In an exclusive interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Max Mosley argues that what he does in his private life is no reason for him to resign and that Britain needs stronger privacy laws.

 

The Formula One head admits to eccentricity in his private life but says: "I think most adults would say that whatever in that spectrum somebody does, provided it doesn't hurt anybody, provided it's consensual, provided it's among adults, provided it's in private, it concerns nobody but the people doing it."

 

Should public figures have a greater right to privacy? Do we need to strengthen privacy laws? Or does the internet make it impossible for famous people to keep their lives private?

 

When is it in the public interest for the media to report on the private lives of prominent people? Does the fact that they have put themselves in the spotlight mean that they are fair game? Are politicians fair game or does everyone deserve privacy?

 

 

Source: Sunday Telegraph

 

unless it impinges on their public life or their ability to do their job properly then no. everyone has the right to a LEGAL private life.

I think that he is exactly right. As long as what they are doing is legal, concensual, and not harming anyone then it is fine and should be left alone by the public.

Edited April 21, 200817 yr by Tyler

Yes so long as they are not breaking any laws then private life is a matter for that person and their family, no one else's business

I was going to write my dissertation on this next year, but I just changed it. But it's my reserve, so I might be digging this thread up in a couple of months to get more opinions :P

 

But for now I'll keep it brief. It's wrong. "They're famous, and they knew what they were getting into" isn't a good enough excuse to be taking pictures up an 18 year old girls skirt, or to be outing people in the News of the World IMO. Constructive criticism, advice, and debate obviously come with the territory of being in the public eye, but more and more IMO the press have used those in the public eye as targets to simply be malicious about people IMO. If it's safe, I don't feel any need to know all sorts of nonsense about who's fat, who's gay etc. Even people in the public eye deserve their lives, being followed by press is no way to live. Of course it's possible to live a quieter life (I'm thinking Helen Mirren, Judie Dench etc, are hugely successful, but live without the media glare most of the time), but IMO this country has taken a nose dive in terms of elite figures. I personally think you should have to work hard, for a long time, to gain recognition in a specific field, and after you've done so you deserve your life with any amount of press interest you want - but it shouldn't be forced onto anyone. I know people say that some public figures use the press to their advantage, and argue you have it all the time, or none. I don't think that's fair. Of course artists, singers, politicans etc all use the media to their advantage, but we all use the people around us and our colleagues in our jobs to make the best of ourselves surely, and don't think it's okay for that to come back biting us on the ass.

 

I complete disagree with all of you in this particular case. The News of The World are 100% correct to publish this, because it is most definitely in the public interest.

 

For those of you who are not clued up:

 

Max Mosley was exposed by the News of The World in participating in a sadomasochistic sex session with five call girls in an orgy with five prostitutes dressed in Nazi-style uniforms and striped pyjama suits evoking the victims of the Holocaust was unveiled across five pages of Britain's biggest-selling newspaper including being subjected to a search for lice by a jack-booted vice girl asking if he had been "keeping clean at the other facility", .

 

However Max Mosley is the head of a Billion dollar worldwide organisation whose showpiece is the Formula 1 Motor Racing series whose races are watched by an average worldwide audience of 150 million people per race.

 

In that week opinion polls on numerous Internet News & Motor Racing sites showing an 80-90% : 10-20% split saying that Max Mosley's behaviour was disgusting and that he should resign as the public face of Formula One. Amid reports of dismay among F1 teams from Germany, where BMW and Mercedes are based, to Japan where Toyota & Honda are based, one senior figure in a European team said: "On the one hand what Max supposedly does in the privacy of a London sex dungeon is his own business. On the other, it is unbelievably damaging for his name of all names to be identified with a fantasy about one of the biggest crimes in human history".

 

That was the view the overwhelming majority of people on websites who give a toss about this sort of thing feel. This included the Dutch, German, Israeli & most damaging the American Motoring Organisations who all called for his resignation.

 

When you also consider that Max Mosley was the son of Oswald Mosley leader of the Fascist Party who very nearly gained power in the UK in the 1930s, who had Nazi Leader Adolf Hitler & Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini attend his wedding, then you can start to understand why Jewish groups, including the Holocaust centre, have called for his resignation in the strongest possible terms.

 

For those of you who are not aware the British Fascist Party were a much more extreme version of the BNP. There manifesto was anti-Semitic. Indeed Oswald Mosley infamously said about Blacks "Nigers are only fit for slave labour" and homosexuals "Should be eradicated as it is abhorrent, ungodly & unnatural".

 

Born in April 1940 when his father, the former Labour minister who became leader of the British Union of Fascists, had been interned by a government concerned at his calls for an accommodation to be sought with Hitler, Max Mosley was separated from his parents for the first two years of his life.

 

Yet all through Max Mosley's life he supported his aging father when he set up the ultra right-wing Union Party in the 1950s he was his agent. In the 1970s after the death of his father he disowned his brother, after his brother wrote an autobiography criticising his father and his extreme viewpoints. Furthermore, in 1978 Max Mosley famously and outrageously commented "Britain would have been better off if my father was in power as we would have done a deal to not go to war and would be economically more prosperous". These comments caused outrage in the media then and cost him the opportunity of standing as a Conservative MP in the 1979 election so he pursued a career in Motor Racing instead.

 

Of course someone's opinions should not have an impact on someone's ability to do a job.

 

However on Oct31 2007 he really outraged British F1 fans with his comments "Hamilton is negative for Formula 1". This was met by outrage in many quarters, not least as Lewis Hamilton is the first black F1 driver in its 57 year history. In his debut year he smashed all records for a debutant (he was 66-1 to win the World Title at the start of the season) in the sport winning four races and outperforming his team-mate and then World Champion Fernando Alonso only failing to win the World Title in the final race to Kimi Raikkonnen after leading virtually all year by just 1 point. To many racing pundits Lewis Hamilton was regarded as a breathe of fresh air with good looks and unusually for a Grand Prix driver a personality which brought interest from non-F1 fans into the sport.

 

Also Max Mosley is currently in litigation with the F1 Journalist of the Year 2007 Derek Brundle & The Times newspaper over a view that Martin made regarding his alleged less than consistent treatment of the McLaren F1 team & Renault F1 team with regards the very different outcomes of spy cases of other teams data (McLaren using Ferrari data; Renault using McLaren data) when most neutral Motor Racing experts agreed with Mr Brundle that Renault's offenses were the worse of the two and on a greater scale yet they got off scot free; whilst McLaren got heavily penalised.

 

Also in the self same grandiose 5 page "rant" he has called for privacy laws to be introduced in the UK, like they have in Western Europe. These are the self same privacy laws that allowed Belgium politicians to quite literally get away with murder in the 1990s because the media in that country were powerless to print allegations that subsequently turned out to be true.

I complete disagree with all of you in this particular case. The News of The World are 100% correct to publish this, because it is most definitely in the public interest.

 

For those of you who are not clued up:

 

Max Mosley was exposed by the News of The World in participating in a sadomasochistic sex session with five call girls in an orgy with five prostitutes dressed in Nazi-style uniforms and striped pyjama suits evoking the victims of the Holocaust was unveiled across five pages of Britain's biggest-selling newspaper including being subjected to a search for lice by a jack-booted vice girl asking if he had been "keeping clean at the other facility", .

 

However Max Mosley is the head of a Billion dollar worldwide organisation whose showpiece is the Formula 1 Motor Racing series whose races are watched by an average worldwide audience of 150 million people per race.

 

In that week opinion polls on numerous Internet News & Motor Racing sites showing an 80-90% : 10-20% split saying that Max Mosley's behaviour was disgusting and that he should resign as the public face of Formula One. Amid reports of dismay among F1 teams from Germany, where BMW and Mercedes are based, to Japan where Toyota & Honda are based, one senior figure in a European team said: "On the one hand what Max supposedly does in the privacy of a London sex dungeon is his own business. On the other, it is unbelievably damaging for his name of all names to be identified with a fantasy about one of the biggest crimes in human history".

 

That was the view the overwhelming majority of people on websites who give a toss about this sort of thing feel. This included the Dutch, German, Israeli & most damaging the American Motoring Organisations who all called for his resignation.

 

When you also consider that Max Mosley was the son of Oswald Mosley leader of the Fascist Party who very nearly gained power in the UK in the 1930s, who had Nazi Leader Adolf Hitler & Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini attend his wedding, then you can start to understand why Jewish groups, including the Holocaust centre, have called for his resignation in the strongest possible terms.

 

For those of you who are not aware the British Fascist Party were a much more extreme version of the BNP. There manifesto was anti-Semitic. Indeed Oswald Mosley infamously said about Blacks "Nigers are only fit for slave labour" and homosexuals "Should be eradicated as it is abhorrent, ungodly & unnatural".

 

Born in April 1940 when his father, the former Labour minister who became leader of the British Union of Fascists, had been interned by a government concerned at his calls for an accommodation to be sought with Hitler, Max Mosley was separated from his parents for the first two years of his life.

 

Yet all through Max Mosley's life he supported his aging father when he set up the ultra right-wing Union Party in the 1950s he was his agent. In the 1970s after the death of his father he disowned his brother, after his brother wrote an autobiography criticising his father and his extreme viewpoints. Furthermore, in 1978 Max Mosley famously and outrageously commented "Britain would have been better off if my father was in power as we would have done a deal to not go to war and would be economically more prosperous". These comments caused outrage in the media then and cost him the opportunity of standing as a Conservative MP in the 1979 election so he pursued a career in Motor Racing instead.

 

Of course someone's opinions should not have an impact on someone's ability to do a job.

