Written by Laurie Penny, a Guardian contributor and feminist - I would give no more credit to what she wrote, than you would something by a Mail writer. :rolleyes:

 

Except a Mail writer wouldn't be able to give an overview of the politics and social activities of the last 10 years without resorting to repeating the lies of the referendum (and the editor has since changed and doesn't support those lies). I don't agree with every word in the article, but as an overview it's pretty accurate and is the sort of analysis that will come to be viewed as historically accurate. One MP posted a photo of 100 people overwhelmingly voting for a Hard Brexit at one of their pep talks. They were overwhelmingly very old and white, which is very much making the case for other side, as they won't be around to live through the long-term results of a Hard Brexit and won't be writing the history books.

 

PS a hard Brexit wasn't on the ballot, wasn't mentioned as going to happen, and nobody campaigned for it. Fact.

Except a Mail writer wouldn't be able to give an overview of the politics and social activities of the last 10 years without resorting to repeating the lies of the referendum (and the editor has since changed and doesn't support those lies). I don't agree with every word in the article, but as an overview it's pretty accurate and is the sort of analysis that will come to be viewed as historically accurate. One MP posted a photo of 100 people overwhelmingly voting for a Hard Brexit at one of their pep talks. They were overwhelmingly very old and white

 

You say that like it's a crime! :o

 

You say that like it's a crime! :o

 

No, I say that by way of illustration that they don;t care what the consequences are because they won't be around. If the pension suddenly drops as a result of Brexit cuts they'll suddenly be very unhappy about it. While they are sure that "I'm alright Jack" (which they won;t be if there are NHS cuts) they will continue to believe that they can turn the clock back to the hazy golden days of their youth when the world was marvellous, they were young & happy and all the misery they live through now as old people is the fault of the EU and foreigners, not due to life being generally more miserable when you are older, because trust me life is way better when you are younger - not necessarily easier, but definitely without so much loss, health problems, responsibilities, tragedies to cope with.

 

You only have to talk to them to know that this is true.

No, I say that by way of illustration that they don;t care what the consequences are because they won't be around.

 

So you regard it as 100% inevitable that Brexit will be as bad as doom-mongers claim?

 

Do they teach you all schadenfraude at 'Remain' school? :P

Here's something a politician said about referendums. He sums it up rather well.

 

Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgement. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against, and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting. We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and then tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it.

 

That politician was David Davis. Just goes to show that even he can talk sense occasionally.

That politician was David Davis. Just goes to show that even he can talk sense occasionally.

 

Probably just a fluke... :lol:

So you regard it as 100% inevitable that Brexit will be as bad as doom-mongers claim?

 

Do they teach you all schadenfraude at 'Remain' school? :P

 

The problem with most Brexiteers is that they dismiss all claims, regardless of the scale, and have done since long before the referendum, EVEN WHEN FACED WITH THE REALITY OF THE TRUTH AND FACTS. Be specific - what doom-mongers? What predictions? Will the world end? Not yet, but it will turn disastrous for humanity at some stage, Brexit won;t help because the UK Tory gov will opt out of anything to try and hold back global warming cos we'll be so much poorer, and cheapest options will be the order of the day, or be forced into it, because yes we will be poorer. That isn;t even a question. Everyone knows it to be true, in the UK, politics, experts, people abroad.

 

Nobody on the Leave side has made even the slightest argument using evidence that anything will be better, not immigration, not the economy, not in terms of influence, but the one area they will be better off is the rich and their tax havens will have a stranglehold on UK life without the EU there to at least force SOME sense of balance.

 

And that's why you have no arguments and have to resort to blanket group moaning about people who care about the UK and can back up why they believe things will be worse. They already are worse and we haven't left yet.

And that's why you have no arguments and have to resort to blanket group moaning about people who care about the UK

 

And you think *we* don't? :huh:

 

We merely have a different vision for the UK's future.

And you think *we* don't? :huh:

 

We merely have a different vision for the UK's future.

 

but you don't back it up. It's all pink elephants and fluffy clouds and a vague baseless optimism that everything will be fine despite hard facts staring you in the face.

