and a homophobic zealot at that... who bizarrely considers gays abnormal and 'tolerable'.... :blink:

Why on Earth are you making such great pains to defend this woefully innacurate and totally jaundiced text which has caused nothing but death, division, wars and misery for the past two thousand fukkin' years....??? The fact that it contradicts itself almost continually has been what has led to the many 'misreadings' of the text and the fact that even Christians themselves cannot agree on what the bloody thing actually means, therefore you have about a hundred different 'Christian' Churches all saying their way is the right one and that everyone else are 'heathens' and 'heretics'... The fact that it is leaving out all this important information about the universe about millions of years of the history of the planet is proof to me that it is NOT something we should be taking at face value or putting any of our faith or energy into... Christianity, Islam, Judaism are FATALLY FLAWED CONCEPTS..... You (rightly) criticise Islam so much, and yet seem to make excuses for the flaws and excesses of Christianity, is it any wonder Russ thinks you're a fanatical Christian zealot....?

Because in this forum it seems that all evils of the world are being credited to a simple book... And in my opinion this is in the same fanatism level of those who call anyone who puts any doubt to it as heretical demoniac creatures. Look to the supposed higly evolved non-judeo-christian civilizations like Romans and Greeks were far from flawless and they had their own massacres. And look how the 2 biggest disasters on our history were not Bible-christian related at all, and still today there are some people who heired the convictions of 20th century nazis and still are professed atheist, and they hate homossexuals more then any so-called christian in this world. It is a very simplistic view to put all the guilty to one single book. And I think I have the right to defend my point of view after all, and so far all my posts have been just proportional to the questions I´ve replied. I don´t see any fanatism here, and where have I used one single verse of this book to justify any of my opinions, or have I demonstrated any hate or disguise for homossexuals and non-believers?

and a homophobic zealot at that... who bizarrely considers gays abnormal and 'tolerable'.... :blink:

 

Oh well, just because I´m not wanting to have sex to another men at this moment and have noted a simple fact that most heterossexuals aren´t, it makes me a homophobic? My "phobia" for homossexuals isn´t 1/10th of the phobia you demonstrate for anything that is remotely linked to religion or faith, and as for being "abnormal" it depens on how you define this word. Homossexuality is a characteristic that is only present in a minority in human and animal species and I´m not being homophobic by recognising a fact that is easily perceived in nature.

i dont think that homosexuality in animals exists... its always male animals and all they are doing is shagging owt that moves! is a dog humping your leg a 'homophile'?.. no, its just pleasuring itself on something that available.

i dont think that homosexuality in animals exists... its always male animals and all they are doing is shagging owt that moves! is a dog humping your leg a 'homophile'?.. no, its just pleasuring itself on something that available.

 

There really is scientifical evidence for homossexuality in animals, but I guess the absence of any natural lubrificant is a big dificulty for their species...

There really is scientifical evidence for homossexuality in animals, but I guess the absence of any natural lubrificant is a big dificulty for their species...

 

 

i suppose it depends upon what the scientific definition of animal homosexuality is! does a homosexual male act (as certain camp gay humans do.. but not all) in an efeminate way? are there lesbian animals?.. i think not, so if its a male preserve then i think its nothing more then animals doing what they do best.... shag. i know of no male animals that ONLY hump other males..

Because in this forum it seems that all evils of the world are being credited to a simple book... And in my opinion this is in the same fanatism level of those who call anyone who puts any doubt to it as heretical demoniac creatures. Look to the supposed higly evolved non-judeo-christian civilizations like Romans and Greeks were far from flawless and they had their own massacres. And look how the 2 biggest disasters on our history were not Bible-christian related at all, and still today there are some people who heired the convictions of 20th century nazis and still are professed atheist, and they hate homossexuals more then any so-called christian in this world. It is a very simplistic view to put all the guilty to one single book. And I think I have the right to defend my point of view after all, and so far all my posts have been just proportional to the questions I´ve replied. I don´t see any fanatism here, and where have I used one single verse of this book to justify any of my opinions, or have I demonstrated any hate or disguise for homossexuals and non-believers?

