD isn't about hurt or being sad, like Fallen was, it's about being yourself but being happy and letting go of the past. It's a huge risk for Amy to say to herself "I'm gonna let it go" at the end of Lithium, it was a huge risk to include Good Enough as Amy put it "her happy song" and it's always been special to her to include a song about her sister on each album in this case Like You but instead of being like Hello - coming from a different perspective of the death of her sister. All in all the album stepped away from what Evanescence were renound to be and that is the biggest risk of all.

 

 

As for Bring Me To Life, it had awesome lyrics but yes, it was too commercial. I know Ben Moody likes to make everything commercial but he's a great writer so I don't mind. "

 

Sorry mate, but writing something just to 'shift units' and be commercial does NOT make someone a good writer or a good artist, by that logic it would mean that people like Busted or McFly would be high art!! Ben has no credibility because he is a fukkin' sell out, simple as. Evanescence without him are a far better band IMO... It's not as if he's a particularly good guitarist either, the guys they have playing now for my money are way better than Ben, the riffs are more complex and better defined and they actually seem to know a lot more than three chords.... :lol: Even the drummer is allowed to play more complex rhythms and sometimes even double-bass drum beats.....

 

The overall production on TOD is a hell of a lot better, deffo sounding more like the Rock band they should be and not the rather weedy pop/rock sound which punctuated "Fallen"

Yes Amy wrote Breathe No More, if you have the Anywhere But Home live album or the Elektra soundtrack you would see this.

 

Going Under is actually about being stuck and consumed by someone powerful (Ben abusing Amy anyone...? :() and Sweet Sacrifice is about not being fearful and not wanting people to save you it's saying fear isn't real it's only something you imagine. Therefore not the same thing. Infact the opposite.

 

I disagree when you say some of the tracks on Fallen were more emotional, the only thing that could indicate that is My Immortal but that was a Ben orientated song and Amy has said that she dislikes how the band are always associated with My Immortal because that song is not what they're about. See how everyone is moving on from Ben, he was a worthless asset in my opinion, I for one am glad he's gone...I don't know why people are obsessed with the album being or sounding like Fallen in anyway.

 

And with the risks thing - TOD isn't about hurt or being sad, like Fallen was, it's about being yourself but being happy and letting go of the past. It's a huge risk for Amy to say to herself "I'm gonna let it go" at the end of Lithium, it was a huge risk to include Good Enough as Amy put it "her happy song" and it's always been special to her to include a song about her sister on each album in this case Like You but instead of being like Hello - coming from a different perspective of the death of her sister. All in all the album stepped away from what Evanescence were renound to be and that is the biggest risk of all.

I see what you mean but there's no excuse for Lacrymosa, Lose Control, Call Me When You're Sober and Weight Of The World. Avril Lavigne is better than that.

 

I think "Sweet Sacrifice" is similar to Going Under, it's talking about an abusive relationship ("You love to hate me, don't you honey?" "Daily defeated by you, just when I thought I'd reached the bottom") and "seeing the light" later ("Fear is only in our minds" "I won't be broken again").

 

I don't think think Fallen was that depressing. Tourniquet and Haunted were negative but real and got you in the mood, and they were positive "Something waits for you to breathe again".

 

I think Amy is VERY talented, I love her. But, I think that when she tries to write like she's in a strong position it just doesn't work as well, maybe because it's less genuine. That's the difference I see between Going Under and Sweet Sacrifice. Instead of just saying "I'm gonna forget your name" she describes the relationship perfectly.

 

OD does have its good moments lyrically, Lithium like you said, ATILF, CN, LY, YS, etc. I just like songs I can relate to, not CMWYS, Lose Control, Weight Of The World. I think it would have been better if Amy had let us interpret WOTW the way we want to.

 

Grimly Fiendish, you always go to completely different subjects when I talk about lyrics alone. Ben is a sellout, you may not like his production, but I was talking about lyrics. I think you're biased but okay.

Edited November 20, 200618 yr by Filthy or Gorgeous

Seriously you're basing your opinions on your interpretations of the lyrics which are at times factually incorrect. Until you move away from that you're never going to understand TOD.

 

And as for 'getting you in the mood' that exact same mood that Amy is now trying to move away from...? The reason she doesn't describe things like she used to is because she's not who she was then, that was like 4 years ago, things change. I don't know how you can say it's less genuine, Amy is in a very strong position right now why doesn't she deserve to let the world know about that.

 

Just because you can't relate to the songs doesn't mean the lyrics aren't any good. I mean I've never been stalked but I can still understand Snow White Queen.

"Like You" is great. The second verse sounds like something from Fallen. I don't think the lyrics are all that simple. Your Star, All That I'm Living For, Lithium and Cloud Nine are also preety strong, but the rest really lack something. Again, for Evanescence levels.

 

'Your Star'? I thought that was rather weak and could've easily been made spectacular. There wasn't enough focus on the metaphor of the 'star', in my opinion. I adore the lyrics, but there could've been more.

 

And no mention of 'The Only One'? Personally I think that's probably one of the strongest on the album. That may be because I can relate to it, but I find the lyrics to be quite hard-hitting.

Edited November 20, 200618 yr by Yoshimo

I see what you mean but there's no excuse for Lacrymosa, Lose Control, Call Me When You're Sober and Weight Of The World. Avril Lavigne is better than that.

 

I think Amy is VERY talented, I love her. But, I think that when she tries to write like she's in a strong position it just doesn't work as well, maybe because it's less genuine.

