I'm not interested in estimates and expectations, I'd like real facts and figures as apposed to what people THINK will happen. The graph you provided confused the hell out of me, mostly because I've never seen a graph where it's data floats in the middle of it, and because I wanted to see the graph for myself, so if you could provide the direct link for the graph, that would be awesome. I also went onto the site you referenced to and found this page:

 

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1311

 

and this page:

 

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1305

 

And from what I can see, the figures reach no where near a million. I apologize if I've read the information wrong.

 

That graph is taken from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_t...-present_day%29

 

As for the point of this bar graph:

 

The Top of each year's bar is the total number of immigrants into the UK population.

The Bottom of the bar is the total number of migrants out of the UK population.

Hence the stretched green area in between is the number (in thousands) of the net gain to the UK population.

 

However, what I did not stress, is that these figures in this bar chart include domestic mortality. Therefore birth's are added to the immigrants figure, and death's are added to the migrants figure. However domestic births have outweighed domestic deaths by between 150,000 - 200,000 in each of these years. Therefore the significant majority of the net increase to the population comes from outside of natural increase (more births than deaths), but via net migration (more immigrants than emigrants).

 

Another site that possesses useful information on this is http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.toomany.uk.html

 

The fact that we have the fastest growing population in Europe, when we already have the most densely populus in Europe outside of Belgium & Holland should speak volumes.

 

As Harriet Harmon's (& therefore New Labour's stupidity) was exposed on Last Night's Question Time when asked about immigration where she strongly inferred than anyone who thinks the level of immigration is unacceptably high is a racist. Where she was then torn to pieces by former ultra left wing NME journalist in the punk new wave era Tony Parsons (now a "30 something" novelist) The problem of immigration is multi-faceted and not just about race, It is about the impact it has on Climate change, Water & Food consumption and supply, Consumption of energy and insecurity of energy supply, Economic impacts, Countryside, housing and development, Transport, Ageing and unemployment. Also if too many immigrants come into the country at the same time then that does not give them the proper opportunity to assimulate into the UK population. (Coincidentally, John Lydon made very similar points about the UK being too overcrowded less than a week beforehand on Radio5Live when being interviewed by Simon Mayo)

 

Also worth noting that the official United Nations line on population growth is that population should be allowed to stabilise and decrease by not less than 0.25% a year to an environmentally sustainable level, by bringing immigration into numerical balance with emigration, by making greater efforts to reduce teenage pregnancies, and by encouraging couples to "Stop at Two" children.

 

Yet the UK population is growing by nearly twice that amount at 0.47% per year.

 

The bottom line is that the fear of immigration lies squarely at the door of the Labour Government. Especially as proven last night when Harriet Harmon dismissed the latest YouGov poll where 69% of those replied think the UK is already overcrowded. Incidentally the growth of the UK population per annum between 1979 & 1997 was 0.22%. If this Labour Government are unwilling to listen to majority of the UK populations fears then they will be helping to light their own funeral pyre at the next General Election in 2009.

 

The bottom line to this debate is Immigration is good for the UK, so long as it is at a manageable level, where these new citizens can get a fair & proper chance to assimulate into the UK population without being exploited, whilst not placing a negative strain on the nations economic, housing, services, health & environmental infrastructure.

 

But like any business, if you cannot control and accurately monitor your incomings and outcomings properly, then you are heading for trouble. This debate (for me anyway) has nothing to do with Enoch Powell or the R word) but fundamentally everything to do with basic housekeeping.

fair dos m8, but are you telling me rural cheshire is multicultural? cos the rural places/people i know dont think so (but there are migrants picking veg)

No, its not multicultural, which proves my point! Even here, one of the least ethnically-diverse areas in the country (something like 98% of people are white), theres still no "British way of life", everyone just does whatever they want, because that is the closest thing Britain has to a national identity today - not having to conform to any stereotypes, so how are immigrants going to erode that?

Like I said though, I agree theres going to need to be a cap on annual immigration, our infrastructure just wont be able to cope. But they are certainly not going to erode Britains way of life because there isnt one anymore.

