how very patronisingly white middle class of you!!

well like I said they don't offend my black friend - if he isn't offended why should I be.

 

Am getting sick of being told what I should think! I have a brain and am able to use it to make considered decisions.

 

Just because you don't agree with my opinions doesn't make them wrong.

You patronising intellectual snob!!!!

 

maybe if you could participate in a "discussion" without the use of the f-word or blaming the tories I could take your opinions slightly more seriously!

 

eh?... where did THAT come from?.

 

im unaware that i was "telling you what to think",... nope...cant see that anywhere.. i did NOT quote you, nor did i refer to anything you put. in fact YOU are the one out of line here, i posted my opinion which might be contrary to yours but nowhere did i single you out for attack so why tf did you take it upon yourself to do it here?

 

i gave an honest account of this topic as i see it, and yes i guess i am a white middle class male... SO WHAT?

 

the whole subject of gollywogs isnt one that ive given much thought to prior to this thread, so if after reading the arguments is it sooooo high and mighty of me <_< to think that they ARE offensive?

 

you asked 1 black person... try asking a few more and that might give a more accurate insight as to wether they are or are not offensive.

Well Done, for falling, hook line & sinker for my clearly sarcistic post.

 

You really should know by now that I am a Labour supporter and the kiss off of me quoting Ann Widdecombe should have given the game away in bold capitals for you. But oh no, you have completely ignored my devils advocate post and waded in.

 

The whole point of my post was to show how ridiculous and politically correct it is to object to a toy. And your reply to my post proves it.

 

It is typical patronising do-goodism to make you feel better (It reminds me of the 1980s anti-apartheid political activists who went after South African born athlete with a UK passport of convenience Zola Budd instead of more credible targets like when South African ministers visited Margaret Thatcher), but hey to hell with the ugly racism that still exists in most southern states of the World's most dominant economy (that thinks it has a god damn right to tell the world how to run their government administrations and invades those weak enough that it thinks it can control), including the state that the idiot President of America comes from, forget about the fact that Afro Caribbeans make up 18% of Americas prison population, yet 63% of all Prisoners executed in the good ole USA are Afro-Caribbeans. Lets go ban a bloody doll. Whoopee doo.

 

Don't you think it would be far more constructive to highlight and address real issues of racial prejudice, that really count in today's society then get worked up about a bloody toy?

 

However the term "Wogg" is indisputably racist. But then again that is why the toy is being rebranded in the 21st Century as the "Golly".

 

I accept most of what you say, especially concerning America and the double standards that exist in the so-called "justice" system, but you are totally missing the point that it's when we are kids that our minds are moulded into thinking and believing certain things however unconcious that may be.. The "Gollywogg" and "Blackface" are clearly a product of racist white society who wanted to brainwash kids into believing blacks were inferior, sub-human and worthy of nothing other than contempt or ridicule, therefore the whole cycle of hatred would continue over and over.. NOTHING you can say will ever change my views on that, you cannot take this thing out of its historical and social contexts and try to somehow validate it, that's called "Historical Revisionism", something I object to in the strongest possible terms. Look at the Swastika - people now believe that it is an evil symbol simply because Hitler corrupted it, took it out of its original context as peaceful Hindu religious symbol, and turned it into something that it was never intended to be.. Like I say, Revisionism.... Another example, the image of the Crucified Christ is not the true symbol of Christianity, it is, in fact, the symbol of the Fish... More Revisionism...

 

You're a grown adult who should be able to see this simple fact, not a six year old kid who doesn't know any better and calls a black classmate a "gollywogg" without meaning to cause upset or offence, but, it happens regardless... Best not to take these sorts of chances with the feelings of little kids IMO, plenty of other toys out there for kids to play with, dont you think....? If I was a 6-year old now, and someone gave me a "Gollywogg" when all my mates had PSPs or Wiis or whatever, I'd frankly be totally disappointed.... :lol:

You patronising intellectual snob!!!!

 

maybe if you could participate in a "discussion" without the use of the f-word or blaming the tories I could take your opinions slightly more seriously!

 

Someone else who clearly doesn't actually READ what people say, otherwise you wouldn't actually be having a go at me and Rob for pointing out simple facts.... I wasn't trying to make out people were thick or anything, but wading through high-brow scholarly papers is NOT exactly 99.9 per cent of people on BJ's idea of much fun now is it...? I find that stuff hard going and tedious at times, and I'm studying a MASTERS level degree, so anyone unfamiliar with this sort of reading is going to find it, to say the least, intimidating and rather inpenetrable... Hence, making the whole debate a bit more approachable by posting a Wikipedia link in the hope that it would be a good way of introducing the concepts....

 

Got it now...?

