but Scott... the terrorist threat you talk of, the IRA - that's over now.

 

The terrorist threat we have now comes 100% from the Muslim communities, so of course they will be under suspicion.

I don't see why everyone else has to be inconvinienced because the Olympic date clashes with Ramdan. As has been said, the Olympics takes a lot of preperation, both from those who organise it and the athletes themselves. I can see why it may cause Muslim competitors problems, but I don't see why the rest of the world should have to wait a month. If they can't compete for whatever reason, then they can't compete.

 

Of course, this is asuming that many Muslims actually see a problem with this clash, which they may not.

 

 

Of course, this is asuming that many Muslims actually see a problem with this clash, which they may not.

 

Yeah, and we dont actually know the source of these complaints anyway.... It's more than likely coming from a few random individuals who have nowt to do with Athletics, the IOC or any sports governing bodies. The press comes along and makes a mountain out of mole-hill, as usual 'cos we all know that Muslims complaining (even if it's some insignificant nobody..) makes for good copy and a nice, juicy headline....

but Scott... the terrorist threat you talk of, the IRA - that's over now.

 

The terrorist threat we have now comes 100% from the Muslim communities, so of course they will be under suspicion.

 

Yeah, but DF said ALWAYS....

 

And I dont agree that it's 100% from Muslims either, I regard what the US and UK did, and continue to do, in Iraq and Afghanistan as being State Terrorism.... "Shock and Awe", "Daisy Cutters", "Bunker Busters", illegal shipments of arms to Israel and other dictatorships = Terrorism as far as I'm concerned, just as much as Suicide bombers.... The Israelis have been committing acts of Terror upon the Palestinians and Lebanese for decades also (not just my opinion, but the opinion of most of the UN as well, but of course UN resolutions against Israel are always vetoed by guess who...).... Dress it up in the flag and it's 'Patriotism'??? Bull....

 

As someone once said "Terrorist is what the big army calls the little army"...

Re: British Muslims wearing veils...

 

I don't mean to bring up a dead topic to which people have "agreed to disagree" but I wanted to quote from this week's Economist which has an article on the topic. While not an end-all to the argument, it provides some statistics. Excuse any typos as I'm transcribing directly from the Oct 14th-20th 2006 The Economist publication.

 

"Relatively few women wear veils. Informed guessers reckon that between 10,000 (the more likely estimate) and 40,000 of Britain's 800,000 Muslim women wear one. That number seems to be increasing, though. An influx of people from Yemen and other parts of the Gulf where wearing the veil is the norm is one reason. BNut the practice is spreading beyond this group, to the 75% of British Muslims who are from Asian families. Many of those now covering up are British-born children of immigrants, whose mothers do not wear veils themselves.

 

Two main reasons are commomly given for why more young Muslims women are covering up. First, it is a political statement, an in-your-face version of a "Free Palestine" T-shirt... Second, Muslim women supposedly put on veils for reasons that blend feminism with religion. Though they are often pressed by their own families not to cover up, some choose to wear a veil out of disgust at the amount of flesh on display on television or on the high street, because they dislike being ogled by men, and because a veil makes them feel safer."

 

The article goes on do further posit that women wear veils out of choice, dependent on personality, time, and place.

 

I'll conclude with a brief anecdote - I lived in Paris in 2004 during the whole veil-banned-in-schools controversey. The French people were absolutely united in staunch support of the law. It offended a lot of Muslims (in the Middle East, not French Muslims), and the law was clearly unfairly aimed at Muslims... but at some point that fall I watched a group of schoolgirls skip out of school cheerfully. One of them stopped, put on her veil, and they all giggled and skipped away like normal schoolgirls. It seems the law has been implemented very successfully and Muslims are willingly participating in France's long established tradition of "laic" (secular) schools.

Re: British Muslims wearing veils...

 

I don't mean to bring up a dead topic to which people have "agreed to disagree" but I wanted to quote from this week's Economist which has an article on the topic. While not an end-all to the argument, it provides some statistics. Excuse any typos as I'm transcribing directly from the Oct 14th-20th 2006 The Economist publication.

 

"Relatively few women wear veils. Informed guessers reckon that between 10,000 (the more likely estimate) and 40,000 of Britain's 800,000 Muslim women wear one. That number seems to be increasing, though. An influx of people from Yemen and other parts of the Gulf where wearing the veil is the norm is one reason. BNut the practice is spreading beyond this group, to the 75% of British Muslims who are from Asian families. Many of those now covering up are British-born children of immigrants, whose mothers do not wear veils themselves.

