The abuse of kids in the Catholic Church exists, but it´s far from being a rule... it happens, scientifically proved, with less frequency with priests then with doctors, for example. Should we blame pediatric medicine for paedophilia too???

 

eh?..... i have NEVER ever heard of a p**** doctor! unlike the catholic church which is riddled with them!

completely avoidable by any responsible person indulging in sexual relations by using contraception.

 

the world is so very black and white to you isn't it.

 

to be fair - pregnancy is only 100% avoidable is you don't have sex.

 

the question is.... does the foetus have any rights?.... if so then the mother does NOT have the right to abort. if your foetus reacted to a door slamming then surely it has life and rights to that life. this would contradict the above quote. :)

 

 

 

You misunderstood my post.

 

I was saying (perhaps badly) that I can see both sides of this argument.

 

I would never condem or judge anyone for their decisions - whether it was to have an abortion or keep a child.

 

 

 

the world is so very black and white to you isn't it.

 

lol... not really, it is many shades of grey, but in this world where 'everyone has a right to an opinion' it gives scope for the most stupid notions to get airtime. i think its important to hold on to the facts, and yes i totally agree that abstainance from sex IS the only sure fire way to avoid pregnancy i think there are too many feckless individuals who have unprotected sex and think abortion is ok 'if i get caught'. thats what i object too, not the unfortunate rape victim nor the contraception gone wrong.

 

its about adult responsibility, as a teacher and parent do you disagree with this?

You misunderstood my post.

 

I was saying (perhaps badly) that I can see both sides of this argument.

 

I would never condem or judge anyone for their decisions - whether it was to have an abortion or keep a child.

 

i was broadly agreeing with you and i was attempting to further the points you raised (perhaps badly ...lol)

its about adult responsibility, as a teacher and parent do you disagree with this?

 

 

If you had ever read any of my posts you would just how much I agree with this :rofl:

 

 

I think too many people in this society avoid taking repsonsibilty for their own actions and those of their children.

 

And sadly from a very early age children are allowed to avoid any consequences of their actions.

 

 

 

But then by the same token - the irresponsible teenagers who does get pregnant - is it more responsible to have the child or to face the fact that an abortion may be the best option?

Edited February 2, 200817 yr by ICR

If you had ever read any of my posts you would just how much I agree with this :rofl:

I think too many people in this society avoid taking repsonsibilty for their own actions and those of their children.

 

And sadly from a very early age children are allowed to avoid any consequences of their actions.

But then by the same token - the irresponsible teenagers who does get pregnant - is it more responsible to have the child or to face the fact that an abortion may be the best option?

 

erm... i HAVE read your posts and am fully aware of your position which is exactly WHY i put that!

 

ill put this down to nuances being lost in cold type...

 

i dont think its actually possible to say with any certainty what IS best, would abortion be best for the baby? it may be brought up in neglect and squalor and become a vile chav crim, or it may be adopted and have a very happy life, the mother may mature, get a decent partner, have a decent upbringing...

 

broadly im against abortion, and whilst abortion may well be the best option for the mother, i dont think itll be the best option in 99.9% of cases for the child.

broadly im against abortion, and whilst abortion may well be the best option for the mother, i dont think itll be the best option in 99.9% of cases for the child.

 

It might be the best thing for society as a whole if some of these stupid chav bints were forced to have abortions instead of inflicting more feral yobs on the country..... <_<

 

i think there are too many feckless individuals who have unprotected sex and think abortion is ok 'if i get caught'. thats what i object too, not the unfortunate rape victim nor the contraception gone wrong.

 

Like I said though, this is down mainly to ignorance and poor education... It's pretty pathetic that in this country we cant even have a proper, no-nonsense sex education programme without the fukkin' "moral majority" and the tabloids jumping down the throats of people.... The really media are such bloody hypocrites, one minute they're going on about morals, the next they're selling advertising to sex chatlines and printing photographs of half naked women in submissive poses..... :wacko: :wacko:

 

Educators and public health bodies want to help underage teenagers get a handle on their sexuality, the media just wants confuse and obfuscate and to sell sex as a commodity.... I know which I'd rather have.....

Like I said though, this is down mainly to ignorance and poor education... It's pretty pathetic that in this country we cant even have a proper, no-nonsense sex education programme without the fukkin' "moral majority" and the tabloids jumping down the throats of people.... The really media are such bloody hypocrites, one minute they're going on about morals, the next they're selling advertising to sex chatlines and printing photographs of half naked women in submissive poses..... :wacko: :wacko:

 

Educators and public health bodies want to help underage teenagers get a handle on their sexuality, the media just wants confuse and obfuscate and to sell sex as a commodity.... I know which I'd rather have.....