 

And, I'm with Rob as well with regards to your other points, you've asked, what, ONE black person how they feel about being represented by the Gollywogg...?? I went to Uni with SCORES of ethnic minority, African and Afro-Caribbean students, I work with ethnic minority students, and I can pretty much assure you that NONE of them would be happy about what the Gollywogg represents, especially the Africans and Afro-Caribbeans, who would find it absolutely offensive... You sit in your relatively safe suburban English home where none of this affects or touches you, and it never really has.. For millions of Africans, the legacy of European Colonialism is still a very, very touchy and very real subject, the Western world continues to exploit the people of Africa, propping up vile, corrupt regimes, Corporatism has now replaced Colonialism. None of us have any right to say to an African that they should just take it when we denigrate them and disrespect them in this way. Like I say, noone would market an "Auschwitz Alvie" or a "Roger Rabbi" doll would they....? No, they would be labelled as "Anti-Semitic" or "Neo-Nazi", and pulled off the shelves quicker than you could say "Oi Vey!", and no one would be on Forums or chat rooms attempting to defend the manufacturers....

 

Managed that without any F-words...... :P

 

So, yeah, okay, call me an Intellectual Snob, call Rob "patronising Middle Class" if it makes you feel any better.... -_-

 

 

WELL THEN I GUESS WE SHOULD BAN BARBIE AS WELL, BECAUSE AS A CAUCASION I AM QUITE OFFENDED.

WELL THEN I GUESS WE SHOULD BAN BARBIE AS WELL, BECAUSE AS A CAUCASION I AM QUITE OFFENDED.

 

no youre not... sensible posts please.

Someone else who clearly doesn't actually READ what people say, otherwise you wouldn't actually be having a go at me and Rob for pointing out simple facts.... I wasn't trying to make out people were thick or anything, but wading through high-brow scholarly papers is NOT exactly 99.9 per cent of people on BJ's idea of much fun now is it...? I find that stuff hard going and tedious at times, and I'm studying a MASTERS level degree, so anyone unfamiliar with this sort of reading is going to find it, to say the least, intimidating and rather inpenetrable... Hence, making the whole debate a bit more approachable by posting a Wikipedia link in the hope that it would be a good way of introducing the concepts....

 

Got it now...?

 

And, I'm with Rob as well with regards to your other points, you've asked, what, ONE black person how they feel about being represented by the Gollywogg...?? I went to Uni with SCORES of ethnic minority, African and Afro-Caribbean students, I work with ethnic minority students, and I can pretty much assure you that NONE of them would be happy about what the Gollywogg represents, especially the Africans and Afro-Caribbeans, who would find it absolutely offensive... You sit in your relatively safe suburban English home where none of this affects or touches you, and it never really has.. For millions of Africans, the legacy of European Colonialism is still a very, very touchy and very real subject, the Western world continues to exploit the people of Africa, propping up vile, corrupt regimes, Corporatism has now replaced Colonialism. None of us have any right to say to an African that they should just take it when we denigrate them and disrespect them in this way. Like I say, noone would market an "Auschwitz Alvie" or a "Roger Rabbi" doll would they....? No, they would be labelled as "Anti-Semitic" or "Neo-Nazi", and pulled off the shelves quicker than you could say "Oi Vey!", and no one would be on Forums or chat rooms attempting to defend the manufacturers....

 

Managed that without any F-words...... :P

 

I am perfectly capable of reading your posts and, as I already have a masters degree, am perfectly capable of understanding them also.

 

I used one friend as an example .....I have met more than 1 black person in my life too :rolleyes:

 

I am not denying or ignoring the origins of gollywogs ..... I just feel stongly that often too much emphasis is put on the past.... which doesn't allow for progress....

 

Should we ban Volkswagens?

Should I be dubious of the blonde haired blue eyed german mother of a child in our school?

Should my family flinch at my English accent when I visit my father's home in Ireland?

Should I have flinched at the Northern Irish accent of the man I stood alone on the end of the Giant's Causeway with?

 

If we cling to the hate of the past, dont we just make it worse?

 

We can't put right the wrongs of the past, but we can make a better present.

 

 

 

no youre not... sensible posts please.

 

Spot on mate, you cannot possibly compare Barbie to the absolute affront to black people that is the "gollywogg", and it is stupid to do so...

I

 

Should we ban Volkswagens?

Should I be dubious of the blonde haired blue eyed german mother of a child in our school?

Should my family flinch at my English accent when I visit my father's home in Ireland?

Should I have flinched at the Northern Irish accent of the man I stood alone on the end of the Giant's Causeway with?

 

Now you're just being plain stupid.... <_<

 

A Volkswagen is a CAR, it wasn't built to represent or ridicule a particular race of people... In fact, the idea of the Volkswagen (literally translated meaning "People's Car"), being a cheap, affordable, fuel-economical vehicle, was actually one of the very few decent ideas Hitler ever had....