 

Well, as you put it, the Romans and Greeks had their own religions, and the Romans in particular used it as a justification for invasion of 'Barbarian' countries who did not share those beliefs... So, it would seem that religion of whatever hue is the most destructive force in History... As for Nazism, well, Neo-Nazis in particular these days have very twisted religious beliefs, their "God/Christ" figure just happens to be Hitler, their "bible" is 'Mein Kampf'... How is that any different to any other fanatical religious or faith-based belief system (the belief that a certain race is superior is essentially the same thing as belief that a certain religious dogma is superior.. Both are based on a fanatical, irrational belief. When Jesse Owens p!ssed on Hitler's "master race" in the '38 Olympics, it did not divert his course one iota, a rationalist empirical scientist would have admitted he was wrong)....? Hitler wasn't necessarily destroying faith or religion, he wanted to create a new one in many respects.... Nope, sorry, you are never gonna convince me that religion, whatever its form, is anything other than entirely destructive and wholly negative.... And you also miss out the fact that many of the White Supremacists in places such as the US go around using the biblical texts to justify their hatred of any non-white race....

Well, as you put it, the Romans and Greeks had their own religions, and the Romans in particular used it as a justification for invasion of 'Barbarian' countries who did not share those beliefs... So, it would seem that religion of whatever hue is the most destructive force in History... As for Nazism, well, Neo-Nazis in particular these days have very twisted religious beliefs, their "God/Christ" figure just happens to be Hitler, their "bible" is 'Mein Kampf'... How is that any different to any other fanatical religious or faith-based belief system (the belief that a certain race is superior is essentially the same thing as belief that a certain religious dogma is superior.. Both are based on a fanatical, irrational belief. When Jesse Owens p!ssed on Hitler's "master race" in the '38 Olympics, it did not divert his course one iota, a rationalist empirical scientist would have admitted he was wrong)....? Hitler wasn't necessarily destroying faith or religion, he wanted to create a new one in many respects.... Nope, sorry, you are never gonna convince me that religion, whatever its form, is anything other than entirely destructive and wholly negative.... And you also miss out the fact that many of the White Supremacists in places such as the US go around using the biblical texts to justify their hatred of any non-white race....

 

Neo-nazis are not religious people, to be considered a religion it needs to have metaphysical beliefs, which doesn´t happen, and their "doctrine" seem to be plausible from the evolutionist point of view.

I ignore any text in Bible with references to a supposed "white supremacy", and if some idiot want to use texts out of context and change its original meaning its only his problem. Religion is not "entirely destructive and wholly negative", its human beings who do that, and by the way you think the holocaust, 9/11, World Wars 1 & 2 were all about people´s religions... yeah, certainly it has nothing to do with money and power, it´s all because people´s religion. I don´t expect you to recognise millions of good things done by christians everywhere, it´s obviously something not interesting enough to appear on newspapers, but there are actually thousands, if not millions of organizations who work a lot to help other human beings, and people who dedicate their entire lives without receiving 1 cent for it. For every example of misuse of religion in history there are 100 of people who had their lives changed for better.... people who stop drinking, taking drugs, gave up on suicide thoughts, people who find new reasons to live. Then if they just give up on it because of the arguments of people who only see negativity on christianity, the very same people who convinced them will be the 1st ones to turn their back on them and ignore their problems... they get back to "reality" of being nothing more then one more evolved animal counting its days to invevitable death, in a world that is completely indiferent to them and their irrelevant problems.

Neo-nazis are not religious people, to be considered a religion it needs to have metaphysical beliefs, which doesn´t happen, and their "doctrine" seem to be plausible from the evolutionist point of view.

I ignore any text in Bible with references to a supposed "white supremacy", and if some idiot want to use texts out of context and change its original meaning its only his problem. Religion is not "entirely destructive and wholly negative", its human beings who do that, and by the way you think the holocaust, 9/11, World Wars 1 & 2 were all about people´s religions... yeah, certainly it has nothing to do with money and power, it´s all because people´s religion. I don´t expect you to recognise millions of good things done by christians everywhere, it´s obviously something not interesting enough to appear on newspapers, but there are actually thousands, if not millions of organizations who work a lot to help other human beings, and people who dedicate their entire lives without receiving 1 cent for it. For every example of misuse of religion in history there are 100 of people who had their lives changed for better.... people who stop drinking, taking drugs, gave up on suicide thoughts, people who find new reasons to live. Then if they just give up on it because of the arguments of people who only see negativity on christianity, the very same people who convinced them will be the 1st ones to turn their back on them and ignore their problems... they get back to "reality" of being nothing more then one more evolved animal counting its days to invevitable death, in a world that is completely indiferent to them and their irrelevant problems.

