I am not pro Islam, there are many things about their religion I find abhorrent such as their views towards homosexuality, their treatment of women, their treatment of animals and much more, its not about defending Islam its about defending human rights with regards what people can and can't wear.

 

And again with regards Islam opinions towards jews again that is just extremists, I hate extremists in ALL religions be they christian, muslim, catholic or whatever, the muslims I know (20-30 of them) have no issues whatsoever with jews and I don't want to label everyone in a religion because of a few extremists.

 

The world would be a better place if ALL religions were scrapped

 

And that is exactly how I feel about it as well mate... I dont hold with what the religion itself says, I dont have much truck with the Muslim Council of Great Britain, but what I absolutely HATE is the way that the media and politicians are targetting one particular ethnic minority in this country... I'm defending the rights of the people, not the relgion itself....

 

I watched a documentary about the Muslim community in Holland. It was screened just after the murder of Theo van Gogh and they were interviewing various Muslim families who lived in the sprawling suburbs of Amsterdam. In effect they lived in a Muslim ghetto. The housing schemes were basically populated by North Africans with very few indigenous Dutch anywhere nearby.

 

These families were being asked about integration and what they thought could be done to help the Muslim Community to integrate more with the rest of the population (so to build understanding between the communities and avoid similar religious murders).

I was expecting them to go for the usual suspects (alleviation of poverty, positive discrimination in the workplace etc etc). But they didn't. To a man (and I think it was only men who spoke), they said they had no desire to integrate with , as they saw it, decadent Westerners. They said they didn't consider themselves Dutch or European but Muslim. And they wanted to live in their own self-contained Muslim society in Holland, ideally following Muslim Sharia law.

Is that the prevalent view of Dutch Muslims? I've no idea.

It´s ridiculous, and he should move to Arabia.

 

But if it is, is that a view a Western liberal democracy can accept? Does a Western Govt just say, well, ok then, you may live in this country but we as a State will accept your complete isolation. You may cut yourself off completely, live as your religion dictates, follow your own laws.

It can be done. Just look at the Amish Community in America.

But the Amish comunity is subject to the state law, they don´t have their own law. If an Amish kills somebody, he would be judged like any other USA citizen. But this guy on the interview says he wanted them to implement Sharia as their law, well, if they want to live like animals go to Arabia, a civilized country can´t accept a law like that.

 

Its discrimination against a particular religion therefore as far as I am concerned its a racially motivated decision to try and claw some votes from extremists and neo nazi's in the forthcoming election, each religion has their own traditions, muslims despise the wearing of short skirts and of people wearing no shirt yet they respect the right in the west for people to wear short skirts and to wear no shirt in the summer so if they are putting up with something that is offensive to them then why can't we put up with something that might be offensive to some of us ?

Yeah, they respect it in the WEST, where they are a minority, would you like to wear short skirts in Arabia? Or walk with a cross on your neck in Afghanistan?

if they want to live like animals go to Arabia, a civilized country can´t accept a law like that.

 

Bear in mind that totally fukked up things happen in so-called 'civilised' countries too JJN, wasn't so long ago that your 'wonderful' Brazilian authorities were turning a blind eye to (and in some cases, taking an active part in) murders of street children in Rio and Sao Paulo, so dont make out like things are fundamentally that great in your own backyard....

 

And from what I've seen of the extremities of rich and poor in Brazil, the people who live on the lowest rung of Brazilian society pretty much are forced to live like animals because the rich b/astards who run your country dont give a fukk.... <_<

Yeah, they respect it in the WEST, where they are a minority, would you like to wear short skirts in Arabia? Or walk with a cross on your neck in Afghanistan?