 

If anything, the Aryans were as much victims of Hitler's insanity as anyone else was in Germany, he basically kidnapped thousands of young, blonde, blue-eyed Germans, Scandinavians, Poles, etc, tore them form their families, and forced them into breeding programmes.. AGAIN, you're showing a scant knowlege of history....

 

Your other two "points" are just totally unworthy of me even mentioning....

I am not denying or ignoring the origins of gollywogs ..... I just feel stongly that often too much emphasis is put on the past.... which doesn't allow for progress....

 

I dont see where the "progress" lies in having a doll which is a cruel, offensive caricature of an entire race... And, I am sorry, but you cannot possibly just "dehistoricize" or "revise" something like this.. Should the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Russians just "get over" the Holocaust then..? Should we turn Auschwitz or Belsen into theme parks or shopping centres and rob these sites of their true significance so future generations can just forget the lessons of history..? Should we believe the bullsh!t of people like David Irvine who try to convince us that the Holocaust was make-believe...? Is that the sort of "Progress" you want then...?

 

The Gollywogg was a tool of oppression, like it or not, that cannot just be swept under the carpet, forgotten and "revised" just to make a bunch of white people feel better about what their ancestors did to over 25 million black slaves....

The Gollywogg was a tool of oppression, like it or not, that cannot just be swept under the carpet, forgotten and "revised" just to make a bunch of white people feel better about what their ancestors did to over 25 million black slaves....

 

but surely isn't banning gollywogs doing just that "sweeping it under the carpet"?

 

 

Am I supposed to feel guilty about slavery? Whilst I don't deny it was a abhorent - I personally didn't participate or condone it - so I don't need to feel better about it?

 

I refuse to be held responsible for the past - and don't feel the need to wallow in it.

 

oh and if the Volkswagen is just a car - a gollywog is just a doll ;)

oh and if the Volkswagen is just a car - a gollywog is just a doll ;)

 

Does a bloody Volkswagen look like a German person though, or actually resemble or caricature in any way a living person....????

 

That would be NO!!!

 

A Gollywogg however is a racist representation of a black person, created by a white person.. Quite different to a VW Beetle dont you think..? Well, I do at any rate... You cant compare the two things....

I refuse to be held responsible for the past -

 

Fine, so don't bring up the past by buying the next generations any fukkin' racist dolls that came out of the past then... <_<

 

 

Like DUUUUUUHHHH....

 

Christ, and you're supposed to be a parent?????

 

You gonna buy your kid a KKK 'fancy dress' costume for Halloween then I take it...? <_< Or perhaps dress them up in a "cute" little SS Stormtrooper outfit for their next birthday party....? Cos it's exactly the same fukkin' thing...

 

But hey, that's fine, cos it's 'all in the past' innit..? It's not as if you went around rounding up Jews, herding them onto Cattle Trucks and gassing them to death is it...? So, perfectly okay to dress up Little Johnny or Little Jenny as Obergruppenfuhrer Von Klinkerhoffen or Ilsa, the She Wolf of the SS for little Alvie's Bar Mitzvah fancy dress party then yeah....? Just a bit of fun for the kids innit...

 

If a Gollywogg is 'just' a doll, then an SS Stormtrooper uniform is 'just' a set of clothes then, yeah...?

Fine, so don't bring up the past by buying the next generations any fukkin' racist dolls that came out of the past then... <_<

Like DUUUUUUHHHH....

 

Christ, and you're supposed to be a parent?????

 

You gonna buy your kid a KKK 'fancy dress' costume for Halloween then I take it...? <_< Or perhaps dress them up in a "cute" little SS Stormtrooper outfit for their next birthday party....? Cos it's exactly the same fukkin' thing...

 

But hey, that's fine, cos it's 'all in the past' innit..? It's not as if you went around rounding up Jews, herding them onto Cattle Trucks and gassing them to death is it...? So, perfectly okay to dress up Little Johnny or Little Jenny as Obergruppenfuhrer Von Klinkerhoffen or Ilsa, the She Wolf of the SS for little Alvie's Bar Mitzvah fancy dress party then yeah....? Just a bit of fun for the kids innit...

 

If a Gollywogg is 'just' a doll, then an SS Stormtrooper uniform is 'just' a set of clothes then, yeah...?

 

I haven't bought anything ..... all I did was allow my child to play with an old toy of mine.

I didn't explain to him the persecution of blacks as he fell asleep with a bed full of cuddly toys ... didn't think it made a good bedtime story. but he seems to have turned out a balanced individual despite having me as a "parent"

 

and no I have never rounded up and gassed anyone one :rolleyes:

 

and as my son is 6'2" i doubt i will be dressing him up as anything ....... but why you think I would I have no idea.