 

However on Oct31 2007 he really outraged British F1 fans with his comments "Hamilton is negative for Formula 1". This was met by outrage in many quarters, not least as Lewis Hamilton is the first black F1 driver in its 57 year history. In his debut year he smashed all records for a debutant (he was 66-1 to win the World Title at the start of the season) in the sport winning four races and outperforming his team-mate and then World Champion Fernando Alonso only failing to win the World Title in the final race to Kimi Raikkonnen after leading virtually all year by just 1 point. To many racing pundits Lewis Hamilton was regarded as a breathe of fresh air with good looks and unusually for a Grand Prix driver a personality which brought interest from non-F1 fans into the sport.

 

Also Max Mosley is currently in litigation with the F1 Journalist of the Year 2007 Derek Brundle & The Times newspaper over a view that Martin made regarding his alleged less than consistent treatment of the McLaren F1 team & Renault F1 team with regards the very different outcomes of spy cases of other teams data (McLaren using Ferrari data; Renault using McLaren data) when most neutral Motor Racing experts agreed with Mr Brundle that Renault's offenses were the worse of the two and on a greater scale yet they got off scot free; whilst McLaren got heavily penalised.

 

Also in the self same grandiose 5 page "rant" he has called for privacy laws to be introduced in the UK, like they have in Western Europe. These are the self same privacy laws that allowed Belgium politicians to quite literally get away with murder in the 1990s because the media in that country were powerless to print allegations that subsequently turned out to be true.

 

a very elequent post as ever... but

 

1 craig is a jew and he isnt objecting

 

2 'exposed by the news of the world '.... hmmm... gotta be the truth then! :lol:

 

sorry i disagree.... whatever people do in their consenting, adult, LEGAL, privatelives it has fcuk all to do with anybody else regardless. you cannot have a situation where you are dictated to how you enjoy your PRIVATE sexlives even if it involves potential objectionable role play... if they bring it into the public domain THEN people have the right to criticise.

 

and personally i wouldnt trust a single word the news of the world prints.

a very elequent post as ever... but

 

1 craig is a jew and he isnt objecting

 

2 'exposed by the news of the world '.... hmmm... gotta be the truth then! :lol:

 

sorry i disagree.... whatever people do in their consenting, adult, LEGAL, privatelives it has fcuk all to do with anybody else regardless. you cannot have a situation where you are dictated to how you enjoy your PRIVATE sexlives even if it involves potential objectionable role play... if they bring it into the public domain THEN people have the right to criticise.

 

and personally i wouldnt trust a single word the news of the world prints.

 

Well you had no such qualms when the News of the World & it's daily equivalent The Sun exposed Heather Mills as a "Hooker, Liar, Porn Star, Fantasist, Trouble Maker, Shoplifter"!

 

Only today in Russia, legislation is being pushed through to muzzle their press, from reporting Putin's divorce, and affair with a former Olympic gymnast. I guess you would rather see that occur in the UK as well, where the have's can get away with all sorts of things, because the press can't print these stories, then?

 

As things stand now, the law is perfectly fair, if the media print "untruths" then they rightly risk get sued for hundred's of thousands of pounds.

 

At for Craig being a Jew and not objecting, I think you should note Craig is a fan of Ferrari, so is more than happy at the measures taken to penalise their chief constructor rivals of the last few years McLaren, so that is why he is not complaining as Ferrari are already showing signs of running away with this year's Constructors & Drivers championship. Whilst Max Moseley is a regular fund donator to the Conservative party.

 

As for the nation of Israel itself:

 

25 April 2008 18:23 UK

BBC Sports News

Israelis withdraw Mosley invite

 

Under-fire FIA president Max Mosley has had an official invitation to visit Israel "withdrawn immediately".

Minister of Science, Culture and Sport, Galeb Majadle, acted after learning of the recent scandal involving Mosley.

 

He was accused by a newspaper of taking part in a "Nazi-style orgy". He denies his deeds had Nazi connotations.

The news comes on the day Mosley denied avoiding F1 races and confirmed he will be at May's Grand Prix in Monaco, where he has a home.

 

Majadle met Mosley this week at the inaugural Jordan Rally, but was unaware of the scandal surrounding the 68-year-old Briton.

His ministry issued a statement on Friday claiming that "his invitation was not intended to be personal to Mosley himself, but rather to the representative of the FIA as a global organisation".

 

The turnaround is a blow for the embattled Mosley, who has come out fighting after numerous calls for his resignation as motorsport's world chief.

He was not at the Bahrain GP on 6 April, after the Gulf state's rulers made clear his presence would not be welcome.

And some critics suggested his absence from this weekend's Spanish GP was to avoid any potential embarrassment to the King of Spain.

 

But Mosley said he never had any plan to attend the Barcelona event and insisted he would be present at Monaco in May.

"I never had any intentions of going to Barcelona, because I had nothing to do there," he said, despite the fact that the FIA launched an anti-racism campaign at the Spanish circuit this week.

"I only went to one complete F1 race last year. That was Monaco, and that was because I live there."

"I will be going to the Monaco GP [in May]. I live there."

 

The FIA also issued a statement saying it appreciated the nature of Majadle's position.

"The FIA is grateful to Galeb Majadle for extending an invitation to visit Israel.

"The FIA is delighted with the recent legalisation of motor sport in the country and intends to offer the minister every assistance in what promises to be a major addition to motor sport in the region.

"The FIA understands the circumstances under which the minister's invitation has now been withdrawn."

 

In the statement, Mosley was quoted as saying: "I fully understand the minister's position and look forward to resuming contact with him when the News of the World's deliberate and calculated lies have been comprehensively refuted."

 

Mosley is suing the News of the World for unlimited damages, but the newspaper has repeatedly said it stands by its story.

 

Former champions, several car manufacturers, and some FIA members have called for Mosley to quit. Mosley has said he will not seek another term beyond October 2009 - if he survives a vote of confidence.

That ballot will take place at an FIA general assembly in Paris on 3 June, nine days after the Monaco GP.

"My inclination is to stand and fight," he said. "If they wish me to continue, I will continue, if they don't, I'll stop."

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Lastly as I have some Germanic blood in me, I have to say that I am personally appalled how anyone can sexually fantasise about being a Nazi. For me that is about as sick as you can get short of fantasising about having sex with children! But hey that is only my personal opinion. But if I was in charge of UK laws then I would definitely make it a jailable offense for the sick, depraved activity that it is.

 

I complete disagree with all of you in this particular case. The News of The World are 100% correct to publish this, because it is most definitely in the public interest.

 

For those of you who are not clued up:

 

Max Mosley was exposed by the News of The World in participating in a sadomasochistic sex session with five call girls in an orgy with five prostitutes dressed in Nazi-style uniforms and striped pyjama suits evoking the victims of the Holocaust was unveiled across five pages of Britain's biggest-selling newspaper including being subjected to a search for lice by a jack-booted vice girl asking if he had been "keeping clean at the other facility", .

 

However Max Mosley is the head of a Billion dollar worldwide organisation whose showpiece is the Formula 1 Motor Racing series whose races are watched by an average worldwide audience of 150 million people per race.

 

In that week opinion polls on numerous Internet News & Motor Racing sites showing an 80-90% : 10-20% split saying that Max Mosley's behaviour was disgusting and that he should resign as the public face of Formula One. Amid reports of dismay among F1 teams from Germany, where BMW and Mercedes are based, to Japan where Toyota & Honda are based, one senior figure in a European team said: "On the one hand what Max supposedly does in the privacy of a London sex dungeon is his own business. On the other, it is unbelievably damaging for his name of all names to be identified with a fantasy about one of the biggest crimes in human history".

 

That was the view the overwhelming majority of people on websites who give a toss about this sort of thing feel. This included the Dutch, German, Israeli & most damaging the American Motoring Organisations who all called for his resignation.

 

When you also consider that Max Mosley was the son of Oswald Mosley leader of the Fascist Party who very nearly gained power in the UK in the 1930s, who had Nazi Leader Adolf Hitler & Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini attend his wedding, then you can start to understand why Jewish groups, including the Holocaust centre, have called for his resignation in the strongest possible terms.

 

For those of you who are not aware the British Fascist Party were a much more extreme version of the BNP. There manifesto was anti-Semitic. Indeed Oswald Mosley infamously said about Blacks "Nigers are only fit for slave labour" and homosexuals "Should be eradicated as it is abhorrent, ungodly & unnatural".

 

Born in April 1940 when his father, the former Labour minister who became leader of the British Union of Fascists, had been interned by a government concerned at his calls for an accommodation to be sought with Hitler, Max Mosley was separated from his parents for the first two years of his life.

 

Yet all through Max Mosley's life he supported his aging father when he set up the ultra right-wing Union Party in the 1950s he was his agent. In the 1970s after the death of his father he disowned his brother, after his brother wrote an autobiography criticising his father and his extreme viewpoints. Furthermore, in 1978 Max Mosley famously and outrageously commented "Britain would have been better off if my father was in power as we would have done a deal to not go to war and would be economically more prosperous". These comments caused outrage in the media then and cost him the opportunity of standing as a Conservative MP in the 1979 election so he pursued a career in Motor Racing instead.

 

Of course someone's opinions should not have an impact on someone's ability to do a job.

 

However on Oct31 2007 he really outraged British F1 fans with his comments "Hamilton is negative for Formula 1". This was met by outrage in many quarters, not least as Lewis Hamilton is the first black F1 driver in its 57 year history. In his debut year he smashed all records for a debutant (he was 66-1 to win the World Title at the start of the season) in the sport winning four races and outperforming his team-mate and then World Champion Fernando Alonso only failing to win the World Title in the final race to Kimi Raikkonnen after leading virtually all year by just 1 point. To many racing pundits Lewis Hamilton was regarded as a breathe of fresh air with good looks and unusually for a Grand Prix driver a personality which brought interest from non-F1 fans into the sport.