 

Religion is just a crutch... People should give up on the things you mention because of family and friends, not because of some mythical 'God' construct... And if you think we really are something more than 'evolved animals counting the days until death', then frankly you're deluding yourself... Our pathetic delusions of granduer, like we're some kind of 'divine beings' somehow 'better' than any other lifeform, is what's led to the fukked up situation the planet is in now. We should be one with nature and the planet, at one point in our history, we were, and we accepted the fact that we were just part of the ecosystem, not something that was somehow better than it... And your views on non-religious people are really quite pathetic to be honest... What, only people who follow some kind of 'God' are capable of caring about their fellow human being..? Rubbish.. There are plenty of non-religious organisations and charities out there that do a lot of good work.... And unlike a lot of Christian organisations and Missionaries, they dont expect people from different cultures and traditions to go along to Western Christian Church services or bible-readings just to show their 'gratitude'.... Christian Organisations quite often use charity as a caveat to 'spread their Gospel'... It's not totally altruistic mate, dont fool yourself for a minute... Look at Africa, the Christian Missionaries who went out there in the 19th Century completely fukked-up that continent if you ask me and now you have a totally bizarre and really messed up interpretation of the bible and Koran out there which is entirely ruinous... The Church says "Dont Use Condoms" - so now you have a bloody AIDS pandemic going on.... Sterling fukkin' work, I must say.... <_< If that's 'doing good work', then frankly I dont want any part of it.... I choose to give to charities that dont have an underlying religious theme....

 

Yes, money and power are also factors, important ones too... But, essentially, the likes of Bush and Bin Laden are using their screwed up religious beliefs to fuel their murderous intentions.... Both believe that "God is on my side"..... On every Dollar bill you see the legend "In God We Trust".... Says it all really... Christianity and Capitalism, two sides of the same coin.... In a very literal sense....

And if you think we really are something more than 'evolved animals counting the days until death', then frankly you're deluding yourself... Our pathetic delusions of granduer, like we're some kind of 'divine beings' somehow 'better' than any other lifeform, is what's led to the fukked up situation the planet is in now. We should be one with nature and the planet, at one point in our history, we were, and we accepted the fact that we were just part of the ecosystem, not something that was somehow better than it...

So it´s because ancient pagans knew how to integrate with nature, while the always bad-boy christianity started to destroy the planet... Surely it has nothing to do with technology evolving???

 

And your views on non-religious people are really quite pathetic to be honest... What, only people who follow some kind of 'God' are capable of caring about their fellow human being..?

I didn´t say that.

 

Yes, money and power are also factors, important ones too... But, essentially, the likes of Bush and Bin Laden are using their screwed up religious beliefs to fuel their murderous intentions.... Both believe that "God is on my side"..... On every Dollar bill you see the legend "In God We Trust".... Says it all really... Christianity and Capitalism, two sides of the same coin.... In a very literal sense....

It´s quite childish to blame Bush´s actions on christianity, and as I have already said I really doubt that he cares a bit about God or whatever spiritual. He just speaks what his electors want to hear. None of these "murderous intentions" are any legitimate from the christian doctrine and it´s calunious to sugest that. Christianity has nothing to do with capitalism, that´s bull$h!t. Just because it´s the religion that eventually became majority in the capitalist countries doesn´t mean it has a direct relation. Whatever people do using a flag of the cross doesn´t need to have a direct relation with religion. I think your views on religion and religious people in general are flawed, because you only see the bad side and completely ignore what´s good. If it does good to the individual person then it´s already good, if people remain voluntarily on it and feel happy they are receiving something good, people are not obrigate to give up on their beliefs because one idiot here and there decides to do pathetic stuff using the flag of a particular religion, and as always if 1,000 good things happen and only 1 bad thing happen, then bad thing eventually will be reported in the news more then the other 1,000 together.

as Scott quite rightly states, religion is usually a crutch for rather lonely, sad, introverted, conservative, socially inept people.

 

Socially able people don't feel the need to confess all to a stranger, to talk to themselves, to cling to plastic beads or to visit hideously ornate warehouses to solve their problems - that's what REAL friends and REAL family are for.

 

Personally, I'd rather devote my time, energy, love and faith in my family and friends.... as opposed to the religious lot devoting all theirs to their invisible one....

