My Asian friend didn't find the pictures offensive and said she thought they were funny

 

... no im not offended by political cartoons depicting anything, if its done for satirical purposes and not as a weapon of hatred. that is a grey area i guess and is open to interpretation.

 

i dare say that muslim presses have cartoons/writings preaching hatred/satire against the west, but we deserve it dont we? after all its only the west who have ever interfered or invaded a foreign country! muslims have NEVER done that have they! lol.

 

 

 

I think some Muslims do take offense over anything. They let thier religion down because they know the papers will stir it up and cause tension between their culture and Christians cultures

They were only 'not taken much notice of' because the press for the most part chose not to give them the oxygen of publicity, but make no mistake, they did make a hell of a lot of fuss... And as I say, talk to Marilyn Manson or any other Rock Star about the US Christian Far Right...

 

And if you honestly think those cartoons were not offensive, well that presumably means you have no problems with the Nazis presenting Jews as 'sinister, hook-nosed kikes' in poster campaigns or in 'cartoon form' in Pro-Nazi literature and propaganda and whatnot, or Indians and Africans being portrayed as 'uncivilised savages/n***ers/fuzzy-wuzzies/wogs' in 'cartoon form' in countless British newspapers and magazines in the 19th Century... It's EXACTLY the same thing in my eyes... Ignorant white Europeans talking about something they have NO understanding of (and please dont give me this rubbish about 'different times, different attitudes' like THAT is some sort of excuse for oppression, subjugation, invasion and wholesale MURDER of indigenous peoples in their own bloody countries ffs... It was just plain WRONG end of story. Hell, even slavery had been abolished in Britain a hundred years previously, so people must have, on some level, known that it was entirely wrong to dehumanize a race of people in Victorian Britain; and just maybe that some of what we're discussing now is a result of some sort of cosmic 'payback' for how previous generations acted, dont suppose that ever occurred to you. If it is, well, you cant say we dont really deserve it, what goes around comes around dunnit..?)... What does the average Danish or European person know about Arabic culture..? You just dont realise how things like this can be used and abused because you are white and you have NEVER been the victim of prejudice or discrimination, so you cannot possibly know how a person of colour feels... Try reading up on some Post-Colonial studies (Edward Said and his theories on 'Orientalism' is a good place to start) some time and then talk to me about the 'innocence' of how ordinary people are being represented... It's totally different to satirising a Political leader, Political leaders are not representatives of an entire race or an entire culture, they are transient historical figures; the Danish cartoons were offending an entire culture, not just taking the p*** out of a political leader or Party... BIG, BIG difference....

 

And like I said, it was totally different to what Palin, Cleese, Chapman and Co did in the 70s, "Life of Brian" was the product of a group of people brought up in the Christian tradition, they had knowlege both of their subject and of history in general (several of them actually possessing History degrees..), so in every way, they knew exactly what they were talking about, as do satirists such as Rory Bremner when they tear a strip off Bush or B-Liar... The Danish "satirists" did not and did not even attempt to understand the Arabic people or culture... BIG difference.... This is the very essence of Racism IMO...

 

''because you are white and you have NEVER been the victim of prejudice or discrimination, so you cannot possibly know how a person of colour feels..''

 

I feel this comment is just plain pathetic, you dont have to be of colour t experience racism. At primary school I was pretty much an out cast and bullied because I was white! I was at a school where 90% of the pupils were Asian.

 

Racism does occur to white people, your statement was just wrong

I ent dissing muslims here because I know that most of them are bare safe, and you get religious nuts everywhere, but Grimly, you cant just go around sayin white people dont know how it feels to be racist. I find that comment offensive

And why do you have to be so patronising in your arguments! You type like you know everything, it seems like youve swalled a bloody dictionary! Im off anyways! cant get into any more arguments :angry:

They were only 'not taken much notice of' because the press for the most part chose not to give them the oxygen of publicity, but make no mistake, they did make a hell of a lot of fuss... And as I say, talk to Marilyn Manson or any other Rock Star about the US Christian Far Right...

Marilyn Manson has release an album entitled "Antichrist superstar" and have destroyed a Bible in an MTV show watched by millions in USA... I am not offended by that, but you can hardly say he didn´t expect ANY reaction. Now can you imagine if an artist of the same popularity had released an album called "anti-Mohammed superstar" and destroyed a Kuran in an MTV show? Would he have courage to do that? And that its talking about USA where christianity is the religion of the majority and islam is just a tiny minority... Now imagine if a similar show was aired in a Muslim nation, even if one of the most liberal? Or even in a country like Philipinnes where just 5% of the population is muslim.