 

Also Max Mosley is currently in litigation with the F1 Journalist of the Year 2007 Derek Brundle & The Times newspaper over a view that Martin made regarding his alleged less than consistent treatment of the McLaren F1 team & Renault F1 team with regards the very different outcomes of spy cases of other teams data (McLaren using Ferrari data; Renault using McLaren data) when most neutral Motor Racing experts agreed with Mr Brundle that Renault's offenses were the worse of the two and on a greater scale yet they got off scot free; whilst McLaren got heavily penalised.

 

Also in the self same grandiose 5 page "rant" he has called for privacy laws to be introduced in the UK, like they have in Western Europe. These are the self same privacy laws that allowed Belgium politicians to quite literally get away with murder in the 1990s because the media in that country were powerless to print allegations that subsequently turned out to be true.

 

Fascinating post of which you clearly put a lot of time and effort into, its a shame that there are so many inaccuracies that totally destroy its credibility, I don't know how to use multi quote so I will bold my writing

 

"Max Mosley was exposed by the News of The World in participating in a sadomasochistic sex session with five call girls in an orgy with five prostitutes dressed in Nazi-style uniforms and striped pyjama suits evoking the victims of the Holocaust was unveiled across five pages of Britain's biggest-selling newspaper including being subjected to a search for lice by a jack-booted vice girl asking if he had been "keeping clean at the other facility"

 

Totally wrong, this was standard BDSM Prisoner/Guard fare, no connection at all with Nazi Germany, one of the uniforms bore a passing resemblance to a MODERN GERMAN AIR FORCE jacket but nothing that resembled any uniforms of the nazi era, where in the whole scenario were the swastikas ? there were NONE, where were any "heil hitler" or any "sieg heil" or anything at all that resembled Nazi Germany, the striped uniforms were horizontal whereas concentration camp ones were VERTICAL, checking for lice is standard procedure in prisoner/guard, Saddam Hussein was checked for lice by the Americans when he was arrested but hey don't let little things like that affect your flawed argument . I am sure with £300m in the bank that Max would easily be able to afford the same place as Prince Harry got his nazi uniform from :P

 

In that week opinion polls on numerous Internet News & Motor Racing sites showing an 80-90% : 10-20% split saying that Max Mosley's behaviour was disgusting and that he should resign as the public face of Formula One. Amid reports of dismay among F1 teams from Germany, where BMW and Mercedes are based, to Japan where Toyota & Honda are based, one senior figure in a European team said: "On the one hand what Max supposedly does in the privacy of a London sex dungeon is his own business. On the other, it is unbelievably damaging for his name of all names to be identified with a fantasy about one of the biggest crimes in human history".

 

It is incredible that someone with such little intelligence managed to land a top role with a European team if this person even exists at all and was not fabricated by the media to give weight to their flawed argument, there was no fantasisising about nazi scenarios, like I said there was no swastikas, no nazi regalia, no hitler references, the uniforms bore no resemblance to auschwitz or dachau or anywhere else, as for this thing about polls on F1 sites that is the most flawed argument ever, polls can be voted on MULTIPLE times, I could easily manipulate a poll that would end up in Yuji Ide being hailed as the best racing driver ever, all i would have to do is post it on a Google or Yahoo newsgroup and get them to multiple vote and suddenly Ide is ranked higher than Senna, polls on F1 sites are as credible as the moon being made of blue cheese, anyone can vote multiple times, totally devalued argument

 

When you also consider that Max Mosley was the son of Oswald Mosley leader of the Fascist Party who very nearly gained power in the UK in the 1930s, who had Nazi Leader Adolf Hitler & Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini attend his wedding, then you can start to understand why Jewish groups, including the Holocaust centre, have called for his resignation in the strongest possible terms.

 

I am a JEW myself and I am intelligent enough to know that the political views of my family have no bearing on me as a person, likewise my political views have changed very much from when I was a kid, Max Mosley was 21 when he was campaigning for his father why should something nearly 50 years ago have any relevance now ? also why has Bernie Ecclestone the JEWISH CEO of Formula 1 come out in support of Max ? why has Jean Todt the JEWISH CEO of Ferrari (his parents were polish and Todt was raised in France come out in support of Mosley ?

 

However on Oct31 2007 he really outraged British F1 fans with his comments "Hamilton is negative for Formula 1". This was met by outrage in many quarters, not least as Lewis Hamilton is the first black F1 driver in its 57 year history. In his debut year he smashed all records for a debutant (he was 66-1 to win the World Title at the start of the season) in the sport winning four races and outperforming his team-mate and then World Champion Fernando Alonso only failing to win the World Title in the final race to Kimi Raikkonnen after leading virtually all year by just 1 point. To many racing pundits Lewis Hamilton was regarded as a breathe of fresh air with good looks and unusually for a Grand Prix driver a personality which brought interest from non-F1 fans into the sport.

 

Do you have a source for this "Hamilton is negative for F1" ? please provide it and if it does exist please explain where it is based on his skin colour, I would be fascinated what bearing it has to be with his skin colour, there has been plenty of dark skinned drivers in F1 over the years, the most recent being Juan Pablo Montoya, Hamilton is the first AFRO CARRIBEAN driver in F1 but he is far from being the first dark skinned / coloured driver in F1

 

 

Also Max Mosley is currently in litigation with the F1 Journalist of the Year 2007 Derek Brundle & The Times newspaper over a view that Martin made regarding his alleged less than consistent treatment of the McLaren F1 team & Renault F1 team with regards the very different outcomes of spy cases of other teams data (McLaren using Ferrari data; Renault using McLaren data) when most neutral Motor Racing experts agreed with Mr Brundle that Renault's offenses were the worse of the two and on a greater scale yet they got off scot free; whilst McLaren got heavily penalised.

 

You are showing great ignorance here about Spygate, in the initial hearing last July McLaren received NO punishment, they were found guilty but were NOT punished, Martin Whitmarsh did give a sworn affadavit that there was nothing else to hide with regards the matter and the FIA told him that if new evidence emerged that they would face severe punishment, but Whitmarsh assured the FIA that that was everything, not long after being NOT punished McLaren admitted that there had been text messages between Alonso, race engineers and Pedro De La Rosa that contained confidential information so McLaren were hauled back infront of the FIA and were punished for LYING, the vote of the sanctions was taken by the WMSC of which Max Mosley only gets a vote on the matter if the results are tied as the chairman gets the casting vote but by an 8-0 majority McLaren were punished for lying and withholding evidence, you can't compare that with Renault who were not sanctioned because they were fully honest with the FIA, McLaren would not have got their penalty of $100m if they had not lied through their teeth under oath at the first hearing, the FIA let McLaren off without penalty first time around so as Renault came 100% clean they were punished the same way as McLaren were first time around

 

So to sum up the situation you have made a very long detailed post full of inaccuracies, conspiracy theories and half truths so I am afraid your dissertation is only worthy of a D

Edited April 26, 200817 yr by Tim Barnes

Exhibit A

 

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61155

 

FIA imposes no penalty on McLaren

 

By Biranit Goren Thursday, July 26th 2007, 13:56 GMT

 

 

The FIA World Motor Sport Council has found McLaren guilty of possession of unauthorised Ferrari documents, but with no evidence that the team had made use of the information, the governing body elected not to punish McLaren for now.

 

The WMSC said, however, that it reserves the right to call McLaren back should it be found that McLaren had used the information, in which case they may be excluded from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 one.

 

"The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code," said verdict said.

 

"However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty.

 

"But if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship."

 

Luigi Macaluso, the Italian representative at the WMSC, told Gazzetta dello Sport after the hearing: "There was no proof McLaren had an advantage. It was a very technical hearing, very professional.

 

"The fact is that there was no obvious proof against McLaren. Ordinary justice will handle the single individuals."

 

McLaren team boss Ron Dennis, who attended the hearing in Paris, told reporters he was "not completely comfortable with the outcome but the punishment fits the crime".

 

Unrelated to the McLaren decision, the FIA also plans to hold a hearing for Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney and McLaren's suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan, to allow them to defend their behaviour in the spy affair.

 

"The WMSC will also invite Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan to show reason why they should not be banned from international motor sport for a lengthy period and the WMSC has delegated authority to deal with this matter to the legal department of the FIA," the verdict added.

 

 

 

 

 

Exhibit B

 

 

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61162

 

 

McLaren say decision 'balanced and fair'

 

By Pablo Elizalde Thursday, July 26th 2007, 17:37 GMT

 

 

The McLaren-Mercedes team have said the FIA decision to not punish them was "very balanced and fair".

 

The FIA Motor Sport Council found McLaren guilty of being in possession of unauthorised documents belonging to rivals Ferrari, but without proof that the data was used, the sport's governing body decided there was no reason to penalize the British team.

 

The decision angered Ferrari, who said it was setting a dangerous predecent, but McLaren found it fair.

 

"Following an appearance by McLaren today at the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris, a unanimous decision has been taken by the FIA which in McLaren's opinion is very balanced and fair," said the team in a statement.

 

"McLaren accepts the that the FIA World Motor Sport Council had no alternative other than to find that there was a purely technical breach by reason of the possession of certain information by one individual at his home, without McLaren's knowledge or authority.

 

"McLaren is delighted that the World Motor Sport Council determined that this information was not used and accordingly imposed no sanction whatsoever on the team. McLaren looks forward to continuing its fight in what is the most exciting Drivers' and Constructors' World Championship in many years."

 

McLaren team boss Ron Dennis was happy to leave the matter behind, and he has vowed to focus on winning this year's titles.

 

"There is no doubt that the past 24 days have been challenging and the tremendous support we have received from our sponsor partners and the public has been much appreciated," said Dennis.

 

"Moving forward McLaren wants to re-affirm our long-standing commitment to honesty and integrity and re-state that we believe we have acted correctly throughout.

