With series 13 now finished and attention turning to the last 3 Thirteenth Doctor and Chibnall episodes and the 2023 return of Russel T Davies (an army of Whovians rejoice in unison 😂).

 

I'm looking forward to the NYE episode now that it seems the timeless child arc has been put to bed we might get some old fashioned adventure back. At least it won't be a full gap year in Moffats years.

 

However RTD coming back is the big news however we spin this. Honestly think it's incredibly brave for him to do so. Whilst RTD is unlikely to ever publicly come out and trash Chibbers work he did say he'd never come back and here he is. I find myself leaning into the fact it's a rescue mission and by the end of Series 14 / Season 40 we'll likely have an idea of whether it is or not - if we get a 'great reset' then probably yes.

 

For me there's a small number of key points that must be addressed:

 

1. Return of Standalone Stories (2/3 part max and no big serial plots - Bad Wolf - yes / Flux no.

2. The Division decanonised with Gallifrey and the time lord's brought back. I'd settle for the doctor coming from Gallifrey's sister planet in the other universe.

3. New monsters, genuinely scary new monsters. The kind of stuff that'll make kids have nightmares, like the weeping angels and are you my mummy.

4. Rest The Daleks and the Cybermen. The shows way too reliant on them.

5. Avoid 'grand' personal stories about the Doctor and go back to basics. Pull the show out of it's own arses and make it about the mad man in a box and his companions (dump the word friends) again rather than about the superhero style Doctor.

I agree with some of your points - the RTD era before was SO good for iconic new monsters and they've been few and far between since then so I really hope that's something that changes. The back to basics approach is something I'd quite like too, and it'd definitely help restore some of the public opinion that's been slightly lost (but isn't beyond saving) from Capaldi onwards. Just one companion, to start with at least

 

I think Flux actually proved that a serialised approach can work - RTD knows what he's doing and if he does a similar approach to this, I'm confident it'd be great. Equally, standalone stories would also be fab, I feel like we're in safe hands so I'm not being super picky! :lol:

 

I don't see RTD decanonising anything from the Chibnall era - he might never mention it again, sure, but he won't actively retcon anything that's happened with the Timeless Child. He's on record saying he loves it and it'd be highly unprofessional to just wipe out something his colleague and friend introduced as soon as he arrives. As for Gallifrey, this is the man who actively destroyed Gallifrey when he first arrived...!!!

I think what the show needs depends on who they're trying to appeal to. RTD's first run was very well received but much of that audience will have aged out of it now. My kids for example no longer care and view the show as rather quaint now

 

Equally there's also a much older generation who have been with the show since the classic era that would like to see a return to some of that simplicity. That group, I guess, includes me.

 

I have been watching since the mid-70s and I have to acknowledge that Chibnall's tenure has seen me becoming increasingly disinterested.

 

The problems -

 

I've never seen her in anything else and had no issue with casting a woman in the role but Jodie has been poorly served with bad scripts, lacklustre companions and weak villains. My favourite episode of her run has easily been the one where she takes a back seat to the bigger story - Rosa. I'm not blaming the actor as such but her version of the character has been rather two-dimensional. All fast talking and quips but no depth or darkness that others actors could bring to the role.

 

Chibnall is a poor storyteller. His only idea seems to be to throw as much at the screen as you can and hope something sticks. Character arcs are set up and ignored in favour of plot contrivance (Ryan's Dyspraxia - my daughter has it, the character doesn't until the writer remembers he does). Narratives have no depth and it's all style over content.

 

All the companions have potential but they've been overcrowded and poorly served - were no lessons learned from the 5th Doctor's era?

 

Not every story needs to be a huge, universe altering event. Bring it back down to small scale and emphasize the human element over spectacle. Less is often more.

