OK, so look back a little further in the same region. The state of Israel was created in 1948 folowing various acts of terrorism by Zionist extremists. A number of the perpetrators (e.g. Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon) went on to become Prime Minister of their country. Should we have refused to have anything to do with them? Or is this another case where you think terrorism was justified?

 

Hear Hear.. Excellent point actually... The Zionists not only brutally massacred hundreds of Palestinian villagers and stole their land, but also killed British soldiers as well who were there to protect the Palestinian Arabs. Hmmm, pretty much screams "terrorism" to me, they had no right to that land beyond what some Jewish fairy tale - ie, the Old Testament - "told" them about God "promising" them the land..

 

Doubtless Craig would defend this though, being the apologist for the Israeli State that he is... -_-

 

Again a poor comparison

 

Israel came about after a WW2 that had resulted in the deaths of millions of jews in Europe, the events in SA while unpleasant are much smaller on the scale than the attempted extermination of the jewish race and Final Solution, a safe haven for Jews was a necessity with so many displaced and murdered in WW2

 

So, to hell with the people already living there then, yeah...? A safe haven for the Jews at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs...? <_<

 

Might actually interest you to know that originally the Zionist movement actually set their sites on the Highlands area of Uganda for their homeland... Then it all became about "religious" dogma, rather than about actual necessity...

 

Hear Hear.. Excellent point actually... The Zionists not only brutally massacred hundreds of Palestinian villagers and stole their land, but also killed British soldiers as well who were there to protect the Palestinian Arabs. Hmmm, pretty much screams "terrorism" to me, they had no right to that land beyond what some Jewish fairy tale - ie, the Old Testament - "told" them about God "promising" them the land..

 

Doubtless Craig would defend this though, being the apologist for the Israeli State that he is... -_-

 

This country has stolen more land and massacred more natives right across the world than probably any other country in the globe, we have wreaked havoc right across Africa, Asia and god knows what else but the past is the past, what we did it in Africa and the Indian sub continent is much worse than Israel reclaiming their land in the middle east.

 

 

And look at what became of Steve Biko. Killed while being "questioned" by the police.

 

Spot on..

 

"Fell down some stairs" did he Craig...? And still you insist that the Blacks had no right to resist this vile regime by any means necessary....

 

Biko and Mandela are working class heroes as far as I'm concerned... Pity they didn't kill more Afrikaaner scum.... It aint murder any more than the French resistance blowing up a train full of fukkin' Nazis and their whores and families is murder, or indeed the Native American tribes scalping a bunch of cowboys....

Spot on..

 

"Fell down some stairs" did he Craig...? And still you insist that the Blacks had no right to resist this vile regime by any means necessary....

 

Biko and Mandela are working class heroes as far as I'm concerned... Pity they didn't kill more Afrikaaner scum.... It aint murder any more than the French resistance blowing up a train full of fukkin' Nazis and their whores and families is murder, or indeed the Native American tribes scalping a bunch of cowboys....

 

I was the one that bought Biko into this

 

I have far more admiration for Biko than I do Mandela, Biko was 100% committed to PEACEFUL means of solving the apartheid situation

 

Not once did he consider violence, not once did he let off bombs and sabotage commuter trains unlike Mandela, Biko was a man of peace Mandela has blood on his hands

Edited August 31, 200717 yr by Vic Vega

International pressure and sanctions that hit the business interests of the white population are the answer no matter how many years it takes, there is no overnight solution and bombs are not the solution

 

What would you have suggested if you were British PM ? military action by us and America to take the country or something ?

 

Vorster, Botha then De Klerk gradually bought about reforms it was a slow process but it happened and it happened because of international pressure not because of any bombs the ANC military wing let off, any bombs damaged their cause

 

It's a pity your heroine didn't agree with you. She stubbornly resisted all attempts by Commonwealth countries to introduce sanctions. When limited sanctions were finally agreed, she actually boasted about how trivial they were. That statement did achieve one thing. I was going to go house-hunting that weekend but went on the anti-apartheid march instead.

Might actually interest you to know that originally the Zionist movement actually set their sites on the Highlands area of Uganda for their homeland... Then it all became about "religious" dogma, rather than about actual necessity...

