October 9, 200717 yr now you are acting stupid.... Why is he...? If you ask me, KG is totally on the money, he's just injecting his point with a bit of humour, but it's no less valid a point.... Have you ever actually read your Orwell, your Phillip K Dick, your Aldous Huxley, your Anthony Burgess...????? These guys were not merely authors, they were bloody predicting all this sh!t..... And, they've pretty much nailed it..... They certainly were not saying "hey, all this stuff is such a neat idea" either... Their works were WARNINGS of what was to come, and that we were all in danger of sacrificing our humanity, our freedom and our spirit...... Take the example of Anthony Burgess - "A Clockwork Orange" is basically saying, yes, the individual is capable of some pretty terrible things, but that pales into insignificance compared to what the State is capable of doing to individuals..... Oh, and by the way, Burgess's wife was gang raped and murdered by four off-duty US servicemen during a blackout in WW2, so just to put things into perspective here; so "A Clockwork Orange" is not merely some theoretical point, he actually infused some very real experiences into the work and was clearly exorcising some personal demons within the text..... Which is probably why "A Clockwork Orange" is one of the greatest works of literature from the 20th Century.... So, if Burgess can write this book warning us about the power of the state in how it controls individuals and can see the worth in individual liberty and freedom, whatever that individual chooses to do, despite a loved one being the victim of a despicable act of individual crime, then what the hell is your problem.....?
October 9, 200717 yr Why is he...? If you ask me, KG is totally on the money, he's just injecting his point with a bit of humour, but it's no less valid a point.... Have you ever actually read your Orwell, your Phillip K Dick, your Aldous Huxley, your Anthony Burgess...????? These guys were not merely authors, they were bloody predicting all this sh!t..... And, they've pretty much nailed it..... They certainly were not saying "hey, all this stuff is such a neat idea" either... Their works were WARNINGS of what was to come, and that we were all in danger of sacrificing our humanity, our freedom and our spirit...... Take the example of Anthony Burgess - "A Clockwork Orange" is basically saying, yes, the individual is capable of some pretty terrible things, but that pales into insignificance compared to what the State is capable of doing to individuals..... Oh, and by the way, Burgess's wife was gang raped and murdered by four off-duty US servicemen during a blackout in WW2, so just to put things into perspective here; so "A Clockwork Orange" is not merely some theoretical point, he actually infused some very real experiences into the work and was clearly exorcising some personal demons within the text..... Which is probably why "A Clockwork Orange" is one of the greatest works of literature from the 20th Century.... So, if Burgess can write this book warning us about the power of the state in how it controls individuals and can see the worth in individual liberty and freedom, whatever that individual chooses to do, despite a loved one being the victim of a despicable act of individual crime, then what the hell is your problem.....? but you talk as if this orwellian vision of britain would become fact if the government had the powers.... it isnt, its only a possibility, IF the populace allowed it. we live in a world off accountability, i just dont think for one moment that handing the government these sort of powers will result in an unmoveable police state! :lol:.... sorry but things could never become as bleak as you predict as the british people wouldnt let it.
October 9, 200717 yr we live in a world off accountability, Well, that's just not true and you know it mate... Tell me of ONE instance where a miscarriage of justice has occurred and the coppers responsible for it have been held accountable... Were any coppers held responsible for fitting up the Guildford Four, Birmingham Six, The Maguires, Colin Stagg....?? Were any coppers held accountable for deliberately fukkin up the Stephen Lawrence investigation, and more than likely taking bungs....? Were any coppers held responsible or accountable for the 1100 or so "mysterious deaths" that have taken place in police custody in the past 20 or 30 years. Or indeed the cold blooded murder or Jean Charles De Menezes...?? Like hell they were..... <_< And, was Thatcher or her Govt held accountable for the Belgrano, which you yourself called a War Crime....? And dont get me started on Iraq...... Sorry mate, but that statement is just false, which is WHY I dont trust the Police or the State as institutions.....