 

"Now, we have Formula One World Championships to win. As a result we intend to move on, so as to maintain the focus and commitment required to do exactly that."

 

The news was also welcome by McLaren's drivers Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton.

 

"Having only been part of McLaren for a few months I know how important today's decision will be for everybody," said Alonso. "I am looking forward to an exciting second half of the season and to continue our battle for both World Championships."

 

Hamilton added: "Whilst it's only my first season in Formula One with the team, I already know and appreciate the commitment and dedication of the people there. As a result I am pleased with today's decision and can't wait for the rest of the season."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exhibit C

 

 

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62097

 

 

Letter confirms drivers had new evidence

 

By Jonathan Noble and Steve Cooper Friday, September 7th 2007, 09:19 GMT

 

 

FIA president Max Mosley confirmed in a letter to Formula One teams last week that the new evidence that has led to a fresh hearing over the Ferrari spy saga did come from McLaren's drivers, autosport.com can reveal.

 

Speculation at Monza ahead of this weekend's Italian Grand Prix pointed towards an email exchange between Fernando Alonso and McLaren tester Pedro de la Rosa that took place shortly after the start of the season.

 

Sources have revealed that in the emails, de la Rosa makes reference to Ferrari set-up secrets that he had obtained from McLaren's suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan.

 

It is unclear at this stage who tipped off the FIA about the existence of the email exchange.

 

McLaren and the FIA have not commented on the nature of the new evidence, but autosport.com can confirm that all F1 teams were informed last week that McLaren drivers had been in possession of 'written evidence relevant to this investigation.'

 

Mosley wrote to all 11 teams last Friday making it clear that it was their duty to provide any evidence relating to the spy affair.

 

Similar letters were also sent to Alonso, de la Rosa and Lewis Hamilton, asking them to provide any evidence they had in exchange for an 'amnesty' over any possible sanctions.

 

Although the FIA has not publicly confirmed or denied that the letter was sent to the teams, autosport.com has obtained a copy from an unidentified source detailing the nature of its latest investigation.

 

In it, Mosley says the FIA was made aware of: "an allegation that one or more McLaren drivers may be in possession, or that such drivers have recently been in possession, of written evidence relevant to this investigation."

 

Mosley says it is the FIA's duty to find out if this allegation is true and therefore requires the cooperation of all teams involved to provide documents, and then he drops a big hint about email exchanges.

 

The letter adds: "In particular (though without limiting the generality of this request) the FIA wishes to receive copies of any electronic communications (howsoever conveyed or stored) which may be relevant to this case and which make reference to Ferrari, Nigel Stepney or any technical or other information coming from, or connected with, either Ferrari or Mr Stepney."

 

It is understood that Alonso and de la Rosa subsequently provided the information about their email exchange at the start of this week, which prompted the FIA to recall the World Motor Sport Council for a hearing on September 13.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 200817 yr by Tim Barnes

Exhibit D

 

Juan Pablo Montoya

 

http://www.autoblog.com/media/2006/07/jpm.jpg

 

Lewis Hamilton

 

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00082/Lewis_Hamilton_has_p_82959t.jpg

 

 

Spot the difference ;)

 

Weren't nazis only in favour of pure whites with blonde hair and blue eyes ? in that case if Mosley is a nazi then he would be discriminatory against Montoya who is as dark skinned as Hamilton but hey where is any quotes that Montoya is bad for F1 ? or does Mosley like dark skinned people but just not afro carribeans ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exhibit E

 

 

Saddam Hussein being checked for lice

 

 

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/14/bn.04.html

 

 

COLLINS: Obviously a very emotional Paul Bremer in making that announcement. Too, emotional were the people in the news conference, pointedly the Iraqi journalists. You saw them jump to their feet and celebrate. Many of them saying, "Death to Saddam."

 

That celebration has been continuing in different parts of Iraq. Also been watching that today.

 

Want to show you a few pictures we have been looking at where Saddam Hussein was captured. It was here in this mud hole. They are calling it a spider hole, in fact. It was camouflaged with mud and dirt. You can see on the very, very right-hand side of your screen there an air vent and a fan that was built in to that mud hut so that Saddam Hussein could breathe.

 

Not sure how long he was there. But again, found in Tikrit in his hometown. Many people saying not too surprising that he was found there because of how well he could blend in, so to speak, with the people who have been most loyal to him.

 

These are the pictures of the medical exam that took place quite immediately after his capture. We are told medical examiners here looking for lice, using a tongue depressor, looking inside his mouth trying to gauge the condition of him, which we learned is quite good at this time. Once again, General Ricardo Sanchez saying tired, but yet a man resigned to his fate. Again, those are the pictures from the news conference and the Iraqi journalists standing on

 

 

 

 

Are you suggesting then that the Americans were re-enacting a nazi scenario with the inspection of Saddam Hussein for lice ?

Edited April 26, 200817 yr by Tim Barnes

Well you had no such qualms when the News of the World & it's daily equivalent The Sun exposed Heather Mills as a "Hooker, Liar, Porn Star, Fantasist, Trouble Maker, Shoplifter"!

 

but i didnt get my info from them papers, i saw her blustering on tv and read her like a book!!!

Fascinating post of which you clearly put a lot of time and effort into, its a shame that there are so many inaccuracies that totally destroy its credibility, I don't know how to use multi quote so I will bold my writing

 

"Max Mosley was exposed by the News of The World in participating in a sadomasochistic sex session with five call girls in an orgy with five prostitutes dressed in Nazi-style uniforms and striped pyjama suits evoking the victims of the Holocaust was unveiled across five pages of Britain's biggest-selling newspaper including being subjected to a search for lice by a jack-booted vice girl asking if he had been "keeping clean at the other facility"

 

Totally wrong, this was standard BDSM Prisoner/Guard fare, no connection at all with Nazi Germany, one of the uniforms bore a passing resemblance to a MODERN GERMAN AIR FORCE jacket but nothing that resembled any uniforms of the nazi era, where in the whole scenario were the swastikas ? there were NONE, where were any "heil hitler" or any "sieg heil" or anything at all that resembled Nazi Germany, the striped uniforms were horizontal whereas concentration camp ones were VERTICAL, checking for lice is standard procedure in prisoner/guard, Saddam Hussein was checked for lice by the Americans when he was arrested but hey don't let little things like that affect your flawed argument . I am sure with £300m in the bank that Max would easily be able to afford the same place as Prince Harry got his nazi uniform from :P

 

In that week opinion polls on numerous Internet News & Motor Racing sites showing an 80-90% : 10-20% split saying that Max Mosley's behaviour was disgusting and that he should resign as the public face of Formula One. Amid reports of dismay among F1 teams from Germany, where BMW and Mercedes are based, to Japan where Toyota & Honda are based, one senior figure in a European team said: "On the one hand what Max supposedly does in the privacy of a London sex dungeon is his own business. On the other, it is unbelievably damaging for his name of all names to be identified with a fantasy about one of the biggest crimes in human history".

 

It is incredible that someone with such little intelligence managed to land a top role with a European team if this person even exists at all and was not fabricated by the media to give weight to their flawed argument, there was no fantasisising about nazi scenarios, like I said there was no swastikas, no nazi regalia, no hitler references, the uniforms bore no resemblance to auschwitz or dachau or anywhere else, as for this thing about polls on F1 sites that is the most flawed argument ever, polls can be voted on MULTIPLE times, I could easily manipulate a poll that would end up in Yuji Ide being hailed as the best racing driver ever, all i would have to do is post it on a Google or Yahoo newsgroup and get them to multiple vote and suddenly Ide is ranked higher than Senna, polls on F1 sites are as credible as the moon being made of blue cheese, anyone can vote multiple times, totally devalued argument

 

When you also consider that Max Mosley was the son of Oswald Mosley leader of the Fascist Party who very nearly gained power in the UK in the 1930s, who had Nazi Leader Adolf Hitler & Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini attend his wedding, then you can start to understand why Jewish groups, including the Holocaust centre, have called for his resignation in the strongest possible terms.

 

I am a JEW myself and I am intelligent enough to know that the political views of my family have no bearing on me as a person, likewise my political views have changed very much from when I was a kid, Max Mosley was 21 when he was campaigning for his father why should something nearly 50 years ago have any relevance now ? also why has Bernie Ecclestone the JEWISH CEO of Formula 1 come out in support of Max ? why has Jean Todt the JEWISH CEO of Ferrari (his parents were polish and Todt was raised in France come out in support of Mosley ?

 

However on Oct31 2007 he really outraged British F1 fans with his comments "Hamilton is negative for Formula 1". This was met by outrage in many quarters, not least as Lewis Hamilton is the first black F1 driver in its 57 year history. In his debut year he smashed all records for a debutant (he was 66-1 to win the World Title at the start of the season) in the sport winning four races and outperforming his team-mate and then World Champion Fernando Alonso only failing to win the World Title in the final race to Kimi Raikkonnen after leading virtually all year by just 1 point. To many racing pundits Lewis Hamilton was regarded as a breathe of fresh air with good looks and unusually for a Grand Prix driver a personality which brought interest from non-F1 fans into the sport.

 

Do you have a source for this "Hamilton is negative for F1" ? please provide it and if it does exist please explain where it is based on his skin colour, I would be fascinated what bearing it has to be with his skin colour, there has been plenty of dark skinned drivers in F1 over the years, the most recent being Juan Pablo Montoya, Hamilton is the first AFRO CARRIBEAN driver in F1 but he is far from being the first dark skinned / coloured driver in F1

Also Max Mosley is currently in litigation with the F1 Journalist of the Year 2007 Derek Brundle & The Times newspaper over a view that Martin made regarding his alleged less than consistent treatment of the McLaren F1 team & Renault F1 team with regards the very different outcomes of spy cases of other teams data (McLaren using Ferrari data; Renault using McLaren data) when most neutral Motor Racing experts agreed with Mr Brundle that Renault's offenses were the worse of the two and on a greater scale yet they got off scot free; whilst McLaren got heavily penalised.