 

I agree that they do not have the same tolerance in places like Saudi compared with over here, my sister worked out in Saudi as a nurse and she was politely advised by her bosses that it would be in her interests that she do not wear a skirt above the knee as it would be frowned upon by the local islamics and she was advised not to wear certain other types of clothing too, it was not a direct order but her bosses made it clear to her that it would be a security risk her going out in short skirts, likewise no christian worship of any sort was allowed except internally within her compound of residence, there was no christian churches like there is mosques in the UK etc so indeed there is less of a tolerance of christianity in Saudi than there is of Islam in the UK but that is their culture and people going out to live there need to respect that likewise muslims living in the UK should respect our rights and our culture which by and large I believe they do (pork and alcohol is freely available for instance and people are allowed to wear short skirts), burqas are legal though so I respect people's right to wear them

I agree that they do not have the same tolerance in places like Saudi compared with over here, my sister worked out in Saudi as a nurse and she was politely advised by her bosses that it would be in her interests that she do not wear a skirt above the knee as it would be frowned upon by the local islamics and she was advised not to wear certain other types of clothing too, it was not a direct order but her bosses made it clear to her that it would be a security risk her going out in short skirts, likewise no christian worship of any sort was allowed except internally within her compound of residence, there was no christian churches like there is mosques in the UK etc so indeed there is less of a tolerance of christianity in Saudi than there is of Islam in the UK but that is their culture and people going out to live there need to respect that likewise muslims living in the UK should respect our rights and our culture which by and large I believe they do (pork and alcohol is freely available for instance and people are allowed to wear short skirts), burqas are legal though so I respect people's right to wear them

 

I would say in general though, that when Brits or Yanks go abroad to live, they do NOT accept or give much respect to the local customs and culture (I feel mainly because of the whole "Empire" thing, it seems to be hardwired into our genes to think we're somehow 'better' than anyone else)... They generally make no attempt to integrate and stick to their own community; look at ex-pat communities in Spain or Hong Kong for example, how many of these people are actually learning Spanish/Chinese and are integrating into the local culture...? Many areas in Spain in particular are like 'little Britains' with British bars, restaurants and food shops, so criticising immigrants for not 'integrating' properly here is a tad hypocritical when the majority of us are hardly that keen to do it ourselves when we go abroad to live...

 

..And while there are certain restrictions placed upon Western workers in Saudi Arabia, I would still maintain on balance they enjoy more freedom than the general Saudi population....

I would say in general though, that when Brits or Yanks go abroad to live, they do NOT accept or give much respect to the local customs and culture (I feel mainly because of the whole "Empire" thing, it seems to be hardwired into our genes to think we're somehow 'better' than anyone else)... They generally make no attempt to integrate and stick to their own community; look at ex-pat communities in Spain or Hong Kong for example, how many of these people are actually learning Spanish/Chinese and are integrating into the local culture...? Many areas in Spain in particular are like 'little Britains' with British bars, restaurants and food shops, so criticising immigrants for not 'integrating' properly here is a tad hypocritical when the majority of us are hardly that keen to do it ourselves when we go abroad to live...

 

..And while there are certain restrictions placed upon Western workers in Saudi Arabia, I would still maintain on balance they enjoy more freedom than the general Saudi population....

 

Oh you raise a very good point there Scott

 

In reality there is no difference between Pakistani communities in Southall and Bradford and English communities in parts of Spain

Bear in mind that totally fukked up things happen in so-called 'civilised' countries too JJN, wasn't so long ago that your 'wonderful' Brazilian authorities were turning a blind eye to (and in some cases, taking an active part in) murders of street children in Rio and Sao Paulo, so dont make out like things are fundamentally that great in your own backyard....

 

And from what I've seen of the extremities of rich and poor in Brazil, the people who live on the lowest rung of Brazilian society pretty much are forced to live like animals because the rich b/astards who run your country dont give a fukk.... <_<

 

But this is not something legally acepted. Crimes exist everywhere, tough happen with most frequency in certain places, but to live in a place where discriminate and kill people is legally acepted must be total hell. I still woudln´t trade Brazil for Arabia.