 

About the cartoons happening I agree there was some sort of masquerade racism or anti-islamic attitude maybe, and the whole histeric reaction did not start right after they were published, but after several subsequent facts. If the journal had just appologised and forgot about it it´s possible we wouldn´t have even heard about it. But this is just one in an ocean of facts about this subject. Remember people from islamic countries don´t think about the press the same way we do. Freedom of speech is not a principle used in islamic nations.

Edited March 8, 200718 yr by Janet Jackson´s Nipple

My Asian friend didn't find the pictures offensive and said she thought they were funny

 

Well, that's up to her, and in any case, she's Asian, not Arabic, and you also have to factor in whether she is a practicing Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Sikh, or a Bhuddist, just saying she's 'Asian' tells me nothing... Totally different races Arabic and Asian anyway (and the cartoons were quite obviously anti-Arabic)... A bit like saying Japanese and Chinese is the same...

 

I ent dissing muslims here because I know that most of them are bare safe, and you get religious nuts everywhere, but Grimly, you cant just go around sayin white people dont know how it feels to be racist. I find that comment offensive

 

Okay, I'll rephrase what I said (and in any case, I was replying to Rob, not you...). White people in Britain have no idea how it feels to be the victims of institutional racism... I'm betting you've never been stopped and searched by coppers because of the colour of your skin, I'm betting you've never been denied a job on race grounds... What happened to you as a kid in school is irrelevant to the purposes of this debate in any case.. If you'd been the only kid in the class with a speech impediment or a learning disability, you would've been targeted because of that.... Kids are evil little b/astards who'll gang up on anyone for any reason, I somehow very much doubt there was some sort of political or ideological motive behind the reason you were targeted

 

And why do you have to be so patronising in your arguments! You type like you know everything, it seems like youve swalled a bloody dictionary! Im off anyways! cant get into any more arguments :angry:

 

I think you'll find that Craig was having a go at you a lot more than I was as far as this debate goes, and yet you say nothing to him... Frankly, I'm frankly getting real sick of your attitude mate, you're as bad as El Pres, a waste of space spamming up the Forum with bullsh!t.... <_< If you dont like your views being challenged, stay the hell out of this forum, simple as....

 

And if you think my posts are bad, you'd better not even attempt to read any of Janet Jackson's Nipple's posts, your brain would likely explode...

 

In any case, this is NOT a Forum for you to be 'entertained', this is for serious adult debate and serious adult debate actually involves the ability to string two ideas and a sentence together, know what I mean...? we've said it to El Pres, and now I'm saying it to you, if you cant handle it, no one is asking you to stay....

Marilyn Manson has release an album entitled "Antichrist superstar" and have destroyed a Bible in an MTV show watched by millions in USA... I am not offended by that, but you can hardly say he didn´t expect ANY reaction. Now can you imagine if an artist of the same popularity had released an album called "anti-Mohammed superstar" and destroyed a Kuran in an MTV show? Would he have courage to do that? And that its talking about USA where christianity is the religion of the majority and islam is just a tiny minority... Now imagine if a similar show was aired in a Muslim nation, even if one of the most liberal? Or even in a country like Philipinnes where just 5% of the population is muslim.

 

About the cartoons happening I agree there was some sort of masquerade racism or anti-islamic attitude maybe, and the whole histeric reaction did not start right after they were published, but after several subsequent facts. If the journal had just appologised and forgot about it it´s possible we wouldn´t have even heard about it. But this is just one in an ocean of facts about this subject. Remember people from islamic countries don´t think about the press the same way we do. Freedom of speech is not a principle used in islamic nations.

 

To be honest JJN, I dont actually think 'freedom of speech/freedom of the press' is an idea which Western Nations are holding very much to either these days... Look at the media, huge, great chunks of it owned and controlled by a very small number of individuals... As for 'Freedom of Speech', well, just try to wave an anti-war placard in Parliament Square these days or read out the names of dead soldiers at the Cenotaph, and you'll very quickly get bundled into a van full of coppers and be held by police under the provisions in the Anti-Terrorism Act FFS!!!! :angry: Dont kid yourself that 'freedom' is anything other than an illusion...