 

You are showing great ignorance here about Spygate, in the initial hearing last July McLaren received NO punishment, they were found guilty but were NOT punished, Martin Whitmarsh did give a sworn affadavit that there was nothing else to hide with regards the matter and the FIA told him that if new evidence emerged that they would face severe punishment, but Whitmarsh assured the FIA that that was everything, not long after being NOT punished McLaren admitted that there had been text messages between Alonso, race engineers and Pedro De La Rosa that contained confidential information so McLaren were hauled back infront of the FIA and were punished for LYING, the vote of the sanctions was taken by the WMSC of which Max Mosley only gets a vote on the matter if the results are tied as the chairman gets the casting vote but by an 8-0 majority McLaren were punished for lying and withholding evidence, you can't compare that with Renault who were not sanctioned because they were fully honest with the FIA, McLaren would not have got their penalty of $100m if they had not lied through their teeth under oath at the first hearing, the FIA let McLaren off without penalty first time around so as Renault came 100% clean they were punished the same way as McLaren were first time around

 

So to sum up the situation you have made a very long detailed post full of inaccuracies, conspiracy theories and half truths so I am afraid your dissertation is only worthy of a D

 

Congratulations on positing a serious contender for the biggest load of bull$h!t on this site so far.

 

On numerous news sites up & down the web, and discussed this morning (again) on Radio 5 Live:

 

Ecclestone calls for Mosley to quit

Last updated at 20:21pm on 26th April 2008

Daily Mail.co.uk

 

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone yesterday demanded the resignation of shamed FIA president Max Mosley, his friend and close associate for almost 40 years.

At a heated meeting of Formula One's team principals ahead of this afternoon's Spanish Grand Prix, Ecclestone increased the pressure on Mosley as he sought to find unanimous support to drive him out of office.

 

Seven teams — McLaren, Renault, Honda, BMW, Red Bull, Force India and Toyota — agreed to join forces against Mosley. But Ferrari, Williams and Toro Rosso created a rebel faction.

 

That leaves the FIA chief clinging to power after he was revealed to have taken part in a sado-masochistic orgy involving five prostitutes last month.

 

The rebellion by the trio of team bosses thwarted Ecclestone's attempt to manipulate events ahead on extraordinary meeting of FIA's general assembly in Paris on June 3, when Mosley's position is due to be discussed.

 

Ecclestone had been willing to endorse the call for Mosley's resignation had the teams provided a united front.

 

He is acutely aware that the scandal enveloping Mosley could imperil the business empire he has built over the last quarter of a century. Formula One's 77- year-old impresario had proposed a joint letter to the FIA, the sport's governing body, inviting Mosley to resign.

 

Ecclestone was prepared to put his signature to a document that would have sounded the death knell for Mosley's career.

 

But the meeting — described by one leading Formula One figure as 'emotive' — failed to unite the F1 moguls.

 

While Ferrari, aligned historically to Mosley who has held the unpaid presidential office for 17 years, presented predictable dissent, the unwillingness of the Williams team to fall in line angered Ecclestone.

 

Sir Frank Williams was represented at the meeting in the Toyota motor-home by his company's chief executive, Adam Parr. A rival team principal said: 'At one point, Bernie raged at Parr and called him an amateur.'

 

Even though Ecclestone failed to win total support, the majority of the teams declared Mosley's position untenable.

 

Mosley, the son of Sir Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Union of Fascists in the years leading up to the Second World War, denies that the activities he participated in at an apartment in Chelsea included references to the Nazis.

 

He has requested the extraordinary meeting of the FIA general assembly in the hope of winning a vote of confidence in a secret ballot. But voices are being raised against him from around the world.

 

Israel's government withdrew an invitation to Mosley after he had attended a round of the world rally championship in Jordan.

 

Other bodies from the United States, South Africa, Germany and Holland have already demanded his resignation, while sources in India indicate that he is unlikely to win support from the sub-Continent.

 

Yesterday's events leave Mosley in no doubt that he is also now publicly opposed by the most powerful man in the sport.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Wednesday, 31 October 2007, 08:19 GMT

Hamilton 'may be negative for F1'

BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/7070564.stm

Motorsport boss Max Mosley has said Lewis Hamilton could have a negative effect on Formula One if he is as successful next year as he was in 2007.

 

"If he does the same thing next season as he's done this season, it will certainly have a big effect," he said.

 

"It will start to be negative because we'll get the Schumacher effect where people start writing to me saying can't you do something to slow him down."

 

Mosley added that Hamilton's role in revitalising F1 had been exaggerated.

 

"He has certainly helped enormously in the UK," said Mosley, the president of governing body the FIA, in an interview with the BBC's Hardtalk programme.

 

"He's also got a lot of interest worldwide because he's come manifestly not from a rich background. He's just made it.

 

"There is always somebody new. If it wasn't him it would be either [Nico] Rosberg or [Robert] Kubica or one of the other new stars, a [sebastian] Vettel, would suddenly be the big one.

 

"So I think there is a tendency to exaggerate the importance of Lewis Hamilton."

 

Mosley added that it was "very unlikely" that Hamilton would be installed as champion following a hearing next month into the results of the season-closing Brazilian Grand Prix.

 

McLaren have appealed against the decision not to punish the Williams and BMW Sauber teams for having fuel that was too cold.

 

If McLaren are successful in having their three points-scoring drivers excluded, Hamilton could be moved up in the results to fourth, giving him enough points to displace Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen as world champion.

 

But Mosley said: "It could happen, absolutely, because this will go to a court of appeal.

 

"It consists of very senior lawyers who are not connected with any of the countries involved in the events, so not Britain, not Italy and so on. It's an independent court. It can decide.

 

"That said, it's very unlikely, because even if they excluded those cars they are not obliged to reclassify Hamilton. There's absolutely no need, if they don't wish to, to change the position that Hamilton was in."

 

Mosley described the 2007 season as "very positive, on the whole", despite the controversies that plagued the sport, because "although the behind-the-scenes stuff was annoying for us and the people concerned, for the public it really adds to the general interest".

 

One of those controversies was the "spy-gate" saga, when Hamilton's McLaren team were fined $100m (£49.2m) and thrown out of the constructors' championship after being found guilty of possessing confidential Ferrari technical information.

 

Mosley said McLaren's 2008 car would be closely scrutinised by the FIA to ensure the team had not included any Ferrari ideas on it.

 

"That [Ferrari data] was in the hands of the chief designer at precisely the moment he was designing the 2008 McLaren," Mosley said.

 

"The difficulty we have is that you're not going to find on the McLaren a part that was designed by Ferrari.

 

"What you may find are ideas and at this level of technology at this level of motorsport, if the idea is given to the chief designer he will make a component utilising that idea which bears no relation at all to the component perhaps being used by the other car.

 

"So we will be looking for the ideas. The investigation will be thorough, it will use outside experts and we will do everything we possibly can to make sure that either of the McLarens has no element of Ferrari intellectual property in it or if it does we will then have to consider taking some sort of action.

 

"That would not necessarily be preventing them from running. It would be more likely that they would be given a negative point allocation.

 

"Finding something will not be easy. On the other hand, there are sources we are going to deploy who will give us as good a chance as its possible to have to find it."

 

Asked if he thought Hamilton had known more about the Ferrari information being in McLaren's possession than has come out in public, Mosley said: "He's not a known quantity to me.

 

"It would be surprising if he didn't know something of what was going on, but I've got absolutely no evidence that he had. On that basis it would be wrong of me to suggest that he had."

 

Mosley's remarks are the latest in a series of provocative comments about McLaren this season.

 

The FIA president is known to have a difficult relationship with McLaren boss Ron Dennis, dating back more than 20 years.

 

A McLaren spokeswoman said the team were reviewing the entire content of the interview before deciding whether to comment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for why Max Mosley has to go, it is clear he is guilty of being a hypocrite with double standards:

 

The Sunday Times

December 9, 2007

How can Formula One justify blatant double standards?

The FIA’s decision not to punish Renault for ‘spying’ makes no sense

Martin Brundle

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/for...icle3021312.ece

AS A RESULT of my Sunday Times column we have received a French writ from Max Mosley and the FIA with regard to comments I made in September about the so-called Ferrari and McLaren spy scandal and the ensuing $100m fine for McLaren. We even appeared on the impressively named World Motor Sport Council’s agenda approving the use of the FIA’s money to pursue us. I had previously debated the energetic manner in which Mosley was apparently pursuing McLaren.

 

As a former Formula One driver, I have earnt the right to have an opinion about the sport, and probably know as much about it as anybody else. I have attended approaching 400 grands prix, 158 as a driver. I have spilt blood, broken bones, shed tears, generated tanker loads of sweat, tasted the champagne glories and plumbed the depths of misery. I have never been more passionate about F1 and will always share my opinions in an honest and open way, knowing readers will make up their own minds.

 

The timing of the writ is significant, in my view, given the FIA’s decision to find Renault guilty of having significant McLaren designs and information within their systems, but not administering any penalty. It is a warning sign to other journalists and publications to choose their words carefully over that decision. I’m tired of what I perceive as the “spin” and tactics of the FIA press office, as are many other journalists. I expect my accreditation pass for next year will be hindered in some way to make my coverage of F1 more difficult and to punish me. Or they will write to ITV again to say that my commentary is not up to standard despite my unprecedented six Royal Television Society Awards for sports broadcasting. So be it.

 

This past couple of weeks I have attended many functions where I have met high-level F1 people, among many others. The discussion always moves to “how will the FIA get themselves out of this corner by not punishing Renault despite the outcome of the McLaren case”. That was the perception of many, and remains the billion-dollar question.