October 9, 200717 yr Well, that's just not true and you know it mate... Tell me of ONE instance where a miscarriage of justice has occurred and the coppers responsible for it have been held accountable... Were any coppers held responsible for fitting up the Guildford Four, Birmingham Six, The Maguires, Colin Stagg....?? Were any coppers held accountable for deliberately fukkin up the Stephen Lawrence investigation, and more than likely taking bungs....? Were any coppers held responsible or accountable for the 1100 or so "mysterious deaths" that have taken place in police custody in the past 20 or 30 years. Or indeed the cold blooded murder or Jean Charles De Menezes...?? Like hell they were..... <_< And, was Thatcher or her Govt held accountable for the Belgrano, which you yourself called a War Crime....? And dont get me started on Iraq...... Sorry mate, but that statement is just false, which is WHY I dont trust the Police or the State as institutions..... youve just PROVED my argument though :) although no one has been 'done' for these miscarriages of justice, its laudable that they have been discovered and brought out in the open! maybe if they used dna then the cases would never have got to court! :lol: a police state would have covered it all up....
October 9, 200717 yr although no one has been 'done' for these miscarriages of justice, its laudable that they have been discovered and brought out in the open! Not good enough when the CPS covers up for bent coppers though and refuses to prosecute when there are clear cases of Perverting the course of Justice, lying under oath, manufacturing evidence, torturing and beating suspects, etc to be answered.... <_< And who's to say that a copper wouldn't plant a suspect's DNA at a crime scene...?
October 9, 200717 yr Not good enough when the CPS covers up for bent coppers though.... <_< i agree on that, but it shows that our justice system does work, eventually.
October 9, 200717 yr i agree on that, but it shows that our justice system does work, eventually. But it doesn't if no one is held accountable for the miscarriages though, THAT is my point.... People who have been falsely denied their liberty for years will never truly see justice done if the people who committed the crimes upon them are not held up to be accountable..... And neither will the families of the victims of the original offence because the trail has now gone cold and the real perpetrators got away with it because some stupid fukkin' bent pig fitted up the WRONG PERSON...... <_< <_<
October 9, 200717 yr But it doesn't if no one is held accountable for the miscarriages though, THAT is my point.... People who have been falsely denied their liberty for years will never truly see justice done if the people who committed the crimes upon them are not held up to be accountable..... but this is the 21st centuary and miscarriages of justice with all the latest technology will be rarer, nothings perfect, we have to move on with the times. i dont believe that the miscarriages from the past would probably happen now... i agree though that someone should be accountable. we need to move foreward and people need to do their jobs properly.
October 10, 200717 yr but this is the 21st centuary and miscarriages of justice with all the latest technology will be rarer, nothings perfect, we have to move on with the times. i dont believe that the miscarriages from the past would probably happen now... i agree though that someone should be accountable. we need to move foreward and people need to do their jobs properly. When people are involved corruption and mistakes are just too common. There is never a 100% guarentee that evidence hasn't benn manipulated or tampered with by the authorities. I formed my views on these kind of topics partly due to the influence of reading 1984 by George Orwell I suggest you read that one. Do not have complete faith in modern science its as easily manipulated as other evidence. And remember Germany was a democracy in the 1930's when the Nazi party won an election with 30% odd of the vote, this could happen anywhere, the UK is not uniquely protected. You said the people would not let these things happen well 2 million marched against the Iraq invasion and it still went ahead, isn't that evidence of the lack of democracy or accontability in this nation
October 10, 200717 yr When people are involved corruption and mistakes are just too common. There is never a 100% guarentee that evidence hasn't benn manipulated or tampered with by the authorities. I formed my views on these kind of topics partly due to the influence of reading 1984 by George Orwell I suggest you read that one. Do not have complete faith in modern science its as easily manipulated as other evidence. And remember Germany was a democracy in the 1930's when the Nazi party won an election with 30% odd of the vote, this could happen anywhere, the UK is not uniquely protected. You said the people would not let these things happen well 2 million marched against the Iraq invasion and it still went ahead, isn't that evidence of the lack of democracy or accontability in this nation do you remember the poll tax riots?... the government was FORCED to back down on that. 30% vote for a police state would mean 70% against. this is the uk in the 21st centuary.... orwell wrote fiction, it wasnt a prediction, it doesnt have to be like that.