 

Maybe MM had to expect a reaction to his actions (which were just publicity stunts anyway, let's face it, anyone with any fukkin' sense would realise that.....), but by the same token, surely Salman Rushdie did also when he wrote the "Satanic Verses", no........?

 

Put it this way -

 

Rushdie - Academic presenting his research as being empirical and based in fact

The Media - With the power to direct public opinion

Politicians - The mandate to create laws which have a DIRECT impact upon the citizens of a country

Marilyn Manson - A publicity-seeking Rock Star engaging in shock tactics and theatrics

 

Far right Christians who react in such a violent and irrational manner to the likes of Manson are behaving vastly more unreasonable and just plain stupid than Muslims who react 'irrationally' to the actions of politicians and the media IMO.... Manson has no power to make laws, he has no franchise, he doesn't control the media, he's not presenting his body of work as empirical evidence... He's an entertainer, he has no responsibility to society the way the others do...

But popular artists and the media with "power to direct public´s opinion" walk hand in hand... teenagers and kids are certainly influenced by MTV and stuff. Remember it was reported recently in a BBC humour show they throwed a Bible in the garbage... Well, I´m all for freedom to express your ideas in an artistic way but I somehow doubt they´d have courage to do the same with a Kuran. In the UK it´s fashionable to dislike christianity, and popular artists and the media walk hand in hand. They drive public opinion, and also, it´s usually the media who choses which artists will be popular and which will remain unknown. Of course I´m not deluded thinking we have 100% of freedom in the ocident... but be honest, it´s not comparable to the situation in practically ALL islamic countries. In countries like Saudi Arabia you can´t even express an opinion contrary to islam publically... and that includes being atheist or having a different religion. You just have to keep these ideas on your mind and don´t talk to anyone. HARDLY the same situation as you have in UK and US, right? In fact, in the UK if you profess the majoritary stablished religion you´ll likely to receive more criticism then if you are in a minority group or an atheist. This is a direct result of how our cultures have been developed... Even tough every religion has been used as a strategy by the secular power in history of every civilization, in the phylosophic essence of christianity secular power and church are completely distinct things, and no person at all has a permission to take on violent acts to spread the religion. While in islam is a totally different paradigm. Religion and state are the same thing in this culture, there is no such separation. Power is given to the authority to "defend" its religion. Things such as religious freedom, or freedom of speech will never be possible in an islamic nation. Bring on the racism allegations, but it´s not the matter.... Islam is a religion of more then 1 billion people, black, asian, white, european, etc. It has nothing to do with race.

But popular artists and the media with "power to direct public´s opinion" walk hand in hand... teenagers and kids are certainly influenced by MTV and stuff. Remember it was reported recently in a BBC humour show they throwed a Bible in the garbage... Well, I´m all for freedom to express your ideas in an artistic way but I somehow doubt they´d have courage to do the same with a Kuran. In the UK it´s fashionable to dislike christianity, and popular artists and the media walk hand in hand. They drive public opinion, and also, it´s usually the media who choses which artists will be popular and which will remain unknown. Of course I´m not deluded thinking we have 100% of freedom in the ocident... but be honest, it´s not comparable to the situation in practically ALL islamic countries. In countries like Saudi Arabia you can´t even express an opinion contrary to islam publically... and that includes being atheist or having a different religion. You just have to keep these ideas on your mind and don´t talk to anyone. HARDLY the same situation as you have in UK and US, right? In fact, in the UK if you profess the majoritary stablished religion you´ll likely to receive more criticism then if you are in a minority group or an atheist. This is a direct result of how our cultures have been developed... Even tough every religion has been used as a strategy by the secular power in history of every civilization, in the phylosophic essence of christianity secular power and church are completely distinct things, and no person at all has a permission to take on violent acts to spread the religion. While in islam is a totally different paradigm. Religion and state are the same thing in this culture, there is no such separation. Power is given to the authority to "defend" its religion. Things such as religious freedom, or freedom of speech will never be possible in an islamic nation. Bring on the racism allegations, but it´s not the matter.... Islam is a religion of more then 1 billion people, black, asian, white, european, etc. It has nothing to do with race.

 

I agree with everything you just said in relation to Islam... You know why, because you focussed your entire argument on the Religion and how the States concerned manipulate things, and did not engage in a wholly offensive tirade against actual Muslim people themselves, which is exactly what the politicians, the media and those piece of sh"t cartoons did.... BIG difference....

 

And I'm sorry, but I dont believe for a minute that someone is going to seriously become a 'Satanist' just because some rock star says so... That is just nonsense... You want another example of the unreasonable actions of fundamentalist Christians..? Back in the 60s, John Lennon once joked that The Beatles were "bigger than Jesus"..... Cue lots of organised burnings of Beatles albums all over the Southern Bible Belt states.... In the 80s, a bunch of Evangelical types (headed by Tipper Gore, wife of Former Vice President Al Gore...) headed up an organisation called the PMRC (Parents Musical Resource Centre), a bunch of right wing Christian idiots who were responsible for the 'Parental Guidance' stickers on Metal and Rap albums (and they actually lobbied to BAN Metal and Rap music at one point..) which would bloody well RUIN the fukkin' album cover artwork if you actually tried to remove the b/astards.... <_< Cheers...... Thankfully husband Al as soon as he took office told Tipper to shut the fukk up with the PMRC c**p (well, you couldn't very well have a "Rock and Roll" President along with a VP's wife who was attempting to ban the actual music, could you...?) and the group quickly disappeared up its own arse.... :lol: But seriously, I was a big Metal fan in the 80s, there were seriously dark times when it actually looked as though censorship could conceivably occur....

But popular artists and the media with "power to direct public´s opinion" walk hand in hand... teenagers and kids are certainly influenced by MTV and stuff. Remember it was reported recently in a BBC humour show they throwed a Bible in the garbage... Well, I´m all for freedom to express your ideas in an artistic way but I somehow doubt they´d have courage to do the same with a Kuran. In the UK it´s fashionable to dislike christianity, and popular artists and the media walk hand in hand. They drive public opinion, and also, it´s usually the media who choses which artists will be popular and which will remain unknown. Of course I´m not deluded thinking we have 100% of freedom in the ocident... but be honest, it´s not comparable to the situation in practically ALL islamic countries. In countries like Saudi Arabia you can´t even express an opinion contrary to islam publically... and that includes being atheist or having a different religion. You just have to keep these ideas on your mind and don´t talk to anyone. HARDLY the same situation as you have in UK and US, right? In fact, in the UK if you profess the majoritary stablished religion you´ll likely to receive more criticism then if you are in a minority group or an atheist. This is a direct result of how our cultures have been developed... Even tough every religion has been used as a strategy by the secular power in history of every civilization, in the phylosophic essence of christianity secular power and church are completely distinct things, and no person at all has a permission to take on violent acts to spread the religion. While in islam is a totally different paradigm. Religion and state are the same thing in this culture, there is no such separation. Power is given to the authority to "defend" its religion. Things such as religious freedom, or freedom of speech will never be possible in an islamic nation. Bring on the racism allegations, but it´s not the matter.... Islam is a religion of more then 1 billion people, black, asian, white, european, etc. It has nothing to do with race.

 

I'm getting worried...I actually AGREE with JJN :wacko:

 

But.... if we're talking fanatacism and far-right views pouring into religion... we need look no further than America and its frankly terrifying Christian Bible belt wackos..... hanging round abortion clinics, taking photos of the would-be mothers then pasting the posters of her round town..... lobbying rock concerts... violently hijacking peaceful gay demonstrations.... and paving their evil, twisted way to the White House with their 'Christian Universities' pupils, all of whom are frighteningly right wing, actually bordering on fascistic.

 

I'm more scared of the American Christians than I am of the Arab Muslims............

I'm getting worried...I actually AGREE with JJN :wacko:

 

But.... if we're talking fanatacism and far-right views pouring into religion... we need look no further than America and its frankly terrifying Christian Bible belt wackos..... hanging round abortion clinics, taking photos of the would-be mothers then pasting the posters of her round town..... lobbying rock concerts... violently hijacking peaceful gay demonstrations.... and paving their evil, twisted way to the White House with their 'Christian Universities' pupils, all of whom are frighteningly right wing, actually bordering on fascistic.

 

I'm more scared of the American Christians than I am of the Arab Muslims............

 

100% Truth....