 

Slavery was bad - WWII was bad - the Black death was bad - Hiroshima was bad

 

but as neither you or I can go back and do anything about it ....... I don't know what more there is to say?

 

 

I haven't bought anything ..... all I did was allow my child to play with an old toy of mine.

I didn't explain to him the persecution of blacks as he fell asleep with a bed full of cuddly toys ... didn't think it made a good bedtime story. but he seems to have turned out a balanced individual despite having me as a "parent"

 

and no I have never rounded up and gassed anyone one :rolleyes:

 

and as my son is 6'2" i doubt i will be dressing him up as anything ....... but why you think I would I have no idea.

 

Slavery was bad - WWII was bad - the Black death was bad - Hiroshima was bad

 

but as neither you or I can go back and do anything about it ....... I don't know what more there is to say?

 

My point is, there are some things that you would presumably find totally beyond the pale, even though you yourself had no part in it... If you had a small kid who wanted an SS Stormtrooper uniform for his birthday party, or Halloween or summat (however unlikely that may be, I'm just saying for the sake of argument..), presumably you would NOT give into his demands, because of what the SS uniform represents. Well, surely you shouldn't let your kids have a "gollywogg" doll either because it represents something equally as bad and evil...

 

 

 

surely if we allow gollywogs we arnt moving foreward but are living in the past ... if they hadnt been around in the past would they be allowed now as a 'new toy'?... i see no need for these offensive articles.

I don't understand a couple of things - I understand that neither ICR, her son or friends were offended by the Gollywog doll and carried no racist intentions upon it. They never planned to use it for any racist intent or any such matter, so why should it bother you if they have/had a Golly wog?!

That is totally different to walking through African countries as someone (I don't remember who) said that you would not get out of alive. Anyone can see that that is provocative - it is like walking through Berlin doing John Cleese's famous Hitler walk - whilst in the safety of our own homes we can use our intelligence (because yes, most of us who are taking the time to debate this do have a little bit) to see the funny side/enjoyment in it. But we are not stupid enough to take it out of that context.

The danger comes when ill-educated people have access to these items. They are not racist in intent, but in the wrong hands they can provoke many emotive reactions. Like ICR said, it is all about intent and to be quite honest, the racist, ignorant people in this world do not need a little knitted toy to convey their hate. Nor do they need a nursery rhyme - they are quite capable of doing it themselves.

And don't forget the majority of nursery rhymes and fairy tales are brutal and wicked. Think of Cinderella or the Beauty and the Beast and Hansel and Gretal. But they are not all about race and people forget how women are belittled in these stories (the princess who always needs rescuing because they can't do anything or the wicked stepmother) - they are more than happy to carry on showing these images time and time again on Disney films, why should this be any different? You can't take one stance with some inequality and a different stance on other inequality.

surely if we allow gollywogs we arnt moving foreward but are living in the past ... if they hadnt been around in the past would they be allowed now as a 'new toy'?... i see no need for these offensive articles.

 

The danger lies in people forgetting the past. If people forget about Nazi Germany is far too easy for it to happen all over again.

The danger lies in people forgetting the past. If people forget about Nazi Germany is far too easy for it to happen all over again.

 

erm, so you think we should have gollywogs so we dont forget the past?...

 

i dont agree about 'intent' either, emily on bb called charley a n***** with no racist intent...but it still WAS racist. (or was deemed racist). lets all have these offensive charactures then because we dont mean to be offensive.... <_< , trouble is.... they ARE.

erm, so you think we should have gollywogs so we dont forget the past?...

 

i dont agree about 'intent' either, emily on bb called charley a n***** with no racist intent...but it still WAS racist. (or was deemed racist). lets all have these offensive charactures then because we dont mean to be offensive.... <_< , trouble is.... they ARE.

 

Exactly mate, I certainly didn't mean to cause upset or offence to the little black kid in my Primary school class when I was six... But it bloody happened anyway, the poor kid cried his little eyes out when I shouted "gollywogg, gollywogg" at him.. And THAT is the whole problem and danger when you allow sh!t like this to happen, it can have the same destructive, negative effect on someone's feelings no matter if it is actually meant or not. It sure as hell aint fun when you're on the receiving end.. And you are quite correct again in another post, Gollywoggs are a thing of the past which we should be moving on from, same as "whites only" drinking fountains and park benches...

 

But if neither party are offended by the incident - such as the whole BB thing then it is ludicrous for a third party to get involved and judge the situation differently to those involved!

I'm not saying that we should stay in the past, but if we forget the past then it is far too likely to happen again which is i believe the basis for teaching history?! in particular things like the apartheid and the holocaust!