 

I agree that they do not have the same tolerance in places like Saudi compared with over here, my sister worked out in Saudi as a nurse and she was politely advised by her bosses that it would be in her interests that she do not wear a skirt above the knee as it would be frowned upon by the local islamics and she was advised not to wear certain other types of clothing too, it was not a direct order but her bosses made it clear to her that it would be a security risk her going out in short skirts, likewise no christian worship of any sort was allowed except internally within her compound of residence, there was no christian churches like there is mosques in the UK etc so indeed there is less of a tolerance of christianity in Saudi than there is of Islam in the UK but that is their culture and people going out to live there need to respect that likewise muslims living in the UK should respect our rights and our culture which by and large I believe they do (pork and alcohol is freely available for instance and people are allowed to wear short skirts), burqas are legal though so I respect people's right to wear them

 

I can never agree with that. It´s not a matter of respect, it´s a matter of freedom. If a western doesn´t have the right to have his religion in an islamic country it´s only because of their "culture", but if an islamic woman cannot cover her face then we´re dealing with their feedom? Muslims are respected in western countries even when they are less then a 1% minority... cannot say the contrary is truth, tough. 10% of christians in the "secular" Egipt country don´t have a half of the freedom that the 3% muslims have in UK or the 0.000000... have in Brazil, for example. Just like you said in other topic, I think they should "get their own house in order" first. If muslims wan´t to start to fight for freedom, they should start in their own medieval countries for their own good.

But this is not something legally acepted. Crimes exist everywhere, tough happen with most frequency in certain places, but to live in a place where discriminate and kill people is legally acepted must be total hell. I still woudln´t trade Brazil for Arabia.

 

It may as bloody well have been 'legally accepted', there was the absolute minimal of police investigations, coppers and local officials were paid off to 'look the other way', corruption in Brazil is horrendous almost to the point where it's an accepted business practice, even you can't argue with that.... If the law aint being enforced properly, it may as well be 'open season' on the street kids of Rio....

 

The political, social and moral corruption in Brazil makes an absolute mockery of your arguments of "freedom".. What "freedom" do the vast majority of your fellow Brazilians actually have...? The freedom to be poor and live in a sh!thole..? The freedom to starve..? The freedom to be treated like a second-class citizen because you are a dark-skinned Brazilian...?

 

Freedom..? That's a bad joke innit...?

They have the freedom to vote for the president and politics they want, to follow the religion they want, to voice an opinion, to wear like they want, etc. As if poverty and violence only existed here... And least we have ways to fight against it. Do you really think black people are treated as 2nd class citizens? In fact, poor people are treated as 2nd class citizens in any country of the world. It´s not like you have your civil rights banned for being black. Black people represent a big percentual of the population, which means they also have in their hands the choice of the politics who rule the nation. Some of the countries biggest cultural icons and celebrities are black. You might ask for one of these persons living in $h!tholes in Brazil if they want to move to Arabia or Egipt. I doubt it, they´re poor but they´re smiley. Plus, just because I live in a country with problems doesn´t mean I have to agree with all the type of discriminations and absurds in the islamic world. You complain a lot about the mix of religion and state. Here in Brazil these things are completely separated, and nobody is discriminated for belonging to a religious minority. If Brazil was such a piece of $h!t then we wouldn´t have so many people from islamic countries emigrating here to have a decent life.

I can never agree with that. It´s not a matter of respect, it´s a matter of freedom. If a western doesn´t have the right to have his religion in an islamic country it´s only because of their "culture", but if an islamic woman cannot cover her face then we´re dealing with their feedom? Muslims are respected in western countries even when they are less then a 1% minority... cannot say the contrary is truth, tough. 10% of christians in the "secular" Egipt country don´t have a half of the freedom that the 3% muslims have in UK or the 0.000000... have in Brazil, for example. Just like you said in other topic, I think they should "get their own house in order" first. If muslims wan´t to start to fight for freedom, they should start in their own medieval countries for their own good.