Religion is just a crutch... People should give up on the things you mention because of family and friends, not because of some mythical 'God' construct... And if you think we really are something more than 'evolved animals counting the days until death', then frankly you're deluding yourself... Our pathetic delusions of granduer, like we're some kind of 'divine beings' somehow 'better' than any other lifeform, is what's led to the fukked up situation the planet is in now. We should be one with nature and the planet, at one point in our history, we were, and we accepted the fact that we were just part of the ecosystem, not something that was somehow better than it...

 

excellant post there scott :).... bang on!

 

terrance mc kenner narated a very interesting text on the shamens 'boss drum' album, track 10, 're-evolution'... he talks about 'mans war with nature'.. too true...

 

I didn´t say that.

 

You certainly implied that mate... I do believe your words were "Then if they just give up on it because of the arguments of people who only see negativity on christianity, the very same people who convinced them will be the 1st ones to turn their back on them and ignore their problems...", how else am I supposed to interpret that....? You very much implied that non-religious people would not be interested in the problems of others, a totally false statement IMO.. You also totally ignore the facts that there are countless examples of 'Good Christian' people who will turn their backs on a son or daughter who will come out and say that they're gay or lesbian or that they've had an abortion .. Another FACT that you cannot deny...

 

As for the likes of Bush, well, I'm sorry, but you are wrong if you dont think he and his cronies uses THEIR dogmatic religious views in exactly the same way as the likes of Bin Laden or Ahmadinejad do... What the hell is the proposed anti-abortion and anti-Gay legislation all about then...? And I do believe that it was Bush himself who referred to the "Crusades" (yeah, like we should really believe that was 'accidental'....) in relation to the "War on Terror"... And if all those 'good Christian' people out there object to the way that politicians and others (ab)use their beliefs and their faith, well, just why the fukk do they keep voting in these bloody cretins then...? Why dont they rise up against them and overthrow them...? Why dont they take to the streets in their millions and protest and say openly and very loudly "You people do NOT speak for us"...? The ONLY Christians I have any modicum of respect for are the Quakers, because they have always maintained their principles and actually walk it like they talk it, and they've never been afraid to stand up against Govts either....

As for the likes of Bush, well, I'm sorry, but you are wrong if you dont think he and his cronies uses THEIR dogmatic religious views in exactly the same way as the likes of Bin Laden or Ahmadinejad do... What the hell is the proposed anti-abortion and anti-Gay legislation all about then...?

 

You know what pisses me off most about Bush, he says that homosexual marriages won't endure like heterosexual relatinships do. Not to offend anyone that is straight, but don't thousands of couples get divorced daily? So where the f***, is the logic in that one.

 

Anyways, in a sense I believe that I was born gay. I have never been attracted to a woman in a sexual nature, and I don't think I ever will...no matter how hard I attempt it. I knew that I liked guys when I was a in kindergarten! And then for these old, staright men to get up and tell me that I have a mental disorder or something like that is absolutely degrading!

 

You know what pisses me off most about Bush, he says that homosexual marriages won't endure like heterosexual relatinships do. Not to offend anyone that is straight, but don't thousands of couples get divorced daily? So where the f***, is the logic in that one.

 

Anyways, in a sense I believe that I was born gay. I have never been attracted to a woman in a sexual nature, and I don't think I ever will...no matter how hard I attempt it. I knew that I liked guys when I was a in kindergarten! And then for these old, staright men to get up and tell me that I have a mental disorder or something like that is absolutely degrading!

 

Didn't you say since becoming a Christian you wanted to be straight?

Yes well I am a Christian, but the being straight thing is impossible.

as Scott quite rightly states, religion is usually a crutch for rather lonely, sad, introverted, conservative, socially inept people.

 

Socially able people don't feel the need to confess all to a stranger, to talk to themselves, to cling to plastic beads or to visit hideously ornate warehouses to solve their problems - that's what REAL friends and REAL family are for.

 

Personally, I'd rather devote my time, energy, love and faith in my family and friends.... as opposed to the religious lot devoting all theirs to their invisible one....