Well actually that point is a tad inaccurate - the British Colonial Secretary at the time, Joseph Chamberlain, offered Uganda to Herzl, and the offer was presented to the Zionist Congress meeting in Basel. At the time they had their sights set on Palestine and the offer was described as an 'ante-chamber' to receiving Palestine, but most thought it would harm their cause, and although the motion was passed, after a delegation inspected the land offered and judged it unsuitable for habitation for various reasons (hostile local tribes - sound familiar? :lol:) they rejected the offer...

It's a pity your heroine didn't agree with you. She stubbornly resisted all attempts by Commonwealth countries to introduce sanctions. When limited sanctions were finally agreed, she actually boasted about how trivial they were. That statement did achieve one thing. I was going to go house-hunting that weekend but went on the anti-apartheid march instead.

 

Nelson Mandela thanked Maggie and Reagan for their efforts at securing his release, Maggie and Reagan pressurised Botha and De Klerk away from the scenes via telephone and quiet diplomacy, Mandela acknowledged their role in the end of apartheid and his release

 

She had a point about trade sanctions, bringing a country to its knees with sanctions would have ultimately hurt blacks far more than it would have hurt whites as less and less money would have gone to black areas for things like healthcare and education and so on and what little money there was coming into the country would have been invested in the whites long before the blacks, THAT was Maggie's point and I can see where she was coming from

 

Nelson Mandela thanked Maggie and Reagan for their efforts at securing his release, Maggie and Reagan pressurised Botha and De Klerk away from the scenes via telephone and quiet diplomacy, Mandela acknowledged their role in the end of apartheid and his release

 

She had a point about trade sanctions, bringing a country to its knees with sanctions would have ultimately hurt blacks far more than it would have hurt whites as less and less money would have gone to black areas for things like healthcare and education and so on and what little money there was coming into the country would have been invested in the whites long before the blacks, THAT was Maggie's point and I can see where she was coming from

 

Her justification was laughable mate... :lol: :lol: Exactly how much education and healthcare resources was the Apartheid Govt actually giving to the Blacks in the Townships anyway pre-sanctions...? I seriously doubt they noticed any difference at all... Sorry, Maggie was an apologist for Apartheid. Absolutely unforgiveable in my book....

 

I rather think that Mandela was being ironic when he "thanked" Maggie and Reagan and was being Statesmanlike and chose to act with a bit more dignity instead of expressing what he really thought of those two b/astards...

I was the one that bought Biko into this

 

I have far more admiration for Biko than I do Mandela, Biko was 100% committed to PEACEFUL means of solving the apartheid situation

 

Not once did he consider violence, not once did he let off bombs and sabotage commuter trains unlike Mandela, Biko was a man of peace Mandela has blood on his hands

 

Like I said mate, I DONT CARE if Mandela felt it necessary to set off bombs and commit acts of sabotage.. He felt he had to, and I agree with him totally... I dont consider the ANC tactics any different to what the French Resistance did or what the Indian rebels did in the 19th century... At the end of the day, South Africa was NOT the property of a bunch of scummy Dutch Imperialists to lord over.... <_<

 

Biko pursued more peaceful means, which I also respect, but that was his approach. It's not a case of one guy was right and the other guy was wrong.. BOTH were in the right, because at the end of the day, it was THEIR country to fight for, as AFRICANS, and as the majority; not that of the white, minority EUROPEAN imperialists....

biko tried peaceful means and where did it get him?.... a wooden overcoat. <_<

 

as i recall thatcher was pro botha, she was in support of aparthied but had to back down as we the general population was against it.

biko tried peaceful means and where did it get him?.... a wooden overcoat. <_<

 

as i recall thatcher was pro botha, she was in support of aparthied but had to back down as we the general population was against it.

 

Wrong Rob

 

She summoned Botha to Downing St in 1984 to tell him in no uncertain terms that apartheid was unacceptable, she also told him to release Mandela and she also had 4 South Africans arrested that were trying to violate our arms embargo with South Africa

Wrong Rob

 

She summoned Botha to Downing St in 1984 to tell him in no uncertain terms that apartheid was unacceptable, she also told him to release Mandela and she also had 4 South Africans arrested that were trying to violate our arms embargo with South Africa

 

And this is what happened to the 4 South Africans:

 

The Coventry Four were arrested in March 1984, within a month, the Coventry Four had been freed from jail and allowed to travel to South Africa – on condition that they returned to England for their trial later that year. In August 1984, foreign minister, Pik Botha, decided not to allow the Coventry Four to return to stand trial, thereby forfeiting £200,000 bail money put up by the South African embassy in London.