 

I have no issue with Renault or McLaren, they are both former teams of mine and I remain good friends with many in the teams and admire all they have achieved. But very few drivers or key team personnel in F1 can look you in the eye and honestly say they have never witnessed or been part of a transfer of information between teams. The purpose of poaching other team players is to fast-track the development and performance of the car. It’s a question of where the line is drawn about transfer of knowledge and intellectual property.

 

The immensely successful former F1 designer Gordon Murray made a good point when he said that years ago it would have taken several vans to carry the paper-based designs from one team to another. With the digital age and the massively increased complexity of today’s cars, along with the pressure created by the billions of dollars of funding from the manufacturers and sponsors, the stakes have changed and the line needs clarifying. Of course the FIA and any legal system engaged in the process are right to investigate this.

 

Many drivers and team bosses will be mighty relieved they haven’t been dragged into this. The guillotine fell as McLaren went under it and Renault have passed unscathed. It is enlightening to read the transcripts from the separate cases. The McLaren judgment is about negativity and suspicion of possible use of Ferrari information, but no real show-stopper I could see. Even now the decision to punish or exclude McLaren for 2008 has been deferred.

 

The Renault decision is one of an understanding and supportive nature and one only of occasional “strong disapproval” despite clear and confirmed evidence that information was loaded on to their mainframe IT system, including drawings of McLaren’s shock absorber, fuel system, mass damper and seamless shift transmission. Some drawings were printed off and idly laid on a key desk before being handed back after a disinterested glance, said the verdict. I laughed out loud on that one. And just as McLaren protested Ferrari’s floor back at the Australian Grand Prix, Renault used information taken from a McLaren “J-Damper” drawing to seek rule clarification with the FIA. It was deemed that, as with McLaren, it could not be proven Renault benefited from it. Surprisingly, although the case is left open if further information surfaces, unlike McLaren, the Renault team will not be investigated with regard to their 2008 car. Why would that be? I accept there was an element of “live” transfer of unpublished information over three months between Stepney of Ferrari and Coughlan of McLaren, but it seems the actual proof of information within the Renault team was significantly more damning.

 

This issue badly needs clearing up, but the Renault verdict muddies the water. All teams now know the ground rules have changed a lot. To an extent Ferrari, McLaren and Renault are all culpable for being careless with their systems and personnel with regard to the security and transfer in and out of their critical designs and operating procedures. How that many people and that much information can be defined and controlled is another matter. It seems like a good memory might be a strong quality for future designers.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And this is the excellent article (which subsequently won Martin Brundle a Sports Writer's Guild Award at the end of 2007) for which Max Mosley & the FIA are suing him & the Sunday Times for:

 

The Sunday Times

September 9, 2007

Witch-hunt threatens to spoil world title race

The sport’s focus is going to be on a courtroom in Paris that no Formula One fan cares about

Martin Brundle

(This article is subject to a legal complaint)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/for...icle2414580.ece

 

MONZA is one of the greatest theatres of motorsport, an emotive, historic parkland venue built in 1922. The trees shade the track. With five races remaining and four drivers in the hunt for the title, this is the perfect place to be. Or it was until they threw a bucket of cold water over it.

 

On the eve of the race weekend, at Ferrari’s home track, the governing body, the FIA, reopened the McLaren/Ferrari espionage case, citing new evidence. Having reserved the right to throw McLaren out of the 2007 and 2008 championships if information came to light that the technical blueprint of the Ferrari car had spread beyond a rogue McLaren employee and into the organisation, the hearing will be held on Thursday, just before next weekend’s Belgian Grand Prix.

 

For me this has all the feel of a witch-hunt, driven by the very people who have a primary responsibility to the sport. At a time when we should be excitedly micro-analysing the performance of the contenders, we’re caught up in this story. Many worldly and wise friends in the paddock yesterday, such as Sir Jackie Stewart and Murray Walker, expressed sadness at events.

 

Writs fly at Monza

 

Fernando Alonso and tester Pedro de la Rosa have been thrust to the front of the story after the McLaren drivers, including Lewis Hamilton, were invited to tell what they knew. They are being positioned as whistleblowers. Apparently this new “information”, shared in an e-mail in March between the Spaniards, is not exactly a smoking gun.

 

But it is a fact that the information has gone further into the organisation than McLaren claimed in the original hearing. In all the leaked letters and positioning there is the feeling of a plan, an end game – and it’s difficult not to see that through the prism of past controversies, often at around this time of year, involving Ferrari’s fight for the world championship. Think back to Alonso’s incorrect grid penalty here last year in the midst of his title fight with Ferrari. Think back to three years ago when the Michelin tyres used by Ferrari’s rivals were suddenly declared too wide, having been the same size for the previous three years.

 

If McLaren have broken the rules, they should be punished. But if the FIA finds them guilty and bars them from this year’s championship and probably the next, it will have a profound effect on the sport. Manufacturers and sponsors will all react to the damaged credibility.

 

We have two magnificent grands prix coming up in the next week, yet the sport’s focus is going to be on a courtroom in Paris that not one fan cares about or really understands. Inside the paddock we can’t fathom how, previously, two Toyota F1 employees can be handed prison sentences for industrial espionage using Ferrari software, yet the FIA was not interested in getting involved, and how Colin Kolles from Spyker could walk down the pit lane with a drawing from rival Toro Rosso presented as evidence of cloned cars, yet the FIA took no action.

 

So what is the driving force here? Does it involve the threatened breakaway GPMA series that Ron Dennis was involved in? Did Dennis try to torpedo key people out of their jobs? Is the FIA looking for McLaren heads to roll? I think McLaren are in for major pain next Thursday even though the root cause of this whole issue is a disaffected Ferrari man.

 

We can hope that Bernie Ecclestone will play his hand and say, “You are not interrupting the drivers’ championship,” but even he doesn’t always win. He tried hard to sort out the tyre fiasco at Indiana-polis in 2005 but was unable to.

 

If the FIA takes further constructors’ points from McLaren, it will cost the team tens of millions of pounds and generate potential difficulties with sponsor and driver contracts, but at least it will not wreck the future of Formula One. If it bars them from the remaining races in this year’s championship and beyond, it will be like hitting the self-destruct button.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm not even going to attempt to further explain the Nazi fetish that Max clearly has, but his catalogue of comments that he has made throughout his life & the way he disowned his brother who had the audacity to apologise for his father's controversial fascist views in an autobiography speaks volumes.

 

I think it is worth sitting back & waiting to see what happens in his litigation case against the News of the World. Some how I think he is as likely to come away with a full unreserved apology & £500,000 as Lewis Hamilton has of being crowned F1 Champion in 2008 in a season that is already becoming a Ferrari procession.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for Prince Harry wearing the Nazi uniform, of course it was crass, but the context of that hooray henry party was to wear ridiculous/outrageous fancy dress, so it fitted the bill perfectly.

 

It would be like complaining about Mel Brooks film/musical "The Producers"; or the musical/film "Cabaret" :lol:

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Getting back to the Spygate scandal & the inconsistent way that McLaren & Renault were dealt with and punished, then I recommend you go and buy the latest book by veteran F1 (since the 1950s) writer & Radio 5 Live expert Maurice Hamilton's Chequered Conflict - The Inside Story of Two Explosive World Championships

 

Review:

Book of the week: Chequered Conflict- The Inside Story of Two Explosive World Championships, by Maurice Hamilton (Simon & Schuster £17.99)

Independent.co.uk

David Tremayne

Monday, 10 March 2008

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-r...799-793616.html

*****

There are already signs, as the new Formula One season is upon us, that the scandal surrounding the McLaren team has yet to be buried by all the parties concerned, even though two of the three are supposed to be keen to draw a line beneath events that so sullied the 2007 World Championship struggle.

 

Author Maurice Hamilton has chosen to chronicle not just 2007 but also another gripping season, 1986, in which the title also went down to the wire with three drivers in play. He was on the scene for every race in each of them, and for all of those in between, so is perfectly placed not just to tell the two very different stories but also to contrast them, and therein lies the hook in this account.

 

In 1986 there was a Brit, Nigel Mansell, fighting a Frenchman, Alain Prost, and a Brazilian, Nelson Piquet. Mansell and Piquet were team-mates who hated one another, while Prost was the outsider.

 

Fast forward to 2007, when another Brit, Lewis Hamilton, went up against his team-mate, the Spaniard Fernando Alonso, who was reigning champion, with Kimi Raikkonen as the outsider. There were tensions between Hamilton and Alonso too and, just as in 1986, the outsider came through to win.

 

But there the similarities end, for no season in Formula One history has been so acrimonious, nor so riddled with politics. Even the governing body, the FIA, had to answer allegations against its own conduct.

 

Primarily, this is the story of a proud man, Ron Dennis of McLaren, who was to discover in the cruellest terms that he knew less than he thought about what was happening within his team as he was betrayed by his chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who received stolen Ferrari data from his friend Nigel Stepney.

 

It is a parable of Formula One, primarily of its greed and self-interest. As Hamilton rightly concludes, what happened to McLaren in 2007 was motor racing's equivalent of a tsunami. When the waters receded, the sport's sense of fair play and honour had been swept out to sea.

 

There have, inevitably, been further developments since Hamilton's book was finished, but this remains a beautifully researched account of what happened.

 

But be warned: it is an unedifying tale that will change your view of a once-great sport.

 

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This is my last word on this subject, as I have no interest in replying to any of your posts defending the indefensible that is Max Mosley!