October 10, 200717 yr do you remember the poll tax riots?... the government was FORCED to back down on that. 30% vote for a police state would mean 70% against. this is the uk in the 21st centuary.... orwell wrote fiction, it wasnt a prediction, it doesnt have to be like that. Yes I remember that whole era, I also remember the poll tax was introduced a year earlier in Scotland and we had big protests and demonstrations and nothing was done, so don't tell me protests work, they don't unless a government decides to allow them to work. The conservative government of that era suddenly realised their core voters would change alleigence and vote labour thats the only reason they caved in.
October 10, 200717 yr do you remember the poll tax riots?... the government was FORCED to back down on that. 30% vote for a police state would mean 70% against. this is the uk in the 21st centuary.... orwell wrote fiction, it wasnt a prediction, it doesnt have to be like that. A Police State doesn't necessarily have to mean the whole Stasi/KGB/Jackboots kicking down doors in the middle of the night and frogmarching people off into big black vans, no, the form that I am talking about is far more subtle, but no less insidious... In this country we have a culture which basically says the Police can do no wrong, and even when they DO they are not really held accountable as you or I would if we fukked royally up in our professions... As I said, no one has been held accountable for the miscarriages of justice, or the mysterious deaths in police custody that have occurred over the years or the wrongful deaths of Jean Charles De Menezes or that bloke in London who was shot carrying a table leg that some brainless arse of a policeman mistook for a sodding shotgun (yeah, right.... <_< ). And the fact that many Police Chiefs such as Ian Blair seem to be able to "play politics" and use their authority to try to influence democratically elected officials and how the vote in certain key pieces of legislation - ie, when the Govt was trying to bring in 90 day detention for terrors suspects and other "serious" criminals (whatever that means...), PC Plod Blair took it upon himself to send coppers around to "persuade" Labour rebels to vote the "right" way... What a gross abuse of authority!!!! Who the fukk does this guy think he is ffs...???? He's a a ruddy PUBLIC SERVANT WITH NO DEMOCRATIC MANDATE!!!!!! If this maggot wants to play politics and try to influence the democratic law-making processes of this country, he should damn well STAND FOR PUBLIC OFFICE AND GET PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR HIM..... This sort of thing Mugabe would be proud of.... And the media, well, they just fawn all over the Police for the most part.. The Police can do absolutely no wrong... The mainstream gutter press wrote some frankly disgusting, shameful articles about the parents of Stephen Lawrence... Oh, yeah, I mean, how DARE the Lawrences actually have the audacity to criticise the police and how they grossly mishandled their son's brutal murder.... <_< And I vividly remember one particular Scum editorial concerning the Hillsborough disaster and not uttering one WORD of criticism of how the police handled that one..... And even when the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six were PROVEN innocent, still no word of criticism about the police; no, instead we get more outrageous reportage basically saying "well, they probably did do it, it's just the forensic evidence was flawed".... I mean STONE THE FUKKIN' CROWS!!!!!!! And I suppose they just "fell down some stairs" and got all those bruises and black eyes that we saw in those photos did they....???? <_< <_< <_< And why is it that the Press crows on about "victims rights" one minute, and then when someone is a victim of the police and their actions, and they try to seek some sort of compensation or demand someone be held accountable for it, all of a sudden they're not victims, they're "troublemakers"...... No, we DO live in a police state my friend, it's just that it aint of the Jackboot and summary executions variety, it's of a far more subtle cultural and police top brass using their influence variety.....