 

The Coventry Four affair re-surfaced on December 7, 1988 when The Guardian published a letter – critical of Mrs Thatcher – from British diplomat Patrick Haseldine. The letter, which The Guardian headed The double standards on terrorism, appeared in print 14 days before the December 21, 1988 Lockerbie bombing stated that she had a key role in gaining these four South Africans their release against the advice of members of her cabinet and military advisers.

Her justification was laughable mate... :lol: :lol: Exactly how much education and healthcare resources was the Apartheid Govt actually giving to the Blacks in the Townships anyway pre-sanctions...? I seriously doubt they noticed any difference at all... Sorry, Maggie was an apologist for Apartheid. Absolutely unforgiveable in my book....

 

I totally agree.

 

I rather think that Mandela was being ironic when he "thanked" Maggie and Reagan and was being Statesmanlike and chose to act with a bit more dignity instead of expressing what he really thought of those two b/astards...

 

Mandela being ironic, there is a surprise. This is the legend who said upon meeting the Spice Girls "This is the greatest day of my life!" :lol:

 

 

Wrong Rob

 

She summoned Botha to Downing St in 1984 to tell him in no uncertain terms that apartheid was unacceptable, she also told him to release Mandela and she also had 4 South Africans arrested that were trying to violate our arms embargo with South Africa

 

:lol: :lol:

 

It's called "window dressing" mate. She did that to make herself look good, she told Botha to release Mandela knowing damn fine he wouldn't, and Thisispop has explained to us all the "punishment" shown to the four South African arms dealers... Total smokescreen in order to make it look to the UN and to the world in general like she was actually doing something, when in fact it amounted to absolutely bugger all and empty gestures... <_< Behind the scenes, she and her lousy Government was one of the best friends Apartheid had....

:lol: :lol:

 

It's called "window dressing" mate. She did that to make herself look good, she told Botha to release Mandela knowing damn fine he wouldn't, and Thisispop has explained to us all the "punishment" shown to the four South African arms dealers... Total smokescreen in order to make it look to the UN and to the world in general like she was actually doing something, when in fact it amounted to absolutely bugger all and empty gestures... <_< Behind the scenes, she and her lousy Government was one of the best friends Apartheid had....

 

Apartheid occured under several Labour administrations too mate, it did not just develop under Maggie, there have been several Labour PM's since 1958 and what did they do about apartheid ? nothing, to lay the blame at Maggie's door when other administrations were not doing anything about apartheid is absurd, Sharpeville and Soweto and so on did not occur under Maggie, Soweto and the murder of Biko occured under Callaghan and Sharpeville under Wilson

 

Maggie may not have done enough about apartheid but previous administrations did no more or even less

Edited August 31, 200717 yr by Vic Vega

tbh i feel out of my depth here as my knowlege/memory of this situation isnt as clear as craigs, tip's or scotts. though thatcher 'window dressing' to botha reminds me very much of 'yes minister'...lol.

Apartheid occured under several Labour administrations too mate, it did not just develop under Maggie, there have been several Labour PM's since 1958 and what did they do about apartheid ? nothing, to lay the blame at Maggie's door when other administrations were not doing anything about apartheid is absurd, Sharpeville and Soweto and so on did not occur under Maggie, Soweto and the murder of Biko occured under Callaghan and Sharpeville under Wilson

 

Maggie may not have done enough about apartheid but previous administrations did no more or even less

 

its not so much about laying the blame at maggies door, she was in power for 11 dreadful years, longer then any other administration under apartied. the difference? all the other pm's were vocal in their genuine disgust at aparthied.

I'm South African and think it's absurd that anyone would label Nelson Mandela a terrorist. He was completely justified in his actions. The black majority would still have been at the hands of the white minority if Mandela and all others involved had not taken a stand against them. I'd say that the black majority were the ones being terrorised.