 

Stop overusing classic villians. In his 7 year run Tom Baker only met the Daleks twice, and when they turned up it was an event. If you want to use classic era monsters and villlains there's tons of great but forgotten ones that could be utilised too. or, you know, create something new that actually scares the kids. Use the big bad guys sparingly

 

And while we're at it stop making the classic monsters rubbish - apparently the Sontarans are now dumbasses with military tactics akin to someone who once won a game of Risk. Remember when one Dalek was a terrifying threat but now they seem to dispatch entire fleets with casual abandon, at least once a season. The Cybermen are now a rubbish version of The Borg as well.

They need to go back to Cybermen body horror, not a rip off of the Borg.

On the point of the RTD generation aging out of it. I was 9 when the first series aired. I think a lot of us still hold affection for the early series and alot of the more casual viewers of our generation could be tempted back. The show was massive with us and apparentlythe demographic the show most struggles with now

On the point of the RTD generation aging out of it. I was 9 when the first series aired. I think a lot of us still hold affection for the early series and alot of the more casual viewers of our generation could be tempted back. The show was massive with us and apparentlythe demographic the show most struggles with now

I'm sure that is true for a fair number of people but similarly I was a huge fan of the show in the late '70s and early '80s, and about the age you were then but by the time Sylvester McCoy took over I was no longer that bothered - poor quality and other interests, the cause, and that was only 10 years. By my 20s I was barely watching TV and had the show still been on air I would have viewed it as for kids (which it is even more so now than in the '70s)

 

I just wonder how many 25 year olds will still be interested.

 

 

Like I said my kids, were raised on it through my influence, and adored the show, but one's now at Uni, the other at college and they both stopped watching a few years back. The idea that either would return to watching just because RTD is back is not going to happen. Even Tennant wouldn't make them watch it now. I know that's too small a sample to go by but I don't think RTD's return will pull back that many older viewers - I feel like maybe a third of those who stopped watching might have a look out of curiosity.

 

For many my age the 2005 relaunch has never quite captured the magic of the classic years regardless of how good some of it has been. As people get older viewpoints change and the same could well happen here. For some it'll be like old times but not for most. I think that's the reason that the show struggles with that age group on the whole.

 

I can't add anything wrong about the last few seasons that Severin hasn't already listed, a third Dalek New Years special is just overkill, and I have no doubt they will be as easy to beat as they were the last two times.

 

I agree we definitely need some new monsters, Moffat was arguably the best at that, but ofc. some great ones like the Angels came out of RTD's era as well.

 

In terms of who it would appeal to, there's a definite market for nostalgia as many recent Hollywood projects have proved and his era brought in so many new fans (me included) that would be interested at least initially, especially as it's become so divisive these days. The quality of his recent shows (It's a Sin, Years & Years) does give me faith he's still got it. The biggest obstacle perhaps is just the way we consume media is very different now than in 2005.

I'm sure that is true for a fair number of people but similarly I was a huge fan of the show in the late '70s and early '80s, and about the age you were then but by the time Sylvester McCoy took over I was no longer that bothered - poor quality and other interests, the cause, and that was only 10 years. By my 20s I was barely watching TV and had the show still been on air I would have viewed it as for kids (which it is even more so now than in the '70s)

 

I just wonder how many 25 year olds will still be interested.

Like I said my kids, were raised on it through my influence, and adored the show, but one's now at Uni, the other at college and they both stopped watching a few years back. The idea that either would return to watching just because RTD is back is not going to happen. Even Tennant wouldn't make them watch it now. I know that's too small a sample to go by but I don't think RTD's return will pull back that many older viewers - I feel like maybe a third of those who stopped watching might have a look out of curiosity.

 

For many my age the 2005 relaunch has never quite captured the magic of the classic years regardless of how good some of it has been. As people get older viewpoints change and the same could well happen here. For some it'll be like old times but not for most. I think that's the reason that the show struggles with that age group on the whole.