 

im not sure i agree with you there..... does ANY teenager not know where babies come from and how to prevent them?...

does ANY teenager not know where babies come from and how to prevent them?...

 

Well, you've kind of proved my point mate... Bad sex education.........

 

Look, we seriously need to cut the cr@p here and stop worrying about offending the ridiculous sensibilities of parents or the "moral majority" out there... Fukk them, it aint them that are the ones ending up pregnant without a bloody clue what to do about it...... <_<

And you seem to make the very, very foolish mistake of deeming anyone not simple enough to blindly follow some religion as beneath you.

My problem lies not only with the vile abuse carried out by many members of your 'church' - it is the systematic cover-up operation that not only the priests involved undertook - but EVERY member of the church who knew about it - right the way to the upper echelons of the Vatican. Some religion, eh?

It´s not "my" church because I am not roman-catholic... I´ve heard of many cases of priests that were excomunniated from the church YEARS before they were condemned by the SECULAR law, and some of them who were excommuniated even being ABSOLVED by the secular law... In fact, sexual relations even with adult persons use to be enough reason for a priest to be excomuniated in the RC church... let alone with children.

 

What has a newborn, breathing, human being got to do with a thumbnail-size foetus? You are arguing on the assumption that a foetus IS a human being, hence able to be 'murdered'. I, however, am not. And you still fail to answer my question re. foetuses aborted naturally down a toilet pan or down some poor woman's leg - how many funerals have you attended for these 'human' beings?

Surely a death of natural causes or accidental can´t be used an excuse to allow people to deliberately murder... you still got the problem in your hands. When is the exact moment a foetus stops being a thumbnail-size foetus and becomes a young baby??? It´s not overnight, it´s a gradual process. So, if the process that makes it becoming "human" is gradual, the penalties should be so then??? This means that if we allow a mother to abort on the 7th month, we can´t condemn a mother who kills a newborn premature baby... it´s a matter of proportionalitty. Then we should also have different laws for varyng degress of mental health... killing a person with an IQ lower then 25 (serious mental deficienty) should have a smaller punishment then killing someone with normal health... it is disgusting but it´s the only way to keep minimal coerence for people who defend abortion.

 

Surely a death of natural causes or accidental can´t be used an excuse to allow people to deliberately murder...

 

But again you fail to answer my question - IF a foetus dies, in whichever way, your argument is that this 'living thing' is already human - so surely, if they are bona fide humans, doesn't EVERY human deserve a proper burial?

 

This means that if we allow a mother to abort on the 7th month, we can´t condemn a mother who kills a newborn premature baby... it´s a matter of proportionalitty.

 

Aborting in the 7th month? eh? When and where? This, to my knowledge, has only ever been done in very, very extreme cases when having the baby would endanger the life of the mother - or if the baby is already dead inside the mother. I think your statement assuming 7th month abortion in normal cases is wildly inaccurate....

But again you fail to answer my question - IF a foetus dies, in whichever way, your argument is that this 'living thing' is already human - so surely, if they are bona fide humans, doesn't EVERY human deserve a proper burial?

If the parents want, they can have one... It´s up to their choice. Stuff like that ain´t important really... a foetus doesn´t have a social life, neither a newborn baby, so you can´t expect a funeral with loads of people mourning... if you met any women who had an undesired abortion you´d know how much pain and suffering it bring for the family for weeks - obviously I´m not talking about people who think pregancy is like having worms or cancer. To average humanity, pregnacy is seen as a good think, even when it comes at the wrong time... I have dozens of female friends who got an undesired pregnacy, at a very young age or sometimes with an undesireable father, most of them had to raise the kid alone... not one of them regrets keeping the baby. I live in a poor country, and conservative society where women who get pregnant before marriage still receive many negative comments everywhere... It´s funny that people who live in rich and "enlighted" countries claim that it´s "too hard" to raise an undesired baby... Obviously that´s just bollocks... No child born in an average UK/USA family experiences hunger with that ease.

 

Aborting in the 7th month? eh? When and where? This, to my knowledge, has only ever been done in very, very extreme cases when having the baby would endanger the life of the mother - or if the baby is already dead inside the mother. I think your statement assuming 7th month abortion in normal cases is wildly inaccurate....

But anyway, when is the exact date an abortion is still "acceptable"??? Is it a gradual process, or we just fix a time in the clock when a piece of flesh becomes a "bona fide" human???

I only came into this thread to write that George Bush is a walking advert for abortion.

 

Anyway, I won't bring up old arguments but I will say that I think abortion should be legal, the choice should be with the mother. I do, however, think that four months should be the maximum. It's a serious decision, but you should know by that time. Six months is an incredibly long time and the foetus will have developed considerably more in those two months.