regardless.... all the bloodshed could have been averted if saddam had complied. he knew what he was doing, but failed to get the islamic backing he wanted.

 

No mate, not 'regardless' at all.... The Yanks used the UN Weapons Inspection team to further their own ends.... Proof for me that they orchestrated and manipulated all this from the very start, the Yanks ALWAYS wanted war and to control the oil supply.... And before you accuse me of merely being 'anti-Bush' again, this actually mainly happened during the CLINTON Administration... Unlike Bush, however, Clinton didn't have 9/11 happen to make a full-scale invasion an easy sell....

 

Man, why cant you see what these people are actually about....? Imperialism, simple as....

No mate, not 'regardless' at all.... The Yanks used the UN Weapons Inspection team to further their own ends.... Proof for me that they orchestrated and manipulated all this from the very start, the Yanks ALWAYS wanted war and to control the oil supply.... And before you accuse me of merely being 'anti-Bush' again, this actually mainly happened during the CLINTON Administration... Unlike Bush, however, Clinton didn't have 9/11 happen to make a full-scale invasion an easy sell....

 

Man, why cant you see what these people are actually about....? Imperialism, simple as....

 

i know what they are about, crooked inspection team or not, the final decision laid at saddams door and he gave them the excuse they needed.

i know what they are about, crooked inspection team or not, the final decision laid at saddams door and he gave them the excuse they needed.

 

Well, dont you think that the fact that they WERE crooked kind of gave Saddam an excuse to NOT comply...? Sorry mate, your logic is flawed... At the end of the day, it was America and UK using the cluster bombs, B52s, depleted uranium rounds, etc, and the war was illegal by any definition... So, I'm sorry mate, Bush and Blair remain liars, murderers, imperialists and war criminals and SHOULD be swinging from the same gallows as Saddam, murder is murder, I dont give a sh!t about the reasons, we were NEVER under any sort of threat from Saddam, FACT!!! We had even less reason to go to war against Iraq than we did in 1982 against Argentina.... Anything else other than Bush and Blair in an Iraqi court on war crimes charges is just sheer hypocrisy. But then, hypocrisy is something the West has down to a fine art....

Well, dont you think that the fact that they WERE crooked kind of gave Saddam an excuse to NOT comply...? Sorry mate, your logic is flawed... At the end of the day, it was America and UK using the cluster bombs, B52s, depleted uranium rounds, etc, and the war was illegal by any definition... So, I'm sorry mate, Bush and Blair remain liars, murderers, imperialists and war criminals and SHOULD be swinging from the same gallows as Saddam, murder is murder, I dont give a sh!t about the reasons, we were NEVER under any sort of threat from Saddam, FACT!!! We had even less reason to go to war against Iraq than we did in 1982 against Argentina.... Anything else other than Bush and Blair in an Iraqi court on war crimes charges is just sheer hypocrisy. But then, hypocrisy is something the West has down to a fine art....

 

To quote Meatloaf - You took the words right out of my mouth

 

Spot on

Well, dont you think that the fact that they WERE crooked kind of gave Saddam an excuse to NOT comply...? Sorry mate, your logic is flawed... At the end of the day, it was America and UK using the cluster bombs, B52s, depleted uranium rounds, etc, and the war was illegal by any definition... So, I'm sorry mate, Bush and Blair remain liars, murderers, imperialists and war criminals and SHOULD be swinging from the same gallows as Saddam, murder is murder, I dont give a sh!t about the reasons, we were NEVER under any sort of threat from Saddam, FACT!!! We had even less reason to go to war against Iraq than we did in 1982 against Argentina.... Anything else other than Bush and Blair in an Iraqi court on war crimes charges is just sheer hypocrisy. But then, hypocrisy is something the West has down to a fine art....

 

 

very eloquent scott.... think this has run its course as the salient point remains... if saddam had complied with the weapons inspectors the americans would not have had the excuse they wanted... everything else is irrelevant as that point is at the crux of the whole affair.

