And why are they that much? Because peopl can afford to pay more, if they couldn't they wouldn't be so high, would they?

 

But why would inflation increase that much? It's been 2-3% for so long now. And IF inflation increases that much then people will be earning a more money and are therefore likely be able to AFFORD to pay £6 a pint!

 

To get from £3.60 to £4.58 is an increase of OVER 25%! Followed by increases of 13%, 12% and 12% again! So at "2% above inflation" as you so put it, how much inflation really expected to be then? Considering it's been stable and well under 5% for so long? Do you honestly think there will be that much of a fluctuation? And considering it's for so long it's hardly a 'fluctuation'.

...considering we're entering the most unsettling period for the economy for the best part of 20 years - and nothing is totally predictable (apart from, yes, everything will go up, up, up in price), I think you can safely say inflation is set for some marked increases.

 

So you think everyone south of the country is richer? I think you may be confusing the south of Britain with London alone... where people do get 'London weighting' on their salary (not that it's woth much). The cities like Bristol, Cardiff, Birmingham.... the majority of people here are as poor as the norttherners, I can assure you... and no, they can't afford to go socialising like they used to.

And why are they that much? Because peopl can afford to pay more, if they couldn't they wouldn't be so high, would they?

 

But why would inflation increase that much? It's been 2-3% for so long now. And IF inflation increases that much then people will be earning a more money and are therefore likely be able to AFFORD to pay £6 a pint!

 

To get from £3.60 to £4.58 is an increase of OVER 25%! Followed by increases of 13%, 12% and 12% again! So at "2% above inflation" as you so put it, how much inflation really expected to be then? Considering it's been stable and well under 5% for so long? Do you honestly think there will be that much of a fluctuation? And considering it's for so long it's hardly a 'fluctuation'.

 

erm... no... it doesnt work like that!

The pub closure figures speak for themselves, however uppity, pious and anti-smoking you care to be - since the smoking ban, pub closures have gone up over 65% - so it's hardly a coincidence. You think pub takings have increased since the smoking ban? They haven't. And whilst people numbers, to the casual occasional drinker, may appear to be just the same - the fact is this - people stay in bars for a far less time now the ban is enforced - hence they spend far less money. As predicted, the very vocal and very tedious anti-smoking brigade - they simply haven't been frequenting the places they were hyperventilating about, when they were breathlessly protesting that they were too "smoky" and they could, ahem "catch cancer from second hand smoke". Strange that, isn't it? Armchair whiners - they rarely leave the comfort of their armchair long enough to venture to the very bars they've destroyed - they're probably all too busy writing angry letters to the Daily Mail, making telephone complaints to anyone, anywhere who will listen - or catching up on their macrame. Now they've got what they want - it's on to the next campaign. Bugger the businesses they've destroyed, bugger the people they've upset, bugger the jobs they've lost.

 

As for a pint costing up to £7 by 2012 - yesterday, the chancellor announced booze prices will automatically increase by 2% above the rate of inflation every year - if we have the same government, based on a pint in most cities costing £3.60, a pint, in 2012, will cost £6.47. Hardly ridiculous - and maybe the person emphatically stating "It will NEVER happen" would care to bookmark this page and check back year on year..... there are lots of things we thought would "NEVER happen" that HAVE happened in recent times.

 

Spot on Russ, especially the first paragraph... The Goth Pub that I mainly frequented in Camden has basically gone through a "re-vamp" (if you'll pardon the pun..) simply because many of the regulars were staying away, or staying for a considerably smaller period of time, because of the smoking ban... It has now become a generic "alternative" venue instead of a specific Goth/Industrial/Metal pub, all the character's gone out of the place, it sure aint worth hanging around in anymore.... :( The smoking ban has had a negative effect, well done all you bloody whingers out there.... <_< The ever-spiralling cost of a pint is just gonna make things even worse....

 

Come the day, every pub in Britain is gonna be a plastic, generic "Wetherspoons/Lloyds/Yates"-style sh!thole, there will be NO specialty pubs, NO pubs with any individuality or any character AT ALL...... And we will have the likes of Darling and the sanctimonious, pious anti-smoking brigade to thank for it..... <_< <_<

 

erm... no... it doesnt work like that!

Well I'm sorry, but I fail to see how something which is a vote winner is going to be increased by nearly 100% in the space of four years. And he's only added four pence this year, so he says he's gong to put it up 2% above inflation this year. Why believe that? When was the last time the Gov't did exactly what it said it would do? Or are you only believing it because it's a bad thing and it's another excuse to have a go at them?

Come the day, every pub in Britain is gonna be a plastic, generic "Wetherspoons/Lloyds/Yates"-style sh!thole, there will be NO specialty pubs, NO pubs with any individuality or any character AT ALL...... And we will have the likes of Darling and the sanctimonious, pious anti-smoking brigade to thank for it..... <_< <_<

 

Surely if there was enough demand for these speciality pubs they wouldn't be closing down left, right and centre? Whilst I do feel sorry for Working Mens Clubs and similar places that close, if there's not enough custom it means people don't want it, or that not enough people know about it. It's up to the establishment to gain custom, to think of ways to bring in new punters, to find new ways of bringing in money, not just give up and blame it on the government...