 

Given it's OUR well-fare at stake we have a total right to point out all the lies, baseless claims, and problems on the horizon even if you find it tedious hearing them. If it was merely YOUR future at stake then we wouldn't give a toss and you could jump off a cliff in unison and shout "I told you so" on the way down. If you are dragging us off a cliff against our will, then there's not much that after-the-event "I told you so's" will do by way of compensation, but you just still don;t get that basic concept and try to dismiss reality because you see it as endangering your mad vision of a marvellous future that doesn''t exist and you can't in any way convincingly argue for without resorting to vague claims about "taking back control" (and then slagging off the British legal & political system when they enforce UK laws which is what you claimed you wanted).

 

The reason Brexit is a mess is because no-one thought it through, no-one planned anything, and no-one can agree on anything. Project Fear blindingly obviously true in front of our eyes for the last 3 years, so much so that all Brexiteers have completely changed their lies into "everyone knew what they were voting for" as if they have some magic telepathy superpower that can read everyone's mind and know instantly what they were voting for when they clearly hadnt a clue what they claiming and doing.

 

Still don't. Tick tock.

 

but you don't back it up.

 

We have absolutely no obligation to you to back it up, yet you still keep asking - all we were obliged to do was mark an X in the Leave box.

We have absolutely no obligation to you to back it up, yet you still keep asking - all we were obliged to do was mark an X in the Leave box.

Which, as I've said before, is precisely why a referendum was such a stupid idea on the first place. None of the Leave voters feel under any obligation to back up their decision. They just treat it in the same way they would a decision over whether to have tea or coffee at breakfast time. The difference here is that we are all having to live with the consequences of their decision.

Which, as I've said before, is precisely why a referendum was such a stupid idea on the first place. None of the Leave voters feel under any obligation to back up their decision. They just treat it in the same way they would a decision over whether to have tea or coffee at breakfast time. The difference here is that we are all having to live with the consequences of their decision.

 

How is that any different to if Remain had won?

How is that any different to if Remain had won?

Can you still not see the difference between a vote for the status quo and a vote for an undefined radical change?

Can you still not see the difference between a vote for the status quo and a vote for an undefined radical change?

 

Nothing to do with that.

 

My point was merely that, whoever won, the losing side would have to put up with a situation they found objectionable.

Nothing to do with that.

 

My point was merely that, whoever won, the losing side would have to put up with a situation they found objectionable.

 

At least people voting Remain hd some idea of what they were voting for, i.e. no change in our relationship with the EU. The same cannot be said of Leave voters. That's the difference. It really is that simple.

How is that any different to if Remain had won?

 

The difference is we can and do back up our arguments.

At least people voting Remain hd some idea of what they were voting for, i.e. no change in our relationship with the EU. The same cannot be said of Leave voters. That's the difference. It really is that simple.

t

 

That doesn't say much for how the public regarded the EU then, that even despite that, people thought the status quo was the worse option. :thinking:

 

The difference is we can and do back up our arguments.

 

Oh, for goodness sake - how many times is that going to be repeated here??

Every time you do not back up your argument.

 

That doesn't say much for how the public regarded the EU then, that even despite that, people thought the status quo was the worse option. :thinking:

 

And yet, that doesn't mean that the correct response is to leave the thing with no plan. When one doesn't like their job, one does not abandon it and set up one's own business without a business plan.

 

As Tusk said, and I'm astonished it's taken so long for EU leaders to say anything like this, there is indeed a special place in hell for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely. It's reckless endangerment of all and there was absolutely nothing like that in the Remain situation.

And yet, that doesn't mean that the correct response is to leave the thing with no plan. When one doesn't like their job, one does not abandon it and set up one's own business without a business plan.

 

But that's not the Brexit *voters* fault - it wasn't our job, it was the government's/civil service's, yet we are constantly getting blamed for it. :(

Edited February 8, 20196 yr by vidcapper

But that's not the Brexit *voters* fault - it wasn't our job, it was the government's/civil service's, yet we are constantly getting blamed for it. :(

 

I don't disagree with you there. I didn't vote for Brexit but the fact we are in the state we are in now is down to the government and their overwhelming lack of any advanced planning whatsoever.