 

Two main reasons are commomly given for why more young Muslims women are covering up. First, it is a political statement, an in-your-face version of a "Free Palestine" T-shirt... Second, Muslim women supposedly put on veils for reasons that blend feminism with religion. Though they are often pressed by their own families not to cover up, some choose to wear a veil out of disgust at the amount of flesh on display on television or on the high street, because they dislike being ogled by men, and because a veil makes them feel safer."

 

The article goes on do further posit that women wear veils out of choice, dependent on personality, time, and place.

 

I'll conclude with a brief anecdote - I lived in Paris in 2004 during the whole veil-banned-in-schools controversey. The French people were absolutely united in staunch support of the law. It offended a lot of Muslims (in the Middle East, not French Muslims), and the law was clearly unfairly aimed at Muslims... but at some point that fall I watched a group of schoolgirls skip out of school cheerfully. One of them stopped, put on her veil, and they all giggled and skipped away like normal schoolgirls. It seems the law has been implemented very successfully and Muslims are willingly participating in France's long established tradition of "laic" (secular) schools.

 

The problem with the French Law is that it's half-baked and looks the other way at Jewish skullcaps and "discreet" (whatever that means...) Crucifixes.. Sorry, but it's all or nothing for me, if you're gonna stop people wearing the veil, then ALL religious iconograpy has to be banned from State Institutions so as to not be seen playing favourites.. As a practicing Atheist, to me that would be a dream come true....

 

A good post as always Consie, well thought out and argued... :)

Scott...agree on the atheism bit...but we ARE a Christian country, don't forget....

Interesting article.

 

But if the veil is more often worn out of choice rather than to do with religion or culture, then why are people scared of being accused of racism for being against it? There are practical reasons for not wearing the veil, such as it being difficult to identify these women- an example I always heard was one with a bus pass or passport who had a picture identifying her but still wore the veil- how is anyone supposed to know it's really her? The other is it is difficult to hear someone speak when they are muffled by a veil.

 

That said, I think this idea of a nationwide ban is ridiculous. It's like that idea to ban hooded tops. It's stupid, and ultimately useless- is banning the hoodie, or the veil for that matter, going to solve or achieve anything?

Scott...agree on the atheism bit...but we ARE a Christian country, don't forget....

 

Not by choice mate, it was kinda forced on us.... We were Pagans before we were Christians, so when people talk of a "Christian Tradition" it kinda makes me laugh, as if there weren't any pre-Christian civilisations in Europe (Rome, Greece, Macedonia, to name but a few..). Besides, if our Govt is really that serious in 'the separation of church and state', well, it kinda has to be done, whether it upsets Christians or Muslims or, hell, anyone else for that matter....

 

All or nothing, there is no middle ground for me, you cant play favourites...

 

I think the Vail should be banned actually, it's alright saying about hoodies and baseball caps but you could see their face, where as with a Vail you can't, and also as Ghostwriter said about the passport they SHOULD have to remove their Vail for the passport cos that is stupid.

 

Everyone should have their own identities yes but a practical one.

I think the Vail should be banned actually, it's alright saying about hoodies and baseball caps but you could see their face, where as with a Vail you can't, and also as Ghostwriter said about the passport they SHOULD have to remove their Vail for the passport cos that is stupid.

 

Everyone should have their own identities yes but a practical one.

 

To be honest though if I saw a dozen or so kids wearing hoodies with scarves pulled up over their mouths or walking with their heads down (which many of these 'yoofs' do...) I sure as hell wouldn't be able to tell one from the other, and certainly neither would a CCTV camera... So I dont see the difference to be honest...

 

 

To be honest though if I saw a dozen or so kids wearing hoodies with scarves pulled up over their mouths or walking with their heads down (which many of these 'yoofs' do...) I sure as hell wouldn't be able to tell one from the other, and certainly neither would a CCTV camera... So I dont see the difference to be honest...

 

Well there you are then. I didn't think of the scarfs but that's because I haven't actually seen anyone do that, I really do think it should be banned, they was on about banning hoodies why not the Vail as well? I'm sorry but we should all live by the same rules, wanna live here then live by our rules, if not go back home. I know you'll bring the ones up who was born here but if that's the case they shouldn't wear it I know it's part of their heritage but they live here now. I know we ain't going to get fukking 'world peace' and sh!t but at the end of the day we can't really have people walking about just being able to see their eyes. It does have to be practical.

Well there you are then. I didn't think of the scarfs but that's because I haven't actually seen anyone do that, I really do think it should be banned, they was on about banning hoodies why not the Vail as well? I'm sorry but we should all live by the same rules, wanna live here then live by our rules, if not go back home. I know you'll bring the ones up who was born here but if that's the case they shouldn't wear it I know it's part of their heritage but they live here now. I know we ain't going to get fukking 'world peace' and sh!t but at the end of the day we can't really have people walking about just being able to see their eyes. It does have to be practical.

 

 

Well, we aint gonna have 'world peace' by dictating to people what they should do either... I dont feel comfortable about a white christian male telling a muslim woman what to wear, bottom line. I dont feel I have the right to tell people that they cant wear a veil or a hoodie, or whatever else....

 

btw, I wasnt putting up a post in favour of banning hoodies (as hideous as I personally find them..), I dont really agree with the bans in certain shopping centres...

Well, we aint gonna have 'world peace' by dictating to people what they should do either... I dont feel comfortable about a white christian male telling a muslim woman what to wear, bottom line. I dont feel I have the right to tell people that they cant wear a veil or a hoodie, or whatever else....

 

btw, I wasnt putting up a post in favour of banning hoodies (as hideous as I personally find them..), I dont really agree with the bans in certain shopping centres...

 

They must of had a reason for even considering a ban of hoodies in the first place tho. The people in shopping centers have to have that bit of security, would you allow a chav walk into a bank where you work with a cap and scarf on? I doubt you would without thinking anything suspicious Scott.

They must of had a reason for even considering a ban of hoodies in the first place tho. The people in shopping centers have to have that bit of security, would you allow a chav walk into a bank where you work with a cap and scarf on? I doubt you would without thinking anything suspicious Scott.

 

You cant just automatically assume that if someone does wear a cap that they're gonna rob the place.. I go into shops wearing a long coat, I could easily stuff a few CDs or DVDs into my inside pocket if I had the mind to ... No one's ever told me "you cant wear your long coat in here"....

 

Anyway, we're not really talking about shops, just generally on the streets and shopping centre communal areas...

 

In fact, we shouldn't really be talking about this at all, this topic's about the ruddy OLYMPICS!!! :lol: :lol:

The problem with the French Law is that it's half-baked and looks the other way at Jewish skullcaps and "discreet" (whatever that means...) Crucifixes.. Sorry, but it's all or nothing for me, if you're gonna stop people wearing the veil, then ALL religious iconograpy has to be banned from State Institutions so as to not be seen playing favourites.. As a practicing Atheist, to me that would be a dream come true....

 

A good post as always Consie, well thought out and argued... :)

 

A country where probably 70 to 90% of the people are baptized christians, but less then 10% are practicing believers. I think it´s not impossible that one day there will be more practicing muslims in Europe then practicing christians, specially on the most developed countries.

You cant just automatically assume that if someone does wear a cap that they're gonna rob the place.. I go into shops wearing a long coat, I could easily stuff a few CDs or DVDs into my inside pocket if I had the mind to ... No one's ever told me "you cant wear your long coat in here"....

 

Anyway, we're not really talking about shops, just generally on the streets and shopping centre communal areas...

 

In fact, we shouldn't really be talking about this at all, this topic's about the ruddy OLYMPICS!!! :lol: :lol:

 

No but people do, everyone gets suspicious of people at some time or another.

LOL, whats your coat got to do with it, that doesn't cover your face lol.

 

:lol: What can I say it's easy to go off topic.

Sorry, but I don´t quite understand, these women wearing veils in Britain actually use that model who covers the entire face? Here in Brazil there are very few muslims (less then 30,000 in a country of 180,000,000) but I thought ALL muslim women had to wear veil, at least the one which covers the hair. Maybe the others are just ethnic muslims but not real muslim believers/practicers?

No but people do, everyone gets suspicious of people at some time or another.

LOL, whats your coat got to do with it, that doesn't cover your face lol.

 

 

 

Doesn't cover my face, but I could certainly carry a concealed weapon in it (sawn-off shotgun, handgun..), it's got deep pockets, good for hiding things.... It's a pretty good 'shoplifters' coat.... :lol:

 

Sorry, but I don´t quite understand, these women wearing veils in Britain actually use that model who covers the entire face? Here in Brazil there are very few muslims (less then 30,000 in a country of 180,000,000) but I thought ALL muslim women had to wear veil, at least the one which covers the hair. Maybe the others are just ethnic muslims but not real muslim believers/practicers?

 

No, veils cover the whole face... The Hijab (which is basically just a headscarf that your granny would wear on a cold day..) only the head, it is not a veil....