...considering we're entering the most unsettling period for the economy for the best part of 20 years - and nothing is totally predictable (apart from, yes, everything will go up, up, up in price), I think you can safely say inflation is set for some marked increases.

 

So you think everyone south of the country is richer? I think you may be confusing the south of Britain with London alone... where people do get 'London weighting' on their salary (not that it's woth much). The cities like Bristol, Cardiff, Birmingham.... the majority of people here are as poor as the norttherners, I can assure you... and no, they can't afford to go socialising like they used to.

And when a country is in recession, one of its main jobs is to try and get it back on its feet again, putting up taxes way above inflation isn't going to work and they will inevitibly lose voters. They say they're going to do something now, but how often do things change in a years time due to various circumstances,and could you honestly see any other party doing it differently?

 

Since when has Birmingham been in the south? If you classed Nottingham as being up north that surely Birmingham would be too as it's all in the 'Midlands'? Maybe people in those areas are as poor as northerners, I don't know entirely, I don't live there. And surely there must be reasons why the cost of a pint costs so much in these places? Land is more expensive, the cost of living is generally higher, wages are higher. I don't know, but things are the way they are for a reason.

And surely there must be reasons why the cost of a pint costs so much in these places? Land is more expensive, the cost of living is generally higher, wages are higher. I don't know, but things are the way they are for a reason.

 

When was the last time you came to Wales? Land isn't more expensive, cost of living in the main isn't higher, and wages most certainly aren't higher. However, to drink and eat out here is crazily expensive. Same with Bristol - although admittedly, land costs are more expensive... the prices in Bristol are London equivalents.

Blaming the smoking ban on the decline in pubs is a very simplistic argument and not one that I agree with, we are just living in changing times now, pubs are becoming an outdated concept with more and more alternative forms of entertainment

 

People are working longer and longer hours now so less time to go to the pub

 

There are many alternatives for people such as restaurants (restaurants are absolutely booming atm)

 

The cheap price of supermarket booze is encouraging more people to stay at home in the evenings after a hard days work

 

Technology such as games consoles, the internet, hundreds of tv channels mean there is far more for younger people to do now in the evenings instead of going to the pub

 

Fear of chavs and other gangs of unruly youths is deterring people from venturing out to the pub at night for fear of being attacked

 

People as they become more wealthy are getting more sophisticated in their drinking habits, sales of wines and champagnes are going through the roof atm so the pint of bitter / pint of lager down the local at overinflated prices no longer has appeal

 

Pubs are closing for the above reasons far more than any smoking ban

 

 

Surely if there was enough demand for these speciality pubs they wouldn't be closing down left, right and centre? Whilst I do feel sorry for Working Mens Clubs and similar places that close, if there's not enough custom it means people don't want it, or that not enough people know about it. It's up to the establishment to gain custom, to think of ways to bring in new punters, to find new ways of bringing in money, not just give up and blame it on the government...

 

 

you're missing the point entirely.

 

These establishments, workingmen's clubs in particular, are closing down as a DIRECT RESULT of this government (supposedly the party that champions the working man) hiking up alcohol to unacceptable levels and because they banned smoking ANYWHERE in these clubs which are, don't forget PRIVATE MEMBERS CLUBS. I can only assume you've never ever been in a workingman's club in your life, or ever spoken to someone in the licensing trade. Maybe you should - you'd see your points border on the ridiculous if you did.

 

The demand for these pubs IS high, these speciality ones, probably moreso now than ever in this age of nameles, faceless gastro pubs - however, myself and every other smoker I know will NOT spend a whole Saturday in the pub like we used to, or a whole Sunday afternoon in the pub or a lengthy all-nighter in a nightclub... because why go somewhere where you're allowed alcohol... yet, ask any smoker what the first thing they do when they have a pint... you're not allowed to smoke with it. If I ever venture to a bar these days - it's a quick in, swift drink, then back out again - I wouldn't dream of spending more than 15, 20 minutes in there - and, judging my the echoes and abundance of seats.... it seems neither would anyone else - smoker or non-smoker.

 

My point is, of course non-smokers have the right to a smoke-free area - but don't smokers have rights, too? Because we smoke, do we really, in your eyes, automatically become nonentities, nobodies, something to be shunned outside in the rain? Do you really think because you're a smoker, you're not worthy of a smoking area? In the warm? Where we can continue spending money in these establishments? You know, keeping them open?

 

This is why you'll see the workingmen's clubs empty - I'd say, on average, about 80 or 90% of the patrons of these places smoke - many are elderly, too. Why on earth would they venture to a place to stand outside in the howling wind and rain for a cigarette?

 

Would YOU go to a bar if you weren't allowed to drink? Would YOU stand outside with your drink because your possible drunkenness after a few jars may offend others? The anti-smoking bores may be gloating now.... but mark my words... alcohol is next on this government's agenda..... and, as far as I'm concerned - good - I've yet to be abused, beaten up or fallen on by someone smoking a fag.