 

I suppose as more people from that generation have kids it might help the show rekindle some of it's viewership. I know quite a few of people my age are starting to have kids. That could pave the way for a serious revival in the late 2020s era. However that requires the show actually targeting itself at the kids again instead of the long term middle aged Classic fans.

 

One of the big things with the 2005 relaunch was that a lot of parents who'd watched the original series (mine included) were watching it with their kids who were getting into the new show. But that's probably one of the shows biggest issues, that idea of the family all sitting round a table together is dying off. Doctor Who being a bit of an exception in maintain that into the 2010s.

 

It's interesting that the gap between the end of the original one was 16 years and the new series has now been running for 16 years.

 

I think the big difference is whereas you say it never captured the Classic magic, most of us would say nothing since Capaldi took over has captured the initial new series magic. I've mentioned elsewhere I'm about to start working through the classic ones, so we'll see if I rate them above or below the New Series by the end.

Edited December 13, 20213 yr by ChristmasFridays

I think the big difference is whereas you say it never captured the Classic magic, most of us would say nothing since Capaldi took over has captured the initial new series magic. I've mentioned elsewhere I'm about to start working through the classic ones, so we'll see if I rate them above or below the New Series by the end.

 

I agree there was a fall off in quality that began to be apparent during Capaldi's run. I don't think it was Capaldi himself as I really liked him in the role but something about the show began to make the flaws more obvious.

 

 

I'd very much like to see what you think of the classic episodes. Some of it has dated terribly but nostalgia has a way of papering over the cracks and taking you back to your childhood point of view. From Hartnell up to Davison, they are in some part all 'my Doctor' as the phrase goes, and Tom Baker to me IS The Doctor.

 

You may well find some of it wooden, cliched and silly, with especially lame effects. It is, of course but we loved it and if you'll forgive us, we knew no better

 

Will you be doing a review thread?

Edited December 13, 20213 yr by Severin

Honestly I've heard so many people say they switched off with Capaldi, which is a huge shame as I thought he was excellent but I can understand the abruptness of Twelve in series 8 being quite offputting for some (obviously for those of us who stuck with it, we got to appreciate Twelve's full journey from moody and abrupt, to heroic and compassionate, and it was delightfully played by Capaldi). While we don't need Tennant/Smith copycats forever, Capaldi at first was probably a bit too much in the other direction.

I agree there was a fall off in quality that began to be apparent during Capaldi's run. I don't think it was Capaldi himself as I really liked him in the role but something about the show began to make the flaws more obvious.

I'd very much like to see what you think of the classic episodes. Some of it has dated terribly but nostalgia has a way of papering over the cracks and taking you back to your childhood point of view. From Hartnell up to Davison, they are in some part all 'my Doctor' as the phrase goes, and Tom Baker to me IS The Doctor.

 

You may well find some of it wooden, cliched and silly, with especially lame effects. It is, of course but we loved it and if you'll forgive us, we knew no better

 

Will you be doing a review thread?

 

If anyone would actually be interested in it then I'd be happy to review each serial. Probably in a casual manner rather than in depth though. I've seen the odd episode when they've been repeated (An Unearthly Child, Spearhead from Space and a few fifth doctor era ones and yes the acting struck me as a bit cranky at times and the plots sometimes dodgy, but it was surprisingly engaging what I did see) but I really want to see how it all fits together in order it was made.

RTD has confirmed (although rule no. 1 the showrunners lie x) that they’ve just started auditioning for the Fourteenth Doctor! He’s written a few of the episodes for the next series but confirmed the first episode of the new era will be the 60th anniversary episode.

The way he's already written some episodes when usually he'd be handing scripts in the night before readthroughs :cheeseblock:

 

That was my first thought too! :lol:

So this one's been running round my head and here seems as best a place to run it around...

 

Remember when the 11th Doctor met thee curator and he said he might even revisit a few old faces in future... what if they went and revisited the idea with one of two ideas....