Edited April 18, 200817 yr by Danny

No, its not multicultural, which proves my point! Even here, one of the least ethnically-diverse areas in the country (something like 98% of people are white), theres still no "British way of life", everyone just does whatever they want, because that is the closest thing Britain has to a national identity today - not having to conform to any stereotypes, so how are immigrants going to erode that?

Like I said though, I agree theres going to need to be a cap on annual immigration, our infrastructure just wont be able to cope. But they are certainly not going to erode Britains way of life because there isnt one anymore.

 

oh right... :), sorry i misunderstood you.

 

thatcher was intrumental in destroying 'britishness' though with her 'look after yourself' and 'theres no such thing as society' lines.. <_<.

 

i would disagree with you though in as much that 'englishness' does still exist, and only yesterday there was a poll in which 25% polled thought that immigration had changed british society.

As Harriet Harmon's (& therefore New Labour's stupidity) was exposed on Last Night's Question Time when asked about immigration where she strongly inferred than anyone who thinks the level of immigration is unacceptably high is a racist. Where she was then torn to pieces by former ultra left wing NME journalist in the punk new wave era Tony Parsons (now a "30 something" novelist) The problem of immigration is multi-faceted and not just about race, It is about the impact it has on Climate change, Water & Food consumption and supply, Consumption of energy and insecurity of energy supply, Economic impacts, Countryside, housing and development, Transport, Ageing and unemployment. Also if too many immigrants come into the country at the same time then that does not give them the proper opportunity to assimulate into the UK population. (Coincidentally, John Lydon made very similar points about the UK being too overcrowded less than a week beforehand on Radio5Live when being interviewed by Simon Mayo)

 

Also worth noting that the official United Nations line on population growth is that population should be allowed to stabilise and decrease by not less than 0.25% a year to an environmentally sustainable level, by bringing immigration into numerical balance with emigration, by making greater efforts to reduce teenage pregnancies, and by encouraging couples to "Stop at Two" children.

 

Yet the UK population is growing by nearly twice that amount at 0.47% per year.

 

The bottom line is that the fear of immigration lies squarely at the door of the Labour Government. Especially as proven last night when Harriet Harmon dismissed the latest YouGov poll where 69% of those replied think the UK is already overcrowded. Incidentally the growth of the UK population per annum between 1979 & 1997 was 0.22%. If this Labour Government are unwilling to listen to majority of the UK populations fears then they will be helping to light their own funeral pyre at the next General Election in 2009.

 

The bottom line to this debate is Immigration is good for the UK, so long as it is at a manageable level, where these new citizens can get a fair & proper chance to assimulate into the UK population without being exploited, whilst not placing a negative strain on the nations economic, housing, services, health & environmental infrastructure.

 

But like any business, if you cannot control and accurately monitor your in comings and out comings properly, then you are heading for trouble. This debate (for me anyway) has nothing to do with Enoch Powell or the R word) but fundamentally everything to do with basic housekeeping.

 

this post is absolutely 100% spot on. cod here has intelligently illustrated what i was fumbling to say.

 

"The problem of immigration is multi-faceted and not just about race, It is about the impact it has on Climate change, Water & Food consumption and supply, Consumption of energy and insecurity of energy supply, Economic impacts, Countryside, housing and development, Transport, Ageing and unemployment"

 

this is the point, with the uks population expected to rise by 5 million in 8 years, thats around 1% per year, thats where there are now 12 people in 5 years there will be 13.

 

the impact on the uk will be tremendous, a huge strain on the benefits system as only a fraction of immigrants are highly skilled/paid workers, we are expected to subsidise most. what will happen is growing resentment especially amongst the lower paid, wages will be kept low, yet taxes both direct and indirect will rise, as will fuel bills and food.

 

this isnt a racist issue, as cod said, its basic good houskeeping, without it there will be trouble... and you, the young, will be the ones to suffer most.

Surely to actually put some kind of cap on immigration we'd have to leave Europe?

 

I'm not really up on the subject but from what I understand if you're in the EU your borders HAVE to be opened to other EU citizens (part of 'the free movement of goods, labour and capital') but is it really likely that we'll leave Europe in the forseeable future?

Surely to actually put some kind of cap on immigration we'd have to leave Europe?

 

I'm not really up on the subject but from what I understand if you're in the EU your borders HAVE to be opened to other EU citizens (part of 'the free movement of goods, labour and capital') but is it really likely that we'll leave Europe in the forseeable future?

Yes, but if youre in the EU, you also HAVE to have the Euro, technically. We negotiated an opt-out on that (as did Sweden and Denmark) and we can negotiate an opt-out on this, though admittedly it probably wouldnt make us very popular...

Yes, but if youre in the EU, you also HAVE to have the Euro, technically. We negotiated an opt-out on that (as did Sweden and Denmark) and we can negotiate an opt-out on this, though admittedly it probably wouldnt make us very popular...

 

Well the way the £ sterling is falling in comparison with the € Euro we might as well sign up for that, as it has fallen 18% in value over the past year, and the rate it is going it will be £1 : €1 sometime in 2010.

 

But's that probably another debate. :lol:

Surely to actually put some kind of cap on immigration we'd have to leave Europe?

 

I'm not really up on the subject but from what I understand if you're in the EU your borders HAVE to be opened to other EU citizens (part of 'the free movement of goods, labour and capital') but is it really likely that we'll leave Europe in the forseeable future?

 

yep thats correct, a blunder that the government didnt forsee and now we are stuck with it.

 

i think the government should go to the eec for extra money to cope, reducing the amount they give to developing countries to pay for it.

 

one way or another we cannot go on like this. we are heading for big trouble, i cant see that the future looks very rosey for the young.

 

the head of equality and human rights commission this morning has reportedly said that theres a developing cold war between different immigrants living here, pretty much what dispatches revealed last monday and making enoch powels predictions looking more true.

Sunday, 20 April 2008 09:20 UK

Phillips warns of race 'cold war'

BBC News

 

The head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission says tension over immigration is leading to a "cold war" among rival ethnic communities.

 

Trevor Phillips will speak later to mark the 40th anniversary of Enoch Powell's "rivers of blood" speech.

He will warn that Mr Powell's extreme views discredited planning and control, so that the government "knew too little about what was going on".

 

Although Mr Phillips will say Mr Powell's apocalyptic predictions have not come true, he will acknowledge mass immigration has caused a different kind of conflict.

 

"Powell predicted 'hot' conflict and violence. However, we have seen the emergence of a kind of cold war in some parts of the country, where very separate communities exist side by side... with poor communication across racial or religious lines," Mr Phillips is expected to say.

 

Powell's 'rivers of blood' legacy

 

Because Mr Powell discredited any talk of planning or control, it gave rise to a "migration policy in which government knew too little about what was going on", he will continue.

 

"Ironically, Powellism and the weakening of control it engendered may have led Britain to admitting more immigrants rather than fewer."

 

Mr Phillips is expected to warn ministers they are helping to boost the support for anti-immigration parties such as the BNP by failing to deal with the concerns of sections of the "settled" population - such as professionals and young mothers.

 

"For every professional woman who is able to go out to work because she has a Polish nanny, there is a young mother who watches her child struggle in a classroom where a harassed teacher faces too many children with too many languages between them.

"Wanting a better deal for her child doesn't make her anti-immigrant. But if we can't find a better answer to her despair then she soon will be."

 

He will add that while professionals may appreciate the ability to import skilled IT or health professionals, many will also wonder "why they have to put up with the misery of a packed railway carriage or bus - if they can get on in the first place".

"Wanting an infrastructure that doesn't make getting to work daily hell doesn't make someone a natural voter for an anti-immigrant party. But it soon will."

 

Mr Phillips will deliver his speech at the Midland Hotel - the same Birmingham hotel where Mr Powell sparked public debate in 1968.

 

The then shadow frontbencher warned of social tensions in pockets of Britain - such as Wolverhampton - if mass immigration continued.

He compared racial tensions in the United States to the Roman poet Virgil's description of "the River Tiber foaming with much blood" and said anti-discrimination laws were like "throwing a match on to gunpowder".