 

Before you roll out the second-hand smoke malarkey - don't go there - there's absolutely nothing proven - no links discovered, despite the scaremongering. Nada. Zilch. If and when there IS a link - I'll back the non-smokers, of course. Until then.... my worries lie more in ridiculous 4x4's polluting my lungs - FAR more than a 2 and a half inch cigarette will, thankyou very much.

 

Personally, I have little interest in seeing children in, say shops or on public transport as, generally, they're an absolute nuisance and make my visit or journey a damn sight less enjoyable..... yet I wouldn't demand all kids are banned from shops or trains or buses - it's a lfestyle choice I personally find unappealing - but tough - in a civilised, supposedly democratic society, sometimes you simply have to endure other people's lifestyle choices.

 

But anyway, we're veering off-topic..... but I'd like some suggestions of how you'd save these workingmen's clubs - my local one, my uncle is the chairman - from a thriving club, busty 7 days a week, 7 nights a week - their takings have falled below the actual rent they pay on the building.... and they're facing closure within the next few months - it's a business that's been open for almost 100 years, and, until the smoking ban, was used by people, members, of all ages. For drinking, skittles, snooker and bingo. They used to hire entertainment every Friday, Saturday and Sunday..... they don't do this anymore because the last time they did - they had 8 people watching the show. So any ideas, I'm sure I can pass these on....

Surely if there was enough demand for these speciality pubs they wouldn't be closing down left, right and centre?

 

Complete c**p mate... Sorry, but you frankly have not a clue of what you speak with regards to the pub I'm talking about.. Explain this one to me then - Pre-smoking ban, constantly busy pub, full of people, from opening to closing time, post smoking ban - diminished crowds, regulars staying away or drifting off far earlier than they normally would.... The facts were that smokers in this particular bar were certainly no minority, more than HALF of the patrons were smokers, that would rather make them the MAJORITY wouldn't it...?

 

Smoking Ban = LOSS OF BUSINESS SPECIALISED PUBS mate...

 

Less Specialised Pubs = Adverse effect on music culture.. Where do the "up-and-coming" bands play if there are less and less small venues for them to play in.....?

 

Smoking Ban + Unfettered Increases of bar prices and taxes = Death of Independent music culture....

 

Until then.... my worries lie more in ridiculous 4x4's polluting my lungs - FAR more than a 2 and a half inch cigarette will, thankyou very much.

 

Spot on mate.. Ban 4x4s and SUVs from polluting our streets and our environment.. NOT smoking in Pubs..... One MINUTE exposed to carbon monoxide in a confined area WILL kill you - PROVEN FUKKIN' FACT!!!!!! There is no comparison...

 

Complete c**p mate... Sorry, but you frankly have not a clue of what you speak with regards to the pub I'm talking about.. Explain this one to me then - Pre-smoking ban, constantly busy pub, full of people, from opening to closing time, post smoking ban - diminished crowds, regulars staying away or drifting off far earlier than they normally would.... The facts were that smokers in this particular bar were certainly no minority, more than HALF of the patrons were smokers, that would rather make them the MAJORITY wouldn't it...?

 

Smoking Ban = LOSS OF BUSINESS SPECIALISED PUBS mate...

 

Less Specialised Pubs = Adverse effect on music culture.. Where do the "up-and-coming" bands play if there are less and less small venues for them to play in.....?

 

Smoking Ban + Unfettered Increases of bar prices and taxes = Death of Independent music culture....

 

you dont half come out with some bollox m8 :lol:

 

im glad the smoking ban came in... but im not going around in circles again arguing the nonsensicle comparisons between fags and cars.

you dont half come out with some bollox m8 :lol:

 

How the hell is it bollock mate..? You dont even know what you're talking about up there in suburban little Derbyland..... :P :lol:

 

The facts are in Camden, already three pretty important pubs (in terms of the overall music scene here) have either closed down or had a "change of management", and more are under threat of takeover or closure... Places where some now pretty big names had their first gigs/breaks....

 

What we are starting to witness here is nothing short of the slow death of independent musical culture in this country... The more pubs that close down or "revamp" to become generic sh!tholes, the less places there are for struggling musicians/bands to play in.... There used to be regular gigs in the pub that I went to, now, nothing.....

 

How the hell is it bollock mate..? You dont even know what you're talking about up there in suburban little Derbyland..... :P :lol:

 

The facts are in Camden, already three pretty important pubs (in terms of the overall music scene here) have either closed down or had a "change of management", and more are under threat of takeover or closure... Places where some now pretty big names had their first gigs/breaks....

 

What we are starting to witness here is nothing short of the slow death of independent musical culture in this country... The more pubs that close down or "revamp" to become generic sh!tholes, the less places there are for struggling musicians/bands to play in.... There used to be regular gigs in the pub that I went to, now, nothing.....

 

oh im against pubs losing their identity to large corporations, thats whats killing pubs, not the smoking ban!

 

you have a very funny image of 'derbyland' if you think its something off 'the good life' or 'terry and june'... try 'the royle family' and youll be closer to the mark! :lol:

 

besides camden isnt reprisentitive of the majority of the uk... derby is far closer.

besides camden isnt reprisentitive of the majority of the uk... derby is far closer.

 

Then God help us all..... :P :lol: