you are the one highlighting and exciting that... and how can it be possible if it defies all known science? knowlege and belief has to have a sound basis, even theories need a sound basis to make them credible.

"All known science" is something that changes all the time, since a few years ago Big Bang was THE theory, and now it´s the big crunch just like you stated. 100 years ago scientists thought that it was impossible that the universe had a creator since it was considered to be eternal, and not have a begining, a few decades later it all changed as the biggest scientists embraced the thought that the universe had a begining at some point in the past.

"All known science" is something that changes all the time, since a few years ago Big Bang was THE theory, and now it´s the big crunch just like you stated. 100 years ago scientists thought that it was impossible that the universe had a creator since it was considered to be eternal, and not have a begining, a few decades later it all changed as the biggest scientists embraced the thought that the universe had a begining at some point in the past.

 

the point is though that scientific understanding is progressing further as new knowlege is discovered. thats totally the opposite of all religions whos doctrine is fixed in medieval times.

Isn't the point of God and Religion faith? People who believe don't need scientific proof, because it is their own belief which makes them sure God exists? I'm not saying it's true or that I'm in any position to tell anyone that they're right or wrong ... but all I'm saying is that God COULD exist for believers, because they don't rely on fact, but purely belief?

 

I think even with all of the political aggro it can cause, religion can be brilliant - I think the option for people to just be able to say "I believe this, because I want to believe it, and I do" is amazing - I think that's a lot more powerful than fact in helping people make sense of things and getting them through difficult times.

 

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As for The Big Crunch - who knows. I find the whole concept of eternity , as many others seem to, completely baffling - I don't think I or most humans have the brain power to comprehend the potental of something having existed forever, and that it will exist forever - it just blows my mind. The way I see it, it's all very interesting, but I have no power to stop or alter what's going to happen, so whether I know what the real truth is or not is irrelevant :lol:

Isn't the point of God and Religion faith? People who believe don't need scientific proof, because it is their own belief which makes them sure God exists? I'm not saying it's true or that I'm in any position to tell anyone that they're right or wrong ... but all I'm saying is that God COULD exist for believers, because they don't rely on fact, but purely belief?

 

I think even with all of the political aggro it can cause, religion can be brilliant - I think the option for people to just be able to say "I believe this, because I want to believe it, and I do" is amazing - I think that's a lot more powerful than fact in helping people make sense of things and getting them through difficult times.

 

NO.... believing in something DOESNT make it a fact! like it or not reality IS based on scientific fact. this is the fundamental flaw with 'faith'.

 

'i believe i can fly'... go on then!...lol. get the picture?...

NO.... believing in something DOESNT make it a fact!

 

My point is exactly that! I'm saying that that is what's fascinating about faith - that it ISN'T fact, but it still has so much power.

 

My point is exactly that! I'm saying that that is what's fascinating about faith - that it ISN'T fact, but it still has so much power.

 

oh..i see.... :)

 

NO.... believing in something DOESNT make it a fact! like it or not reality IS based on scientific fact. this is the fundamental flaw with 'faith'.

 

'i believe i can fly'... go on then!...lol. get the picture?...

 

This concept is flawed, because, science doesn´t make reality, it only DISCOVERS reality. It was not science who made the gravity, it only discovered it, but gravity was already REAL before it was discovered, and even before human beings were here to notice it.

 

If we were to discard anything that has not been scientifically proven, then our views would be a lot limited since science is always evolving. We only have 5 senses, and that were given to us by evolution from other animal forms, so our mind can only capture what our biological body allow us to, and still very limited (example, there are thousands of different colours that cannot be viewed by human eyes).

 

Try explaining to someone who was born blind what is a colour, what is the difference of green and blue... it would be impossible. Then imagine if evolution had led our species to be completely blind (like many animal species), then we wouldn´t have any idea of what is colour, light, etc, but this things would still exist in nature without ever being felt or captured by our senses. Imagine how many things are there in the universe that we will never know simply because we don´t have the biological possibility to it. Of course, that´s no argument to convince anyone that God exists, but still I think the idea of denyng it completely as an impossibility is also dogmatic and religious. Concerning our scientifical knowledge, the most natural attitude would be agnosticism, at least until we discover where our universe came from and have a final answear.

 

Acording to Soren Kierkegaard, doubt is an essential part of faith. There is not point in having faith that the sun or the moon exists. Faith consists in commitment to something that you think is probably true, acording to this XIX century philosopher. If one knows for sure that God exists because of scientific proof, then faith disappeared. That´s why acording to St. Paul, the 3 biggest gifts to a man are faith, hope and love, but love is considered the biggest of them all - because it´s the only one that, acording to him, will last forever, cause faith and hope will end when they "see" God face to face, just like hope ends when the thing you wanted happens.

This concept is flawed, because, science doesn´t make reality, it only DISCOVERS reality. It was not science who made the gravity, it only discovered it, but gravity was already REAL before it was discovered, and even before human beings were here to notice it.

 

If we were to discard anything that has not been scientifically proven, then our views would be a lot limited since science is always evolving. We only have 5 senses, and that were given to us by evolution from other animal forms, so our mind can only capture what our biological body allow us to, and still very limited (example, there are thousands of different colours that cannot be viewed by human eyes).

 

Try explaining to someone who was born blind what is a colour, what is the difference of green and blue... it would be impossible. Then imagine if evolution had led our species to be completely blind (like many animal species), then we wouldn´t have any idea of what is colour, light, etc, but this things would still exist in nature without ever being felt or captured by our senses. Imagine how many things are there in the universe that we will never know simply because we don´t have the biological possibility to it. Of course, that´s no argument to convince anyone that God exists, but still I think the idea of denyng it completely as an impossibility is also dogmatic and religious. Concerning our scientifical knowledge, the most natural attitude would be agnosticism, at least until we discover where our universe came from and have a final answear.

 

Acording to Soren Kierkegaard, doubt is an essential part of faith. There is not point in having faith that the sun or the moon exists. Faith consists in commitment to something that you think is probably true, acording to this XIX century philosopher. If one knows for sure that God exists because of scientific proof, then faith disappeared. That´s why acording to St. Paul, the 3 biggest gifts to a man are faith, hope and love, but love is considered the biggest of them all - because it´s the only one that, acording to him, will last forever, cause faith and hope will end when they "see" God face to face, just like hope ends when the thing you wanted happens.

 

well its like a chicken and egg situation, yes gravity existed before our knowlege could recognise it and understand it... i didnt want to give the opposite impression.

 

i dont think you should discard anything per-se just because it cant be scientifically varified.

 

you should consider anything, but be sensible about its likelyhood and not accept it as truth/fact 'because you like the idea' . thats my fundamental agrument against any belief in any organised religion, passing off a nebulous notion of something uncertain as 'the truth'. it isnt. i dont agree in believing in something thats PROBABLY true, you cant unless its CERTAINLY true, and that has to be based on hardcore scientific fact.

 

we KNOW the sun and moon exists... we can see them! feel their effects and map them out planning where they WILL be at any point in the future.... THATS 'truth'.