 

 

I will reply properly tonight as have a very busy day today, failing that will reply properly tomorrow but the fact of the matter remains that the evidence of any nazi connection is very slight at best (confirmed by a High Court Judge when Max applied for an injunction on the NOTW), this whole "scandal" is based on the nazi part of things when that whole nazi argument is totally discredited so nothing has changed for me that this is a private matter that has nothing to do with Max's job, someone's sex life should not have anything to do with their job unless they are doing something illegal and BDSM while not to everyone's taste is still a legal activity partaken in by around 10% of the adult population of the UK so no he should not resign over something that has nothing to do with his job

 

There would be no fuss whatsoever about this were it not for the paranoid nazi rubbish peddled by the NOTW

 

My support for Ferrari has nothing to do with this, as a Ferrari fan I should love the idea of Jean Todt taking over as President of the FIA but I am siding with Max over this out of the principle that totally legal consentual sexual activity between adults should not have anything to do with someone's job

Congratulations on positing a serious contender for the biggest load of bull$h!t on this site so far.

 

On numerous news sites up & down the web, and discussed this morning (again) on Radio 5 Live:

 

Ecclestone calls for Mosley to quit

Last updated at 20:21pm on 26th April 2008

Daily Mail.co.uk

 

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone yesterday demanded the resignation of shamed FIA president Max Mosley, his friend and close associate for almost 40 years.

At a heated meeting of Formula One's team principals ahead of this afternoon's Spanish Grand Prix, Ecclestone increased the pressure on Mosley as he sought to find unanimous support to drive him out of office.

 

Seven teams — McLaren, Renault, Honda, BMW, Red Bull, Force India and Toyota — agreed to join forces against Mosley. But Ferrari, Williams and Toro Rosso created a rebel faction.

 

That leaves the FIA chief clinging to power after he was revealed to have taken part in a sado-masochistic orgy involving five prostitutes last month.

 

The rebellion by the trio of team bosses thwarted Ecclestone's attempt to manipulate events ahead on extraordinary meeting of FIA's general assembly in Paris on June 3, when Mosley's position is due to be discussed.

 

Ecclestone had been willing to endorse the call for Mosley's resignation had the teams provided a united front.

 

He is acutely aware that the scandal enveloping Mosley could imperil the business empire he has built over the last quarter of a century. Formula One's 77- year-old impresario had proposed a joint letter to the FIA, the sport's governing body, inviting Mosley to resign.

 

Ecclestone was prepared to put his signature to a document that would have sounded the death knell for Mosley's career.

 

But the meeting — described by one leading Formula One figure as 'emotive' — failed to unite the F1 moguls.

 

While Ferrari, aligned historically to Mosley who has held the unpaid presidential office for 17 years, presented predictable dissent, the unwillingness of the Williams team to fall in line angered Ecclestone.

 

Sir Frank Williams was represented at the meeting in the Toyota motor-home by his company's chief executive, Adam Parr. A rival team principal said: 'At one point, Bernie raged at Parr and called him an amateur.'

 

Even though Ecclestone failed to win total support, the majority of the teams declared Mosley's position untenable.

 

Mosley, the son of Sir Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Union of Fascists in the years leading up to the Second World War, denies that the activities he participated in at an apartment in Chelsea included references to the Nazis.

 

He has requested the extraordinary meeting of the FIA general assembly in the hope of winning a vote of confidence in a secret ballot. But voices are being raised against him from around the world.

 

Israel's government withdrew an invitation to Mosley after he had attended a round of the world rally championship in Jordan.

 

Other bodies from the United States, South Africa, Germany and Holland have already demanded his resignation, while sources in India indicate that he is unlikely to win support from the sub-Continent.

 

Yesterday's events leave Mosley in no doubt that he is also now publicly opposed by the most powerful man in the sport.

 

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Wednesday, 31 October 2007, 08:19 GMT

Hamilton 'may be negative for F1'

BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/7070564.stm

Motorsport boss Max Mosley has said Lewis Hamilton could have a negative effect on Formula One if he is as successful next year as he was in 2007.

 

"If he does the same thing next season as he's done this season, it will certainly have a big effect," he said.

 

"It will start to be negative because we'll get the Schumacher effect where people start writing to me saying can't you do something to slow him down."

 

Mosley added that Hamilton's role in revitalising F1 had been exaggerated.

 

"He has certainly helped enormously in the UK," said Mosley, the president of governing body the FIA, in an interview with the BBC's Hardtalk programme.

 

"He's also got a lot of interest worldwide because he's come manifestly not from a rich background. He's just made it.

 

"There is always somebody new. If it wasn't him it would be either [Nico] Rosberg or [Robert] Kubica or one of the other new stars, a [sebastian] Vettel, would suddenly be the big one.

 

"So I think there is a tendency to exaggerate the importance of Lewis Hamilton."

 

Mosley added that it was "very unlikely" that Hamilton would be installed as champion following a hearing next month into the results of the season-closing Brazilian Grand Prix.

 

McLaren have appealed against the decision not to punish the Williams and BMW Sauber teams for having fuel that was too cold.

 

If McLaren are successful in having their three points-scoring drivers excluded, Hamilton could be moved up in the results to fourth, giving him enough points to displace Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen as world champion.

 

But Mosley said: "It could happen, absolutely, because this will go to a court of appeal.

 

"It consists of very senior lawyers who are not connected with any of the countries involved in the events, so not Britain, not Italy and so on. It's an independent court. It can decide.

 

"That said, it's very unlikely, because even if they excluded those cars they are not obliged to reclassify Hamilton. There's absolutely no need, if they don't wish to, to change the position that Hamilton was in."

 

Mosley described the 2007 season as "very positive, on the whole", despite the controversies that plagued the sport, because "although the behind-the-scenes stuff was annoying for us and the people concerned, for the public it really adds to the general interest".

 

One of those controversies was the "spy-gate" saga, when Hamilton's McLaren team were fined $100m (£49.2m) and thrown out of the constructors' championship after being found guilty of possessing confidential Ferrari technical information.

 

Mosley said McLaren's 2008 car would be closely scrutinised by the FIA to ensure the team had not included any Ferrari ideas on it.

 

"That [Ferrari data] was in the hands of the chief designer at precisely the moment he was designing the 2008 McLaren," Mosley said.

 

"The difficulty we have is that you're not going to find on the McLaren a part that was designed by Ferrari.

 

"What you may find are ideas and at this level of technology at this level of motorsport, if the idea is given to the chief designer he will make a component utilising that idea which bears no relation at all to the component perhaps being used by the other car.

 

"So we will be looking for the ideas. The investigation will be thorough, it will use outside experts and we will do everything we possibly can to make sure that either of the McLarens has no element of Ferrari intellectual property in it or if it does we will then have to consider taking some sort of action.

 

"That would not necessarily be preventing them from running. It would be more likely that they would be given a negative point allocation.

 

"Finding something will not be easy. On the other hand, there are sources we are going to deploy who will give us as good a chance as its possible to have to find it."

 

Asked if he thought Hamilton had known more about the Ferrari information being in McLaren's possession than has come out in public, Mosley said: "He's not a known quantity to me.

 

"It would be surprising if he didn't know something of what was going on, but I've got absolutely no evidence that he had. On that basis it would be wrong of me to suggest that he had."

 

Mosley's remarks are the latest in a series of provocative comments about McLaren this season.

 

The FIA president is known to have a difficult relationship with McLaren boss Ron Dennis, dating back more than 20 years.

 

A McLaren spokeswoman said the team were reviewing the entire content of the interview before deciding whether to comment.

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As for why Max Mosley has to go, it is clear he is guilty of being a hypocrite with double standards:

 

The Sunday Times

December 9, 2007

How can Formula One justify blatant double standards?

The FIA’s decision not to punish Renault for ‘spying’ makes no sense

Martin Brundle

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/for...icle3021312.ece

AS A RESULT of my Sunday Times column we have received a French writ from Max Mosley and the FIA with regard to comments I made in September about the so-called Ferrari and McLaren spy scandal and the ensuing $100m fine for McLaren. We even appeared on the impressively named World Motor Sport Council’s agenda approving the use of the FIA’s money to pursue us. I had previously debated the energetic manner in which Mosley was apparently pursuing McLaren.

 

As a former Formula One driver, I have earnt the right to have an opinion about the sport, and probably know as much about it as anybody else. I have attended approaching 400 grands prix, 158 as a driver. I have spilt blood, broken bones, shed tears, generated tanker loads of sweat, tasted the champagne glories and plumbed the depths of misery. I have never been more passionate about F1 and will always share my opinions in an honest and open way, knowing readers will make up their own minds.

 

The timing of the writ is significant, in my view, given the FIA’s decision to find Renault guilty of having significant McLaren designs and information within their systems, but not administering any penalty. It is a warning sign to other journalists and publications to choose their words carefully over that decision. I’m tired of what I perceive as the “spin” and tactics of the FIA press office, as are many other journalists. I expect my accreditation pass for next year will be hindered in some way to make my coverage of F1 more difficult and to punish me. Or they will write to ITV again to say that my commentary is not up to standard despite my unprecedented six Royal Television Society Awards for sports broadcasting. So be it.

 

This past couple of weeks I have attended many functions where I have met high-level F1 people, among many others. The discussion always moves to “how will the FIA get themselves out of this corner by not punishing Renault despite the outcome of the McLaren case”. That was the perception of many, and remains the billion-dollar question.

 

I have no issue with Renault or McLaren, they are both former teams of mine and I remain good friends with many in the teams and admire all they have achieved. But very few drivers or key team personnel in F1 can look you in the eye and honestly say they have never witnessed or been part of a transfer of information between teams. The purpose of poaching other team players is to fast-track the development and performance of the car. It’s a question of where the line is drawn about transfer of knowledge and intellectual property.

 

The immensely successful former F1 designer Gordon Murray made a good point when he said that years ago it would have taken several vans to carry the paper-based designs from one team to another. With the digital age and the massively increased complexity of today’s cars, along with the pressure created by the billions of dollars of funding from the manufacturers and sponsors, the stakes have changed and the line needs clarifying. Of course the FIA and any legal system engaged in the process are right to investigate this.

 

Many drivers and team bosses will be mighty relieved they haven’t been dragged into this. The guillotine fell as McLaren went under it and Renault have passed unscathed. It is enlightening to read the transcripts from the separate cases. The McLaren judgment is about negativity and suspicion of possible use of Ferrari information, but no real show-stopper I could see. Even now the decision to punish or exclude McLaren for 2008 has been deferred.

 

The Renault decision is one of an understanding and supportive nature and one only of occasional “strong disapproval” despite clear and confirmed evidence that information was loaded on to their mainframe IT system, including drawings of McLaren’s shock absorber, fuel system, mass damper and seamless shift transmission. Some drawings were printed off and idly laid on a key desk before being handed back after a disinterested glance, said the verdict. I laughed out loud on that one. And just as McLaren protested Ferrari’s floor back at the Australian Grand Prix, Renault used information taken from a McLaren “J-Damper” drawing to seek rule clarification with the FIA. It was deemed that, as with McLaren, it could not be proven Renault benefited from it. Surprisingly, although the case is left open if further information surfaces, unlike McLaren, the Renault team will not be investigated with regard to their 2008 car. Why would that be? I accept there was an element of “live” transfer of unpublished information over three months between Stepney of Ferrari and Coughlan of McLaren, but it seems the actual proof of information within the Renault team was significantly more damning.

 

This issue badly needs clearing up, but the Renault verdict muddies the water. All teams now know the ground rules have changed a lot. To an extent Ferrari, McLaren and Renault are all culpable for being careless with their systems and personnel with regard to the security and transfer in and out of their critical designs and operating procedures. How that many people and that much information can be defined and controlled is another matter. It seems like a good memory might be a strong quality for future designers.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And this is the excellent article (which subsequently won Martin Brundle a Sports Writer's Guild Award at the end of 2007) for which Max Mosley & the FIA are suing him & the Sunday Times for:

 

The Sunday Times

September 9, 2007

Witch-hunt threatens to spoil world title race

The sport’s focus is going to be on a courtroom in Paris that no Formula One fan cares about

Martin Brundle

(This article is subject to a legal complaint)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/for...icle2414580.ece

 

MONZA is one of the greatest theatres of motorsport, an emotive, historic parkland venue built in 1922. The trees shade the track. With five races remaining and four drivers in the hunt for the title, this is the perfect place to be. Or it was until they threw a bucket of cold water over it.

 

On the eve of the race weekend, at Ferrari’s home track, the governing body, the FIA, reopened the McLaren/Ferrari espionage case, citing new evidence. Having reserved the right to throw McLaren out of the 2007 and 2008 championships if information came to light that the technical blueprint of the Ferrari car had spread beyond a rogue McLaren employee and into the organisation, the hearing will be held on Thursday, just before next weekend’s Belgian Grand Prix.

 

For me this has all the feel of a witch-hunt, driven by the very people who have a primary responsibility to the sport. At a time when we should be excitedly micro-analysing the performance of the contenders, we’re caught up in this story. Many worldly and wise friends in the paddock yesterday, such as Sir Jackie Stewart and Murray Walker, expressed sadness at events.

 

Writs fly at Monza

 

Fernando Alonso and tester Pedro de la Rosa have been thrust to the front of the story after the McLaren drivers, including Lewis Hamilton, were invited to tell what they knew. They are being positioned as whistleblowers. Apparently this new “information”, shared in an e-mail in March between the Spaniards, is not exactly a smoking gun.

 

But it is a fact that the information has gone further into the organisation than McLaren claimed in the original hearing. In all the leaked letters and positioning there is the feeling of a plan, an end game – and it’s difficult not to see that through the prism of past controversies, often at around this time of year, involving Ferrari’s fight for the world championship. Think back to Alonso’s incorrect grid penalty here last year in the midst of his title fight with Ferrari. Think back to three years ago when the Michelin tyres used by Ferrari’s rivals were suddenly declared too wide, having been the same size for the previous three years.

 

If McLaren have broken the rules, they should be punished. But if the FIA finds them guilty and bars them from this year’s championship and probably the next, it will have a profound effect on the sport. Manufacturers and sponsors will all react to the damaged credibility.

 

We have two magnificent grands prix coming up in the next week, yet the sport’s focus is going to be on a courtroom in Paris that not one fan cares about or really understands. Inside the paddock we can’t fathom how, previously, two Toyota F1 employees can be handed prison sentences for industrial espionage using Ferrari software, yet the FIA was not interested in getting involved, and how Colin Kolles from Spyker could walk down the pit lane with a drawing from rival Toro Rosso presented as evidence of cloned cars, yet the FIA took no action.

 

So what is the driving force here? Does it involve the threatened breakaway GPMA series that Ron Dennis was involved in? Did Dennis try to torpedo key people out of their jobs? Is the FIA looking for McLaren heads to roll? I think McLaren are in for major pain next Thursday even though the root cause of this whole issue is a disaffected Ferrari man.

 

We can hope that Bernie Ecclestone will play his hand and say, “You are not interrupting the drivers’ championship,” but even he doesn’t always win. He tried hard to sort out the tyre fiasco at Indiana-polis in 2005 but was unable to.

 

If the FIA takes further constructors’ points from McLaren, it will cost the team tens of millions of pounds and generate potential difficulties with sponsor and driver contracts, but at least it will not wreck the future of Formula One. If it bars them from the remaining races in this year’s championship and beyond, it will be like hitting the self-destruct button.

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I'm not even going to attempt to further explain the Nazi fetish that Max clearly has, but his catalogue of comments that he has made throughout his life & the way he disowned his brother who had the audacity to apologise for his father's controversial fascist views in an autobiography speaks volumes.

 

I think it is worth sitting back & waiting to see what happens in his litigation case against the News of the World. Some how I think he is as likely to come away with a full unreserved apology & £500,000 as Lewis Hamilton has of being crowned F1 Champion in 2008 in a season that is already becoming a Ferrari procession.

 

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As for Prince Harry wearing the Nazi uniform, of course it was crass, but the context of that hooray henry party was to wear ridiculous/outrageous fancy dress, so it fitted the bill perfectly.

 

It would be like complaining about Mel Brooks film/musical "The Producers"; or the musical/film "Cabaret" :lol:

 

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Getting back to the Spygate scandal & the inconsistent way that McLaren & Renault were dealt with and punished, then I recommend you go and buy the latest book by veteran F1 (since the 1950s) writer & Radio 5 Live expert Maurice Hamilton's Chequered Conflict - The Inside Story of Two Explosive World Championships

 

Review:

Book of the week: Chequered Conflict- The Inside Story of Two Explosive World Championships, by Maurice Hamilton (Simon & Schuster £17.99)

Independent.co.uk

David Tremayne

Monday, 10 March 2008

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-r...799-793616.html

*****

There are already signs, as the new Formula One season is upon us, that the scandal surrounding the McLaren team has yet to be buried by all the parties concerned, even though two of the three are supposed to be keen to draw a line beneath events that so sullied the 2007 World Championship struggle.

 

Author Maurice Hamilton has chosen to chronicle not just 2007 but also another gripping season, 1986, in which the title also went down to the wire with three drivers in play. He was on the scene for every race in each of them, and for all of those in between, so is perfectly placed not just to tell the two very different stories but also to contrast them, and therein lies the hook in this account.

 

In 1986 there was a Brit, Nigel Mansell, fighting a Frenchman, Alain Prost, and a Brazilian, Nelson Piquet. Mansell and Piquet were team-mates who hated one another, while Prost was the outsider.

 

Fast forward to 2007, when another Brit, Lewis Hamilton, went up against his team-mate, the Spaniard Fernando Alonso, who was reigning champion, with Kimi Raikkonen as the outsider. There were tensions between Hamilton and Alonso too and, just as in 1986, the outsider came through to win.

 

But there the similarities end, for no season in Formula One history has been so acrimonious, nor so riddled with politics. Even the governing body, the FIA, had to answer allegations against its own conduct.

 

Primarily, this is the story of a proud man, Ron Dennis of McLaren, who was to discover in the cruellest terms that he knew less than he thought about what was happening within his team as he was betrayed by his chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who received stolen Ferrari data from his friend Nigel Stepney.

 

It is a parable of Formula One, primarily of its greed and self-interest. As Hamilton rightly concludes, what happened to McLaren in 2007 was motor racing's equivalent of a tsunami. When the waters receded, the sport's sense of fair play and honour had been swept out to sea.

 

There have, inevitably, been further developments since Hamilton's book was finished, but this remains a beautifully researched account of what happened.

 

But be warned: it is an unedifying tale that will change your view of a once-great sport.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This is my last word on this subject, as I have no interest in replying to any of your posts defending the indefensible that is Max Mosley!

 

 

Please answer 4 questions, no fluff, no spin, no 10000 word dissertations, just simple basics

 

 

1) Is there anything in those comments about Hamilton being bad for F1 that in any way directly relate to the colour of his skin ? you used the Mosley comments about Hamilton in your original post which could lead to some people thinking that you think those comments by Mosley are related to the colour of Hamilton's skin

 

2) Do you accept that I am right that McLaren were unpunished in the first hearing of the WMSC ? and that they were only punished in the second hearing because they lied in the first, do you accept the contents of that Autosport article that states clearly that McLaren were unpunished in the first hearing ?

 

3) If yes then would you please tell me why Renault who were utterly honest with the WMSC should not receive the same punishment as McLaren did in the first hearing ?

 

4) Do you accept the comments of Jackie Stewart and Ron Dennis that the FIA rules on the strength of cockpits personally drawn up and introduced by Max Mosley and Charlie Whiting saved Heikki Kovalainen's life on Sunday ?

Edited April 29, 200817 yr by Tim Barnes