 

And that explains the fact that depression, suicide thoughts, and reading books about helping yourself are way less popular among religious people... scientifically proved. It must be why in mainly atheist countries like Japan or Finlad you get a much bigger average suicides, and people with a much colder social life (or even people who have 300 "friends" but not one they can call brother or confident.) I´d rather have 5 close friends whose mothers I can call my mother, then 300 friends of drinking and party who probably don´t even know my complete name and will get distant when the 1st problems appears. I never knew someone who uses religion as a substitute to family and friends.

And that explains the fact that depression, suicide thoughts, and reading books about helping yourself are way less popular among religious people... scientifically proved. It must be why in mainly atheist countries like Japan or Finlad you get a much bigger average suicides, and people with a much colder social life (or even people who have 300 "friends" but not one they can call brother or confident.) I´d rather have 5 close friends whose mothers I can call my mother, then 300 friends of drinking and party who probably don´t even know my complete name and will get distant when the 1st problems appears. I never knew someone who uses religion as a substitute to family and friends.

 

fukkin hell talk about stereotyping :rolleyes: the idea that you have to be a bible basher to have REAL friends is utterly absurd not to mention patronising, I am non religious and have a very wide circle of friends some of who I have known for 20 odd years, some who I have helped when they have had problems, some who have helped me when I have had problems, my very best friends I would take a bullet for so the idea that they are fake shallow friends who would desert me just because I don't read the bible is deeply offensive not only to me but to them. Please engage your brain in future before spouting such condascending rubbish :rolleyes:

Edited February 28, 200718 yr by Vic Vega

You certainly implied that mate... I do believe your words were "Then if they just give up on it because of the arguments of people who only see negativity on christianity, the very same people who convinced them will be the 1st ones to turn their back on them and ignore their problems...", how else am I supposed to interpret that....? You very much implied that non-religious people would not be interested in the problems of others, a totally false statement IMO.. You also totally ignore the facts that there are countless examples of 'Good Christian' people who will turn their backs on a son or daughter who will come out and say that they're gay or lesbian or that they've had an abortion .. Another FACT that you cannot deny...

 

As for the likes of Bush, well, I'm sorry, but you are wrong if you dont think he and his cronies uses THEIR dogmatic religious views in exactly the same way as the likes of Bin Laden or Ahmadinejad do... What the hell is the proposed anti-abortion and anti-Gay legislation all about then...? And I do believe that it was Bush himself who referred to the "Crusades" (yeah, like we should really believe that was 'accidental'....) in relation to the "War on Terror"... And if all those 'good Christian' people out there object to the way that politicians and others (ab)use their beliefs and their faith, well, just why the fukk do they keep voting in these bloody cretins then...? Why dont they rise up against them and overthrow them...? Why dont they take to the streets in their millions and protest and say openly and very loudly "You people do NOT speak for us"...? The ONLY Christians I have any modicum of respect for are the Quakers, because they have always maintained their principles and actually walk it like they talk it, and they've never been afraid to stand up against Govts either....

 

Because the notion of a "kingdom of God" in christianity is separated from the secular power. Each elector has it´s own mind and it´s not a particular chuch or denomination that should chose their canditates for them. Certainly there are tons of christians who are opposite to GWB for example... They just won´t use the banner of their religion or their church to defend their political ideas. GWB just uses the terminology that makes him electable in America. The gay marriage thing remains a very unpopular thing and defending that would be suicide for his political career. Same with the aborption, and by the way I think killing someone is wrong regardless of your religious beliefs so I think aborption is a stupid crime anyway.

And that explains the fact that depression, suicide thoughts, and reading books about helping yourself are way less popular among religious people... scientifically proved. It must be why in mainly atheist countries like Japan or Finlad you get a much bigger average suicides, and people with a much colder social life (or even people who have 300 "friends" but not one they can call brother or confident.) I´d rather have 5 close friends whose mothers I can call my mother, then 300 friends of drinking and party who probably don´t even know my complete name and will get distant when the 1st problems appears. I never knew someone who uses religion as a substitute to family and friends.

 

 

oh PLEASE!!!!!!!

 

Are you telling me that the evil Catholic church, with its levelling of guilt to its 'followers' hasn't caused MASSIVE suicide rates amongst especially the young gay Catholics?

 

You're talking religious twaddle.

 

Absolute, utter twaddle.

 

And as for your very thoughtful 'tolerance' of these heinous gays.... I BARELY tolerate people as conservative, pious and nonsensical (ie. religious) as you. How dare a fictional book and your lack of social skills make you think you have the right to judge and condemn others.