October 10, 200717 yr It's true that the police act with impunity, and I suppose your arguement is logical, we live in a subtle police state, where gradually citizens rights are being slowly eroded over time, after all survellance in the UK is amongst the most intrusive in the world, yet the general population have accepted it without too much protest...... ...and the government tries to further erode rights.
October 10, 200717 yr It's true that the police act with impunity, and I suppose your arguement is logical, we live in a subtle police state, where gradually citizens rights are being slowly eroded over time, after all survellance in the UK is amongst the most intrusive in the world, yet the general population have accepted it without too much protest...... Yeah, they do, which is what disturbs me the most tbh... If this was France, you'd have riots on the streets of Paris if the State or the police tried to pull this sort of bullsh!t..... But then, I suppose the French are actually more willing to stand up for their rights and actually believe in the principles upon which their nation was founded - Liberty, Freedom, Equality.... -_-
October 10, 200717 yr Yeah, they do, which is what disturbs me the most tbh... If this was France, you'd have riots on the streets of Paris if the State or the police tried to pull this sort of bullsh!t..... But then, I suppose the French are actually more willing to stand up for their rights and actually believe in the principles upon which their nation was founded - Liberty, Freedom, Equality.... -_- yeah lets get rid of the police... freedom for terrorists, criminals and scumbags to run riot, great country that would be..... <_< subtle police state my arse... the police are now more impotent then they have ever been dispite now technology... the french?... pmsl.... not got a very good track record have they... they would have been speaking german twice over if it wasnt for us, dont hold them up as some freedom fighter populace... they are nowt but moaners.
October 10, 200717 yr the french?... pmsl.... not got a very good track record have they... they would have been speaking german twice over if it wasnt for us, dont hold them up as some freedom fighter populace... they are nowt but moaners. Hmmm, well, you do seem to forget about Napoleon dont you....?? :lol: :lol: The French Revolution...?? Oh, and not to mention the French Resistance who certainly made our job on D-Day a little bit easier..... And yeah, they are "moaners", they "moan" about their rights and their freedoms and have taken to the streets to defend those rights, and actually HAVE had an effect on Govt Policy by this very act of "moaning".... If only we Brits were such "moaners" and stopped just rolling on our bellies and taking it.... <_<
October 10, 200717 yr yeah lets get rid of the police... freedom for terrorists, criminals and scumbags to run riot, great country that would be..... <_< And you accuse me of sarcasm... Since when does demanding the police be held more accountable equate to "getting rid of them"....? Your real name is Peter Hitchins innit mate....?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :P I have no problem with individual coppers, but those tend to be the genuine "protect and serve" types who DO solve crimes, who DO do their jobs properly, who DO help communities, who DONT try to play politics, and who DONT generally rise above the rank of Sergeant..... Funny that innit...?? My Uncle was copper for 25 years, and his major gripe was too many of the high-ranking cops play politics, he didn't feel it was the place for the Police force to involve itself in Politics, the police are there to SOLVE CRIME.... He didn't make it past Sergeant.....
October 10, 200717 yr Hmmm, well, you do seem to forget about Napoleon dont you....?? :lol: :lol: The French Revolution...?? ......... and YOU are forgetting about wellington!!! :lol: again, we got the french pesants out of the mire.
October 10, 200717 yr And you accuse me of sarcasm... Since when does demanding the police be held more accountable equate to "getting rid of them"....? Your real name is Peter Hitchins innit mate....?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :P ive already agreed with that, i just dont think we can go blindly on in a world where unfortunately terrorism and crime are major worries in life, without 'upping the ante' to cope. if this means greater surveillance then thats the price we have to pay.
October 10, 200717 yr ......... and YOU are forgetting about wellington!!! :lol: again, we got the french pesants out of the mire. Napoleon's real mistake was trying to invade Russia, that's what did for him more than anything.... Same thing happened to Hitler.... :lol: :lol:
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