 

Shadow home secretary David Davis said Mr Phillips was raising "a brave and timely warning" about losing control of immigration.

"Whilst managed immigration is for the benefit of the country, uncontrolled immigration can lead to serious problems for the whole nation," he said.

 

A spokeswoman for the UK Border Agency said policy changes, such as introducing ID cards for foreign nationals and the new points-based immigration system for non-EU residents, would ensure Britain had "one of the toughest borders in the world".

"Understanding the impacts of migration on communities and public services is essential, which is why the Migration Impacts Forum (MIF) was set up," she added.

 

"We need to strike a balance in Britain's migration policy, weighing the economic benefits with frontline feedback about wider impacts."

 

 

 

 

Sunday, 20 April 2008 09:20 UK

Phillips warns of race 'cold war'

BBC News

 

The head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission says tension over immigration is leading to a "cold war" among rival ethnic communities.

 

Trevor Phillips will speak later to mark the 40th anniversary of Enoch Powell's "rivers of blood" speech.

He will warn that Mr Powell's extreme views discredited planning and control, so that the government "knew too little about what was going on".

 

Although Mr Phillips will say Mr Powell's apocalyptic predictions have not come true, he will acknowledge mass immigration has caused a different kind of conflict.

 

"Powell predicted 'hot' conflict and violence. However, we have seen the emergence of a kind of cold war in some parts of the country, where very separate communities exist side by side... with poor communication across racial or religious lines," Mr Phillips is expected to say.

 

Powell's 'rivers of blood' legacy

 

Because Mr Powell discredited any talk of planning or control, it gave rise to a "migration policy in which government knew too little about what was going on", he will continue.

 

"Ironically, Powellism and the weakening of control it engendered may have led Britain to admitting more immigrants rather than fewer."

 

Mr Phillips is expected to warn ministers they are helping to boost the support for anti-immigration parties such as the BNP by failing to deal with the concerns of sections of the "settled" population - such as professionals and young mothers.

 

"For every professional woman who is able to go out to work because she has a Polish nanny, there is a young mother who watches her child struggle in a classroom where a harassed teacher faces too many children with too many languages between them.

"Wanting a better deal for her child doesn't make her anti-immigrant. But if we can't find a better answer to her despair then she soon will be."

 

He will add that while professionals may appreciate the ability to import skilled IT or health professionals, many will also wonder "why they have to put up with the misery of a packed railway carriage or bus - if they can get on in the first place".

"Wanting an infrastructure that doesn't make getting to work daily hell doesn't make someone a natural voter for an anti-immigrant party. But it soon will."

 

Mr Phillips will deliver his speech at the Midland Hotel - the same Birmingham hotel where Mr Powell sparked public debate in 1968.

 

The then shadow frontbencher warned of social tensions in pockets of Britain - such as Wolverhampton - if mass immigration continued.

He compared racial tensions in the United States to the Roman poet Virgil's description of "the River Tiber foaming with much blood" and said anti-discrimination laws were like "throwing a match on to gunpowder".

 

Shadow home secretary David Davis said Mr Phillips was raising "a brave and timely warning" about losing control of immigration.

"Whilst managed immigration is for the benefit of the country, uncontrolled immigration can lead to serious problems for the whole nation," he said.

 

A spokeswoman for the UK Border Agency said policy changes, such as introducing ID cards for foreign nationals and the new points-based immigration system for non-EU residents, would ensure Britain had "one of the toughest borders in the world".

"Understanding the impacts of migration on communities and public services is essential, which is why the Migration Impacts Forum (MIF) was set up," she added.

 

"We need to strike a balance in Britain's migration policy, weighing the economic benefits with frontline feedback about wider impacts."

 

thats the bloke! lol

 

nice to see someone in authority (a black person at that....just incase any pc heads thought it was a racist comment), actually talking sense.

No matter what nationality, the best qualified and best suited to the job should get the job. Simple.

No matter what nationality, the best qualified and best suited to the job should get the job. Simple.

 

not quite as straightforeward as that though. the problem is mass immigration, so they would in most cases, need to be here first in order to apply for the job. id suggest that we close our boarders to all unless they have a job before coming here.