 

saddam may have had an excuse not to comply, but that would lead to war, he knew that and he wanted a jihad. he failed.

 

we were under no threat from saddam?... oh so its ok then for him to use chemical weapons on his own people and who knows where next? hitler was no threat to us until he got to calais?.. and that 'big gun' he was building (with componants manufactured here!)? what was that for?.... lol.

 

im not saying that we had a reason to go to war... im against it... we supported the yanks <_< and even if they found another excuse, blair couldnt have.

 

if saddam had have fully complied with the un weapons inspectors then IF the yanks had have attacked regardless, saddam would have had worldwide support, he would have had the moral high ground.

 

 

if saddam had have fully complied with the un weapons inspectors then IF the yanks had have attacked regardless, saddam would have had worldwide support, he would have had the moral high ground.

 

Well dude, in what way, exactly didn't Saddam comply with Hans Blix, I do believe he gave Blix unfettered access to Iraqi Govt buildings...? Blix himsellf said he wanted more time, and didn't agree with an invasion. Even Dr David Kelly had his doubts about the WMD argument and the way the Govt manipulated things to its own ends, then he mysteriously 'committed suicide'....

 

"Supergun"? That's a pretty lame argument as well, considering OUR Govt gave the go-ahead for that one... Blame Thatcher and William Waldegrave for that... We're arming all sorts of unpleasant, nasty regimes who are using the weapons we give them to slaughter their own people, why single out Saddam..? Oh, that would be because of the OIL wouldn't it....?

 

And you still cannot argue with the fact that the US manipulated the UN Inspections process for its own ends... Sorry, but the real villians of this piece, the creators of the monster are US, UK and France, and we're just gonna do it again, and again and again (Saudi Arabia anyone..??)... And then we turn around and say "Oh fukk maybe this wasn't a good idea....", but of course we still continue to hold the Docklands Arms Fair to arm yet MORE dictators, because it "benefits the economy"; oh, and then we just HAVE to go in there and bomb the c**p out of them, kill lots of people "for their own good".... Yeah, right.... <_< "To save the village, we have to burn the village" eh...? How about WE DONT FUKKIN' INTERFERE IN THE FIRST FUKKIN PLACE AND LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE TO SORT OUT THEIR OWN PROBLEMS!!!!!!!????? And just maybe we wont have buses and tubes being blown up in the middle of London, whaddya think??????

 

And how have ordinary Iraqis benefitted by our actions anyway..? Three factions all at each other's throats, civil war, insurgency, car bombs going off every other day, Al Qaeda terrorists pouring over the borders every day, and the Iraqi PM himself wants to leave office as soon as possible.... Yeah, bang-up job we did, I must fukkin' say.... <_< You wanna know who HAS benefitted out of this war..? Haliburton, Lockheed Martin, the Oil Companies, Big Construction contractors, etc, etc..... The elite Western Capitalists have benefitted, no bugger else has.... <_<

 

All this bullsh!t, all this mayhem... Was it all really worth it, just to hang Saddam...? Absolutely sod all has changed for ordinary Iraqis (perhaps if some radical, Leftist, Nationalist Govt in the vein of Chavez or Morales had come to power, then maybe... Mind you, like the Yanks or the Globalisers would've allowed THAT...), and things have just gotten a LOT worse on a global scale... The sheer stupidity of it all is unreal and indefensible, whatever Saddam did or did not do....

Well dude, in what way, exactly didn't Saddam comply with Hans Blix, I do believe he gave Blix unfettered access to Iraqi Govt buildings...? Blix himsellf said he wanted more time, and didn't agree with an invasion. Even Dr David Kelly had his doubts about the WMD argument and the way the Govt manipulated things to its own ends, then he mysteriously 'committed suicide'....

 

Have you read Blix's book Disarming Iraq? It is MADDENING, he was subject to complete character assassination by politicians in Washington. They claimed he was making up excuses and defending Saddam. THey claimed he was anti-American. Utter BULL$h!t, they gave him FOUR MONTHS and suddenly time was up. Mind you, after the invasion, up until 2005 Bush was still claiming he needed more time to find those WMDs. WHY was the UN only given 100 days then??

 

How about WE DONT FUKKIN' INTERFERE IN THE FIRST FUKKIN PLACE AND LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE TO SORT OUT THEIR OWN PROBLEMS!!!!!!!????? And just maybe we wont have buses and tubes being blown up in the middle of London, whaddya think??????

 

Absolutely!! But it's so much easier to think it's EAST vs. WEST, it's THEM vs. US, it's FUNDAMENTAL, it's HATRED, it's EVIL. Blame Bush and Blair for sticking that idea in a bunch of heads. Granted the rhetoric of bin Laden, Saddam, and Ahmadinejad don't help..."praise Allah" and that... but anyone who fails to see terrorism for what it is (a POLITICAL action shrowded in the thin veil of ideology) is an idiot. But what can you do? Didn't the Tube bombers (maybe the ones that failed 2 weeks later?) claim that they did it out of revenge for the UK's participation in the Iraq war? Hasn't bin Laden said a million times that all he wants is for the US to leave the Middle East? But people STILL insist "no, no, no, they did it because they hate us. They're evil." HUH??? The terrorists themselves are telling us WHY they hijack planes and PEOPLE STILL DON'T FUKKING LISTEN.

 

All this bullsh!t, all this mayhem... Was it all really worth it, just to hang Saddam...? Absolutely sod all has changed for ordinary Iraqis (perhaps if some radical, Leftist, Nationalist Govt in the vein of Chavez or Morales had come to power, then maybe... Mind you, like the Yanks or the Globalisers would've allowed THAT...), and things have just gotten a LOT worse on a global scale... The sheer stupidity of it all is unreal and indefensible, whatever Saddam did or did not do....

 

And the worst part is, some of us SAW THE WHOLE FUKKING THING back in 2003. Makes me sick the people that say "Well we were misinformed, don't debate the war because we already invaded." It's not hindsight, I KNEW exactly what would happen these past 4 years BACK IN 2003 BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN! I read Colin Powell's "proof" and it was LAUGHABLE. I heard, astonished, how Bush tried to link Saddam Hussein with 9/11. I watched Bush's disgusting, DISGUSTING 2004 campaign television commercials showing the World Trade Center collapsing, thousands of people dying, all the while showing Bush defending the war in Iraq in the foreground. I saw right through all the bull$h!t, not just me but MILLIONS of people! Call me useless for lingering, for remaining angry about past decisions but I can't help it. I will NEVER forgive the politicians in this country, I will NEVER stop reminding people how stupid they were to support the war in the first place, how that puts BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS. I will never be satisfied until Bush goes to jail for his repugnant actions. He's killed 600,000 Iraqis, he's killed 3,000 Americans, he's severely wounded and forever scarred (physically and mentally) a personal friend of mine (who would have come home in a body bag if not for shear luck and 36 inches).

 

I realize I'm preaching to the choir here but I just can't help it! it makes me SICK.

 

 

Have you read Blix's book Disarming Iraq? It is MADDENING, he was subject to complete character assassination by politicians in Washington. They claimed he was making up excuses and defending Saddam. THey claimed he was anti-American. Utter BULL$h!t, they gave him FOUR MONTHS and suddenly time was up. Mind you, after the invasion, up until 2005 Bush was still claiming he needed more time to find those WMDs. WHY was the UN only given 100 days then??

 

 

I haven't read Blix's book, but I read Scott Ritter's and he was hamstrung by the same sort of idiotic Washington interference as well, as well as the small 'insignificant' detail (or so Rob seems to think...) of bloody CIA informants infiltrating his Inspections team..... <_< Christ, I cannot believe that people don't see that Saddam actually had a LEGIT reason for non-compliance with the UN - yes mad, murdering b/astard he may have been, but he was bloody SPOT ON in his condemnation of the UN Weapons Inspection process as being used as a tool of American interests... Why should ANYONE tolerate foreign spies operating in their country, Christ, Iraq was a SOVEREIGN NATION FFS!!!!! In fact, why should the International Community tolerate a rogue nation (ie America..) completely undermining the integrity of the UN and using the UN as a tool to further its own national interest...?

 

 

Absolutely!! But it's so much easier to think it's EAST vs. WEST, it's THEM vs. US, it's FUNDAMENTAL, it's HATRED, it's EVIL. Blame Bush and Blair for sticking that idea in a bunch of heads. Granted the rhetoric of bin Laden, Saddam, and Ahmadinejad don't help..."praise Allah" and that... but anyone who fails to see terrorism for what it is (a POLITICAL action shrowded in the thin veil of ideology) is an idiot. But what can you do? Didn't the Tube bombers (maybe the ones that failed 2 weeks later?) claim that they did it out of revenge for the UK's participation in the Iraq war? Hasn't bin Laden said a million times that all he wants is for the US to leave the Middle East? But people STILL insist "no, no, no, they did it because they hate us. They're evil." HUH??? The terrorists themselves are telling us WHY they hijack planes and PEOPLE STILL DON'T FUKKING LISTEN.

 

Oh, absolutely, there's a video of one of the tube bombers actually categorically STATING his reasons as being the illegal invasion of Iraq, and B-liar, the British Media and the political establishment can stick their head in the sand all they bloody like and say 'Iraq had nothing to do with 7/7", it's blatantly BULLSH!T.... I didn't hear about any suicide bombings happening in the UK BEFORE the war in Iraq, and I reckon to deny the facts when someone is actually TELLING YOU, STATING THEIR INTENT AND THEIR MOTIVES ON TAPE.... Then frankly you are either an utter fool in denial or you are just sticking to the Party line and hope that enough idiots out there will actually believe you (and considering Nu Labour did win the election, there were enough fools out there, unfortunately..), because, let's face it, if people in this fukkin' country and in the US would just WAKE THE FUKK UP to what's really going on, then we would bloody well string up these fukkin' c/unts from the nearest fukking lamp post...... :angry: :angry:

 

Also, you're right in what you state as the motives of Bin Laden and Al Zarqawi actually are... What people seem to forget is Al Qaeda didn't even exist until the first Gulf Oil War in 1991.... Funnily enough, Bin Laden sorta objected to Western countries setting up army bases in the Islamic holy land, using Saudi Arabia (the home of Mecca let's not forget..) as a launchpad for an Imperialist war against an Arab State... Bin Laden had no love for Saddam (and the feeling was mutual), his objections were based on an actual principle, that outsiders should not be interfering in Arab politics... How else can you explain the fact that Bin Laden, once an ally of Reagan and Bush Sr, trained by the CIA to be a terrorist and fight against the Soviet War Machine in Afghanistan, could suddenly become a sworn enemy..? He felt BETRAYED by his former friends is the simple answer.... I know I'm gonna get pilloried for saying this, but fukk it, I'm gonna say it anyway, in many ways, the American Political Establishement is a damn sight more amoral than Bin Laden, Bin Laden wasn't the one who turned around and stabbed former friends and allies in the back, he merely reacted to BEING stabbed in the back... 9/11 WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED HAD AMERICA NOT SET FOOT ON ARAB SOIL....

 

And now, this invasion of Iraq.... Well, haven't we just played right into the hands of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda with this spectacular folly... We have done EXACTLY what they wanted, gotten rid of one of Bin Laden's enemies (ie, Saddam, who was an ENEMY of the Islamic Revolution, being a SECULAR military leader and all...), got pretty much the WHOLE of the Islamic world royally p!ssed off at us, and now every nutter in the world with a grudge and a bomb in his rucksack is off to Iraq to kill as many US and British soldiers as they can. The illegal invasion of Iraq is the rallying call to arms of every Islamic fundamentalist in the fukkin' world, and it really doesn't take THAT much to convince already alienated, impressionable and thoroughly hacked off Islamic youths to 'do their duty for Allah' (as we witnessed in London on 7/7..), just as the IRA used "Bloody Sunday" to call young Catholics into their ranks (and thousands did by the way..) and 25 Years of Troubles resulted in that one, we are now living in a whole OTHER world of sh!t that's gonna make the "Troubles" look like a playground spat.... Well done Bush, B-liar, such a great job you did for 'freedom'....... <_<

 

And the worst part is, some of us SAW THE WHOLE FUKKING THING back in 2003. Makes me sick the people that say "Well we were misinformed, don't debate the war because we already invaded." It's not hindsight, I KNEW exactly what would happen these past 4 years BACK IN 2003 BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN! I read Colin Powell's "proof" and it was LAUGHABLE. I heard, astonished, how Bush tried to link Saddam Hussein with 9/11. I watched Bush's disgusting, DISGUSTING 2004 campaign television commercials showing the World Trade Center collapsing, thousands of people dying, all the while showing Bush defending the war in Iraq in the foreground. I saw right through all the bull$h!t, not just me but MILLIONS of people! Call me useless for lingering, for remaining angry about past decisions but I can't help it. I will NEVER forgive the politicians in this country, I will NEVER stop reminding people how stupid they were to support the war in the first place, how that puts BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS. I will never be satisfied until Bush goes to jail for his repugnant actions. He's killed 600,000 Iraqis, he's killed 3,000 Americans, he's severely wounded and forever scarred (physically and mentally) a personal friend of mine (who would have come home in a body bag if not for shear luck and 36 inches).

 

I realize I'm preaching to the choir here but I just can't help it! it makes me SICK.

 

There really isn't much more I can add to this part... I'm absolutely proud to say that I was part of a totally illegal demo in the heart of London on the day war started.... :lol: I really didn't give a sh!te if I was arrested or not, sometimes you have to put yourself at risk for a greater purpose.... I never supported this piece of sh!t war.... I actually went up to a copper in Parliament Square, totally high on adrenaline and bravado, pointed at the Houses Of Parliament and said "Mate, you wanna do your job and go in there and arrest these b/astards....". He just smiled at me and actually said "Wish I could..."....

 

It's shocking about your friend, I know someone who was in Iraq as well, someone who once believed what he was doing was right and that his country actually meant something, someone who was in the Bosnia and Kosovo and actually helped people... He came back from Iraq and resigned his commission, totally sick of it all and feeling used, manipulated and lied to......

 

 

 

don't think it's good to kill people like this

I know I'm gonna get pilloried for saying this, but fukk it, I'm gonna say it anyway, in many ways, the American Political Establishement is a damn sight more amoral than Bin Laden...

 

CAREFUL, you might give them ideas! :P Remember the CIA can already arrest, deport, imprison, and fukking TORTURE you totally legally. Public pillory, why not? And rest assured they're no doubt reading this now, taking down names, all in the name of national security, mind you. :lol: :lol:

 

 

And now, this invasion of Iraq.... Well, haven't we just played right into the hands of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda with this spectacular folly... We have done EXACTLY what they wanted, gotten rid of one of Bin Laden's enemies (ie, Saddam, who was an ENEMY of the Islamic Revolution, being a SECULAR military leader and all...), got pretty much the WHOLE of the Islamic world royally p!ssed off at us, and now every nutter in the world with a grudge and a bomb in his rucksack is off to Iraq to kill as many US and British soldiers as they can. The illegal invasion of Iraq is the rallying call to arms of every Islamic fundamentalist in the fukkin' world, and it really doesn't take THAT much to convince already alienated, impressionable and thoroughly hacked off Islamic youths to 'do their duty for Allah' (as we witnessed in London on 7/7..), just as the IRA used "Bloody Sunday" to call young Catholics into their ranks (and thousands did by the way..) and 25 Years of Troubles resulted in that one, we are now living in a whole OTHER world of sh!t that's gonna make the "Troubles" look like a playground spat.... Well done Bush, B-liar, such a great job you did for 'freedom'....... <_<