 

You and me both mate.... I dont care what people say, we are FAR more influenced in this country by what goes on in America than we are by what goes on in Iran, Saudi Arabia or whatever other Muslim state you care to mention.... I mean, CHRIST, we entered into a bloody illegal WAR under the influence of the President of the USA ffs!!!! In the 80s, we stocked up our country with AMERICAN nuclear weapons of war (which it appears our wonderful 'democratically elected' leaders are about to repeat, despite overwhelming public opinion in opposition..), we go to the cinema to see predominately AMERICAN films, our culture is dominated by AMERICAN ideas, our language is becoming more and more dominated by AMERICAN phraseology.. Where the hell is this supposed "Muslim domination" then ffs????? If this country is dominated by any outside force, it is an AMERICAN force.... I do not see a single mainstream politician (apart from George Galloway) or any of these 'fringe loony parties' like the BNP or UKIP who bang on about "British Sovereignty" or "preserving Britishness" raising a voice in objection to this American domination of the UK, but Christ, they sure as hell p*** and moan about Europe and those 'nasty Muslims' dont they...?

 

So, how can Islam 'take over' something that has already been taken over....?

I'm more scared of the American Christians than I am of the Arab Muslims............

 

 

fully agree :)

As George Galloway's name has been brought up... here's some excerpts from his fantastic blistering speech to the US Senate regarding Iraq.... love him or loathe him, at least he has the balls to say it EXACTLY like it is...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Galloway#US_Senate

 

I especially like these:

 

"I have met Saddam Hussein exactly the same number of times as Donald Rumsfeld met him. The difference is that Donald Rumsfeld met him to sell him guns and to give him maps the better to target those guns. I met him to try and bring about an end to sanctions, suffering and war, and on the second of the two occasions, I met him to try and persuade him to let Dr Hans Blix and the United Nations weapons inspectors back into the country - a rather better use of two meetings with Saddam Hussein than your own Secretary of State for Defense made of his."

 

"Christianity doesn't come into it. George Bush and Tony Blair are not Christians. Religious people believe in the prophets, peace be upon them. Bush believes in the profits and how to get a piece of them. So don't ever confuse this with a war of civilizations." (BRILLIANT!)

 

And here's the full, unedited speech he made.... surely the definitive word on Iraq.... it's worth 10 minutes of everybody's time, this speech:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0517-35.htm

 

As George Galloway's name has been brought up... here's some excerpts from his fantastic blistering speech to the US Senate regarding Iraq.... love him or loathe him, at least he has the balls to say it EXACTLY like it is...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Galloway#US_Senate

 

I especially like these:

 

"I have met Saddam Hussein exactly the same number of times as Donald Rumsfeld met him. The difference is that Donald Rumsfeld met him to sell him guns and to give him maps the better to target those guns. I met him to try and bring about an end to sanctions, suffering and war, and on the second of the two occasions, I met him to try and persuade him to let Dr Hans Blix and the United Nations weapons inspectors back into the country - a rather better use of two meetings with Saddam Hussein than your own Secretary of State for Defense made of his."

 

"Christianity doesn't come into it. George Bush and Tony Blair are not Christians. Religious people believe in the prophets, peace be upon them. Bush believes in the profits and how to get a piece of them. So don't ever confuse this with a war of civilizations." (BRILLIANT!)

 

And here's the full, unedited speech he made.... surely the definitive word on Iraq.... it's worth 10 minutes of everybody's time, this speech:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0517-35.htm

 

I only disagree on him on one aspect, that Right Wing, zealot Christian views do come into Bush's ideology... He is a puppet of the Christian Right in America as much as he is a puppet of the Corporations...

 

I only disagree on him on one aspect, that Right Wing, zealot Christian views do come into Bush's ideology... He is a puppet of the Christian Right in America as much as he is a puppet of the Corporations...

 

 

agreed.... :)

I'll support a ban on the Burqa and the Hijab, ONLY if there is a ban on Jewish skullcaps, crucifixes, turbans, in fact ALL religious iconography....

 

He calls the Koran a 'vioent book'. He need to read his bible some time, particularly that wild and wacky "Revelations/End of Days/Armageddon" ending.... Fukkin' idiot..... <_< Sooner people like him realise that ALL religions are the problem and not just singling out ONE as being the 'bad one', the sooner I might take people like him a bit more seriously and not just dismiss them as a bunch of racist maggots...

I soo agree! I won't even go into this deeply coz I don't want to offend people, but I hate the way Islam people are being victimised even after the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks. Yh your scared, but they are also, and victims just like us. Its a small minority of people who decide to do these callous things. Plus there are many religions that kill and victimise others, yet they are not targetted as much...disgrace :(

Edited March 11, 200718 yr by AnastaciaInspirated