 

well said

I can never agree with that. It´s not a matter of respect, it´s a matter of freedom. If a western doesn´t have the right to have his religion in an islamic country it´s only because of their "culture", but if an islamic woman cannot cover her face then we´re dealing with their feedom? Muslims are respected in western countries even when they are less then a 1% minority... cannot say the contrary is truth, tough. 10% of christians in the "secular" Egipt country don´t have a half of the freedom that the 3% muslims have in UK or the 0.000000... have in Brazil, for example. Just like you said in other topic, I think they should "get their own house in order" first. If muslims wan´t to start to fight for freedom, they should start in their own medieval countries for their own good.

 

 

i also agree..... well said.

They have the freedom to vote for the president and politics they want, to follow the religion they want, to voice an opinion, to wear like they want, etc. As if poverty and violence only existed here... And least we have ways to fight against it. Do you really think black people are treated as 2nd class citizens? In fact, poor people are treated as 2nd class citizens in any country of the world. It´s not like you have your civil rights banned for being black. Black people represent a big percentual of the population, which means they also have in their hands the choice of the politics who rule the nation. Some of the countries biggest cultural icons and celebrities are black. You might ask for one of these persons living in $h!tholes in Brazil if they want to move to Arabia or Egipt. I doubt it, they´re poor but they´re smiley. Plus, just because I live in a country with problems doesn´t mean I have to agree with all the type of discriminations and absurds in the islamic world. You complain a lot about the mix of religion and state. Here in Brazil these things are completely separated, and nobody is discriminated for belonging to a religious minority. If Brazil was such a piece of $h!t then we wouldn´t have so many people from islamic countries emigrating here to have a decent life.

 

Say what you like, I've met plenty of Brazilian people and they all say the same thing, the extremes between rich and poor in Brazil are amongst the most punctuated on the planet, there are no Shanty Towns in the UK to my knowlege. Dark-skinned Brazilians are being indirectly discriminated against - the levels of affluence and poverty are totally disproportionate - a much larger percentage of dark-skinned Brazilians are much poorer than lighter-skinnd Brazilians, that's just a fact, whether you're uncomfortable with that or not. Just because some celebs and sportsmen are dark-skinned means fukk all, it's tokenism, an illusion of equality, lip service. A few get let into the 'exclusive club' as it were to keep the rest happy, docile and therefore unlikely to pick up petrol bombs and automatic weapons and storm the Brazilian Parliament...

 

There are plenty of black American cultural icons as well, but you can hardly say the "American Dream" has worked for the poor, black working classes in the US - Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath was the absolute proof in my eyes, that things remain fundamentally unchanged for the vast majority of African Americans despite all the lip service paid...

 

You find fault with other cultures far too easily and seem to totally refuse the see the faults of your own... Disappointing, becuause otherwise you're one of the most itelligent posters on this forum... But Craig is essentially right, we need to put our own houses in order before we can go fixing up someone else's.

I know about this problems in Brazil of course, but these problems happen in every 3rd world country, including nearly all islamic countries. I think it has nothing to do with the topic after all. The issue about racism, well, obviously most afro-brazilians are poor because they are descendents from slaves, while the majority of the white population comes from portuguese colonization. I don´t think it has so much to do with the collor of your skin, just the fact that the 2 races have started with different conditions. Things are getting fixed with time. 100 years ago if I married a black woman that would be scandal. Today, I think I would face no problem with it. 80 years ago, to have a black person on politics would be a wild thought... but now it´s pretty much normal. Of course it´s not a perfect world but we know what direction we should go. We have problems, but we know them. A bigger problem would be acepting these things as normal.

 

I´m not sayng my culture doesn´t have faults. In fact the whole western culture is decadent. We should even learn a bit from the eastern world. The worse it is to have women covering their faces, we might aswell take a lesson from that and not judge people by appearence. Our women don´t have to cover their faces but sometimes they suffer even more for not being acepted by their looks, and women are sometimes treated like sexual objects.