 

Think of Septmeber 12, 2001. The US had the entire world at its FEET. Foreign ambassadors at the UN were photographed weeping. Huge floral displays were piled at the entrance to every US embassy. The PMs of obscure Pacific Island nations were pledging support. French newspapers were claiming "We're all American today."

 

and NOW, a mere 5 years later, much of the world (including the entire Muslim population) are essentially united in anger and fury at the US. If that isn't the single worse diplomatic failure in US history, I don't know what was. The Iraq war is a HUGE rallying cry, as if previous atrocities hadn't been enough. You know there was a growing pacifist, reformist youth movement in the Muslim world late last century. Their fathers spoke of US atrocities but the youths hadn't known the US to be that way in their lifetime. Well thatr's all gone to hell, now both generations have reason to be angry. The US has doomed itself to an entire generation of people. So ****ing pathetic.

Think of Septmeber 12, 2001. The US had the entire world at its FEET. Foreign ambassadors at the UN were photographed weeping. Huge floral displays were piled at the entrance to every US embassy. The PMs of obscure Pacific Island nations were pledging support. French newspapers were claiming "We're all American today."

 

and NOW, a mere 5 years later, much of the world (including the entire Muslim population) are essentially united in anger and fury at the US. If that isn't the single worse diplomatic failure in US history, I don't know what was. The Iraq war is a HUGE rallying cry, as if previous atrocities hadn't been enough. You know there was a growing pacifist, reformist youth movement in the Muslim world late last century. Their fathers spoke of US atrocities but the youths hadn't known the US to be that way in their lifetime. Well thatr's all gone to hell, now both generations have reason to be angry. The US has doomed itself to an entire generation of people. So ****ing pathetic.

 

 

good point....

Think of Septmeber 12, 2001. The US had the entire world at its FEET. Foreign ambassadors at the UN were photographed weeping. Huge floral displays were piled at the entrance to every US embassy. The PMs of obscure Pacific Island nations were pledging support. French newspapers were claiming "We're all American today."

 

and NOW, a mere 5 years later, much of the world (including the entire Muslim population) are essentially united in anger and fury at the US. If that isn't the single worse diplomatic failure in US history, I don't know what was. The Iraq war is a HUGE rallying cry, as if previous atrocities hadn't been enough. You know there was a growing pacifist, reformist youth movement in the Muslim world late last century. Their fathers spoke of US atrocities but the youths hadn't known the US to be that way in their lifetime. Well thatr's all gone to hell, now both generations have reason to be angry. The US has doomed itself to an entire generation of people. So ****ing pathetic.

 

100% Truth.... The young Muslims over here are growing ever radicalised because of this war, because of Britain's involvement, Blair's lies, etc whereas before the Muslim community were absolutely no bother to anyone. Growing numbers of young Muslim women in particular are choosing (and it is a choice..) to wear the full veil in what is very obviously a direct statement of protest (and a wholly PEACEFUL one, so what is the fukkin problem our Politicians have..?) against the Govt, as much of a protest as waving placards in Parliament Square and every bit as legit IMO... Blair, Jack Straw and John Reid make their ridiculous speeches and platitudes presuming to lecture the Muslim community on how they should behave (and refusing to acknowlege that it is the Govt's own behaviour that is creating the problem) .... I mean, Christ, considering everything that's happened and the mayhem they've caused, how the hell can they do that with a straight face...? The insufferable arrogance and hypocrisy of the political elite never ceases to amaze and disgust me, if there are problems and deep divisions within our society, they are of our Govt's making.....

 

But of course, most people just dont want to see that, or are too afraid to admit the facts....