 

Cast Tom Baker as the 14th Doctor (outlandish but would surely be a ratings grabber)

 

Give Jo Martin the 14th Doctor role

Tom Baker is 87 years old. I doubt he'd have the energy to film a single story these days.

 

If they can find a way to give Jo Martin the role and retcon the Timeless Child crap out of existence I'm all for it.

 

 

 

 

I think with casting 14 they have a few things to contend with -

 

Whitaker has her admirers but she often comes in a fairly low ranking of popularity compared to most of the other Doctors. If they cast a male actor again they could be accused of viewing the choice of a female Doctor as a mistake, which would be unfair, the writing has been the real issue.

 

Equally, casting another woman risks further alienating those fans already dissatisfied with the idea. Even though I think there are several who would be excellent in the role there's still a significant amount of fans against the idea in principle.

 

Given the number of accusations of placing 'wokeness' over quality storytelling the casting a black woman as the lead may be a risk too far, and as good as Jo Martin is, that connection to the Timeless Child idea might be something they want to quietly gloss over (much like McGann's half human reference) or erase altogether.

 

In that respect, there's a chance that a black male actor might be the compromise they're looking for

In terms of the 60th anniversary episode, I'd like to see McGann given a role in it, he just about still looks young enough to argue his aging away slightly, much like they did in Time Crash, and he deserves another story. I'd like to see Eccleston back too but I can't ever see that happening, especially with RTD back.

 

Beyond that an old companion would be nice - Susan would be a great link to the beginning and she could even regenerate (if Time Lords can swap sex during this process could she ever be A Boy Named Sue?) and be 14th's companion for a while

 

Personally, a return of Romana would be brilliant too

 

I'd also be more than happy to see David Bradley return.

 

I doubt they'll do any of this but I feel that somehow they'll try to connect to the shows history and it'd start the new incarnation of with a gentle introduction before they take the reins over fully

Who is Susan and why can she regenerate?! :angry: That is only for the Doctor and River Song!!

I would be surprised if 14 wasn't a woman - RTD isn't the person who's going to play it safe and I think the "not my Doctor" female haters are a vocal minority. I don't see it being Jo Martin mainly on the basis that I anticipate RTD won't get too wrapped up in continuity, much like series 1 but obviously with a different, fresher approach (though obviously Jo would be amazing), and I can't see him immediately retconning the biggest plotline of his predecessor's era, particularly when Chibnall is his friend as well as colleague.

 

I find it quite funny when I see people saying the show is too woke with Chibnall - it was just as woke with RTD and will be similar again I have no doubt, especially considering RTD's last two shows! (though I think Chibnall is much more on-the-nose with it while RTD seeded into a sci-fi setting better, even when it was literally a corrupt government in Aliens of London lol)

In terms of the 60th anniversary episode, I'd like to see McGann given a role in it, he just about still looks young enough to argue his aging away slightly, much like they did in Time Crash, and he deserves another story. I'd like to see Eccleston back too but I can't ever see that happening, especially with RTD back.

 

Beyond that an old companion would be nice - Susan would be a great link to the beginning and she could even regenerate (if Time Lords can swap sex during this process could she ever be A Boy Named Sue?) and be 14th's companion for a while

 

Personally, a return of Romana would be brilliant too

 

I'd also be more than happy to see David Bradley return.

 

I doubt they'll do any of this but I feel that somehow they'll try to connect to the shows history and it'd start the new incarnation of with a gentle introduction before they take the reins over fully

 

Re Susan would Ford want to return? I can imagine the only reason she wasn't in the 50th was she didn't want to be.

 

It'd be pretty cool to visit Susan in tbe 23rd century as an old lady (DIOE I'd set in 2164 so could set in in 2222 and that would keep things together - Peter Fraser who played David Campbell is still around and all so they could still be together.

 

I quite like the mooted idea of using her to cement the Timeless Child by either 13 or 14 bumping into her. If there going to avoid try onning it then she's the key to it.