 

Avril Laveigne??? Get outta town.... Dont even compare the two... Avril couldn't write anything like as emotionally or musically complex as the songs on TOD has to offer... I wouldn't give Avril drivespace on my i-Pod....

 

As for this idea that Amy somehow has to be all 'cliched, depressed little goth girl sitting alone in her room cutting herself while listening to Nine Inch Nails' in order to write good material, again, I dont really believe that for a second... Seems to me you dont want her to move on as a person or as an artist and wanted "Fallen" part two...

Seems to me you dont want her to move on as a person or as an artist and wanted "Fallen" part two...

 

Exactly! Couldn't have put it any better.

 

 

Seriously you're basing your opinions on your interpretations of the lyrics which are at times factually incorrect. Until you move away from that you're never going to understand TOD.

 

And as for 'getting you in the mood' that exact same mood that Amy is now trying to move away from...? The reason she doesn't describe things like she used to is because she's not who she was then, that was like 4 years ago, things change. I don't know how you can say it's less genuine, Amy is in a very strong position right now why doesn't she deserve to let the world know about that.

 

Just because you can't relate to the songs doesn't mean the lyrics aren't any good. I mean I've never been stalked but I can still understand Snow White Queen.

That's the thing, I understand TOD just fine. :lol: It's all written out... "Out on your own/Cold and alone again/Can this be what you really wanted, baby?" instead of lyrics that are harder and more interesting to interpret, like "Breathe No More" which is amazing. The simplicity works for "Like You" because it's still a lot like Fallen, but doesn't work for other songs.

 

What interpretion that I made was factually incorrect? Track #3, Weight Of The World is - according to Amy - a song about the pressure the fans put on you. Let's make a random comparison to track #3 on Fallen. WOTW is well-produced but lacks those intense lyrics.

 

I love TOD, but when I put on Fallen... I get disappointed in TOD. All in all, I really want more lyrics like Origin. Origin was less complicated than Fallen but it was great. SS, CMWYS, WOTW, LC mean nothing to me.

 

If it's impossible to relate to a big amount of songs on one album, when they could've been relateable with more thought into them - it does say something about the lyrics' quality. Can I relate to being a sad celebrity? No, but EF is written in a way it could fit to many, many situations - unlike other songs that are just too specific. Like You" is very specific as well but it's written so beautifully that it doesn't matter to me.

 

Different strokes like I said, I guess. I think Amy is a great songwriter when she wants to be. TOD has some good lyrics but some could've been so much more and made it a perfect album.

Edited November 21, 200618 yr by Filthy or Gorgeous

'Your Star'? I thought that was rather weak and could've easily been made spectacular. There wasn't enough focus on the metaphor of the 'star', in my opinion. I adore the lyrics, but there could've been more.

 

And no mention of 'The Only One'? Personally I think that's probably one of the strongest on the album. That may be because I can relate to it, but I find the lyrics to be quite hard-hitting.

I took it as a song about God, so the star was already a metaphor to me. It could've been better, yes, but some lines are so strong there that I can't help but LOVE it. Especially the "all my fears turn to rage" part. Incredible.

 

I haven't interprted The Only One. I get this concept of a life-after-death thing in my head when I listen to it. :huh:

Edited November 21, 200618 yr by Filthy or Gorgeous

Avril Laveigne??? Get outta town.... Dont even compare the two... Avril couldn't write anything like as emotionally or musically complex as the songs on TOD has to offer... I wouldn't give Avril drivespace on my i-Pod....

 

As for this idea that Amy somehow has to be all 'cliched, depressed little goth girl sitting alone in her room cutting herself while listening to Nine Inch Nails' in order to write good material, again, I dont really believe that for a second... Seems to me you dont want her to move on as a person or as an artist and wanted "Fallen" part two...

Read what I said about Going Under and Fallen. Both of them are written from a stronger point of view about the same thing, yet Going Under is a lot better. Sweet Sacrifice is a hot mess lyrically.

 

Be positive but keep it quality. Lithium is positive overall and written from a strong POV. "Lose Control" is plain garbage.

Read what I said about Going Under and Fallen. Both of them are written from a stronger point of view about the same thing, yet Going Under is a lot better. Sweet Sacrifice is a hot mess lyrically.

 

 

I will confess that "Going Under" is probably one of the few songs from "Fallen" that I can listen to and relate to instead of thinking "Cliched Teen angst"; "Everybody's Fool" and one or two others as well...

 

You have to understand I've been listening to this sort of 'tortured, angst-ridden' type stuff since I was about 14.... :lol: When it's done well (Ian Curtis, Morrissey, Thom Yorke, Kurt Cobain, Trent Reznor, Robert Smith, Maynard James Keenan, Hole, Smashing Pumpkins, etc..) the effect is both beautiful and spectacular, but when it's done badly (ie, almost every single Nu Metal and "Emo" band....) it is pitiful, dire and pathetic... When I first heard Ev circa "Origin" they were, for my mind, doing the former, with "Fallen" it slid quite horribly into the latter (mainly, I feel, because of Ben Moody's commercial, radio-friendly unit shifter instincts..) and I absolutely detested them for years because for my mind they were faking it just to sell records...

 

When I first heard 'The Open Door', I finally said "yes, this is a band that I can proudly put alongside my Smashing Pumpkins and Nine Inch Nails CDs..." - not literally of course cos I store my CDs in alphabetical order.... :lol: :lol: