I don't think many people in the thread deny that political voting DOES occur. But, as you rightly acknowledge, a lot of people vote for the favourite song aswell.

 

Take Finland, for example:

 

As far as I'm aware, they've have little political activity over the last 5 years which affected anyone else - nothing revolutionary anyway. They won the contest in 2006, and were given points by 23 of the countries (I believe 24 competed that year). Of their score, 8 voting countries gave them the top score of 12 points.

 

This year, two years later, they came 22nd. They were given points by 7 countries. What did they do POLITICALLY in these two years to make 16 countries mad enough at them not to vote for them, not even ONE point? Not much. Did they send a rip off of their winning song this year? Yes. And in 2007 with Hannah Parkaninen's 'Leave Me Alone'? Much as I love it, (and actually prefer to their winner from 2006), yes, they did. Over these two years people became bored with Finnish Goth Rock, and didn't vote for it this year. No other reason as as far as I can tell (and certainally no political activity which would turn 16 countries 'against' them) but a rubbish song choice.

 

The same happened with Sweden: as has elsewhere been discussed, they've sent very similar songs in 2004, 05 and 08. People responded well in 2004 - they ranked 18th this year, purely because people are bored with them sending the same song year after year. This years Swedish entry won in 1999 - but this year flopped out (:() at #18, not because Sweden are particularly controversial, but because the song wasn't exciting enough to compete against some big guns in 2008.

 

The point I'm making is: sure, neighbourly voting does occur, no-one can deny that it doesn't have ANY impact. BUT, I'd suggest that knowing Russia, Serbia et al are likely to make the top 10, surely we need to combat this with an EVEN STRONGER song than we would usually settle for? Or, we can use the other option and take the p***, then get mad when we lose.

 

I'm also confused as to why people think Hungary, Croatia, Latvia, Estonia, Greece etc give a damn about UK/Iraq relationship? They're not affected in any way? And surely if it's the reputation of the country's political image which affects votes, Russia wouldn't get a single point after years of Putin :o

Finland are a good example to use against the whole "bloc voting" arguments. They're traditionally a country who get a few points from Estonia and Sweden, so their win in 2006 was COMPLETELY down to the act. Only about 20-30 of their eventual 292 points in 2006 were down to their traditional neighbourly votes that they receive every year.

You both make very interesting points, and of course im not solely blaming the iraq war etc. because i know that's a load of bollocks lol, and i see the argument where you both come from...

 

Imo, we will never kill the political aspect of Eurovision. It's more likely then surely, that if a country sends a better song THEN all it's friendly countries will vote for it?

Its a really tough one this, i see arguments on both sides but imo it Is political.

It is difficult for certain countries. Someone such as Albania, for example, have a lot of potential 'friends' in Belarus, Bosnia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Czech Rep, Hungary, Latvia, Ukraine, FYR Macedonia, Moldova, Slovakia, Romania etc etc - if a vote it cast between Albania and 19 other countries (and vice versa), chances are it will be put down to 'political voting'. It's got a more than 60% chance of being accused of being a political win before the songs even been written or performed :o

 

And then add in the fact that a lot of the Eastern acts are well known and promote their Eurovision song among eachother, and the odds of getting good marks between them skyrocket!! Ergo = Lord Wogan has a field day!

 

also - i love your sig James :D

Edited May 27, 200817 yr by Andrewy

Well, yeah, totally correct... And the quality of the British entries for about the past five years have been utterly PISH..... Not even half-decent commercial Pop... We stack the odds against ourselves by wheeling out the seemingly endless bunch of no-hopers that we do.... Andy Abraham was the Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards of music......

 

We'd may as well have sent "Shazza and Wayne" from the Dog and Duck Karaoke team on Saturday.... Hell, even Jordan and Peter fukkin' Andre could've done better..... THAT is how sh!t we were mate.....

 

no he wasnt.... we liked eddie the eagle edwards! :lol:

 

and also he was very big in Finland...got to number 2 with "MUN NIEMI EN EETU"...so that would have been 12 more points for the UK entry then

 

and as for Andy Abraham...so what if Even If got to #67 in the charts...thats still 1 place higher than David Jordan the week before and 7 places higher than that other ZTT-er Seal a few months back....i would say he's in the right company there...

 

tho I think i'll stick with listening to t.A.T.u. and Propaganda

So am i saying this competition is totally political? Not at all, don't get me wrong. Andy Abraham was to be frank an absolute $h!te choice, and maybe if the UK cared a little more about Eurovision then we would have more chance of sending a better act. We could send someone with European success and im SURE that would improve our chances, but with the Irag War, our history, our nations typical xenophobis attitudes to the 'weird' former communist states, the state our country is in with government etc, our former war history etc. i really think it wouldnt do us complete justice. Now im not one of these people who just watches the voting and believes what Terry is telling us, i watch all the acts, get excited in the build up etc. and watch the show right through. I dont listen to Terry, i find him a complete tosser, but blanking out the idea of political influence is utterly ridiculous.

 

I would probably have a better time being convinced by this part of your argument if it wasn't for the fact that this country has ALWAYS been xenophobic towards its European neighbours, it aint something that just happened when the former Soviet States came in to the EU, and what about The Falklands and Thatcher's jingoistic attitudes? Neither of which went down particularly well with our European neighbours.. Didn't stop Bucks Fizz winning in '84 did it....? Our funny attitudes towards "johnny foreigner" never stopped UK from doing well in the past, and the facts are we've won the thing on a fair few occasions... I really do think it's more to do with the utter sh!t we send these days tbh...

 

Here's why I don't believe in the political/neighbourly voting thing:

 

Where were Estonia in the Final? Lithuania? Hungary? Bulgaria? Macedonia? The Czech Republic? Slovenia?

I agree completely Mark :cheer: Fantastic post, pity I wasn't here to see it earlier :(

It was a fantastic post, and while I agree with some aspects of it, I think some fans are deep in denial about this. Whatever reasons there are for friendly or political voting, there are many many factors other than the quality of song that countries are judged upon, which do have an effect, whether it is on th winner, the qualifiers, or those finishing in the bottom positions. The contest is far from a level playing field for every country and changes can and should be made to make it alot more even for every country. That is the very basics of it.

 

And don't tell me that I do not "get" Eurovision because I'm saying this, as it is blatantly true.

 

If people debate so much about this as they have done in the last few years then it obviously has an effect.

It was a fantastic post, and while I agree with some aspects of it, I think some fans are deep in denial about this. Whatever reasons there are for friendly or political voting, there are many many factors other than the quality of song that countries are judged upon, which do have an effect, whether it is on th winner, the qualifiers, or those finishing in the bottom positions. The contest is far from a level playing field for every country and changes can and should be made to make it alot more even for every country. That is the very basics of it.

 

And don't tell me that I do not "get" Eurovision because I'm saying this, as it is blatantly true.

 

If people debate so much about this as they have done in the last few years then it obviously has an effect.

It does have an effect, I just think it's been completely blown out of proportion. :( If we'd sent 'Believe' this year with someone who is well known here and relatively known around Europe - I can't think of an example right now - and had the ice skater and the violinist, I think we would've won. Maybe not as convincingly as Russia, but I still think we would've. Although having said that, had we only got six or seven off each former Soviet country... we might have gone below 230, which was what Ukraine got in second place...

And had your friend who chose Ukraine heard the song? Well, whether they had or not, Ukraine's song is absolutely fantastic and deserved to do as well as it did. That's exactly the sort of song the whole of Europe loves - I think we gave it five points? - and their runner-up position was well deserved. Lithuania are in eastern Europe and are a former USSR country, as are Latvia and Estonia - two crashed out in the semi-finals and the other severely under performed in the final. And Ukraine certainly aren't guaranteed to do well. Their 2005 song, when they hosted the competition, finished in 20th place or something. Pretty bad.

Also look at Russia. The last three years they've sent HUGE international stars and finished 3rd, 2nd and 1st. The year before that they sent a Reality TV reject like we always do and they finished 15th. I wonder why.....?

OK let me put another spin on this.

 

It is very hard to mathematically or statistically prove that political/neighbourly/diaspora voting decides the winner, who qualifies or who comes last. That was not your argument though. Your argument was that it is not ruining Eurovision. Leaving aside completely the impact it has on results....

 

It means that the individual votes from each country are predictable year in year out.

The whole argument has directly resulted in many stars keeping away from the Contest, here and abroad, as well as declining viewing figures.

Terry Wogan's commentary, which was once very funny and a big selling point for Eurovision in the UK, has become xenophobic and bitter ranting for 3 hours, and may be gone for good next year.

It has caused major arguments (not just "healthy debate") between Eurovision fans and non-Eurovision fans.

It is the major talking point after every contest, completely overshadowing the songs and performances.

 

I don't think anybody could argue that these are positive things, so whether or not the voting decides the results, I think that yes, it most certainly is ruining Eurovision.

Also look at Russia. The last three years they've sent HUGE international stars and finished 3rd, 2nd and 1st. The year before that they sent a Reality TV reject like we always do and they finished 15th. I wonder why.....?

 

Exactly.

 

Until we send for example: someone of the calibre of Leona Lewis singing a song penned by a multiple Ivor Novello winner like Gary Barlow, and do badly, then I see no damn reason to change my opinion that Wogan & the majority of the Great British public is at best ill informed, and at worst xenophobic regarding the issue of Eurovision.

 

We have not sent a half decent tune/artist since Jessica Garlick, and the UK results have been exactly what the UK deserves from the rest of Europe for treating the competition with such contempt.

Also look at Russia. The last three years they've sent HUGE international stars and finished 3rd, 2nd and 1st. The year before that they sent a Reality TV reject like we always do and they finished 15th. I wonder why.....?

 

were Serebro a huge international act? I thought they were a brand new band, created for Eurovision!?!

were Serebro a huge international act? I thought they were a brand new band, created for Eurovision!?!

According to Wiki, you;re right. Elliot/Eileen was lying then. :P

 

 

But still, who can deny it wasn't a bloody fantastic song?! And it did beat established artists in the national final.

Edited May 29, 200817 yr by RabbitFurCoat

Another thing to take into account I suppose is looks. I'd like to think it doesn't have an effect but it probably does.

 

Ani Lorak was incredibly gorgeous and came second and although men do nothing for me I'd guess Dima Bilan is well liked. Whereas we sent a bald 43 year old man...

Another thing to take into account I suppose is looks. I'd like to think it doesn't have an effect but it probably does.

 

Ani Lorak was incredibly gorgeous and came second and although men do nothing for me I'd guess Dima Bilan is well liked. Whereas we sent a bald 43 year old man...

 

As was proved both in 2006 and 2007, looks mean nothing in Eurovision!

As was proved both in 2006 and 2007, looks mean nothing in Eurovision!

 

good point, although I'm sure Marija appealed to a certain crowd, not myself granted :P

As was proved both in 2006 and 2007, looks mean nothing in Eurovision!

 

Why won't you, Terry Wogan & the majority of the British public except the fact that Russia won the Eurovision Song Contest fair & square?

 

Another interesting fact:

 

May 29, 2008 01:00 AM

Billboard.com

 

Sunset Entertainment Group Writer/Producer Jim Beanz Wins Top Prize at This Year’s Eurovision Song Contest with Dima Bilan’s Performance of “Believe”

 

LOS ANGELES--(Sunset Entertainment Group’s Jim Beanz was named this year’s recipient of the most popular song at the annual Eurovision Song Contest for his composition titled “Believe.” The song, which was performed on live television by artist and co-writer Dima Bilan, representing Russia, was declared the winner on the highest profile program on The Eurovision Network. Each European country participated via one of their national EBU member television stations, selecting a singer and song to represent their country in the international competition. During the live broadcast on May 24, each country voted for another countries’ song to determine the most popular song in the competition – this year being Beanz’ “Believe.”

 

Producer, songwriter, musician and singer, Jim Beanz, has written and/or produced songs by such mega-recording artists and performers as Nelly Furtado, Timbaland, Britney Spears, Diddy, Shakira, Ashlee Simpson, Danity Kane, Jennifer Hudson, Fergie, MIA, Duran Duran, Fantasia, Deborah Cox, Justin Timberlake, Esmee and Ashanti, to name a few. Beanz is a frequent Timbaland collaborator, who produced the track for the multi million selling Russian heart throb Dima Bilan, a recipient of the MTV Best Russian artist award for the past three years, and is based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Beanz was eligible to represent Russia as a songwriter due to his father's parentage.

 

According to Wiki, you;re right. Elliot/Eileen was lying then. :P

But still, who can deny it wasn't a bloody fantastic song?! And it did beat established artists in the national final.

 

shock horror! :lol:

 

it was a great song and I'm glad it came third :wub: one of two of Russia's five top 3 finishes of this decade that I felt that they deserved based on the quality of the song (the other being Alsou in 2000)

Why won't you, Terry Wogan & the majority of the British public except the fact that Russia won the Eurovision Song Contest fair & square?

 

At what point in my post about looks which you were referring to, did I imply that Russia did not? When I said that looks mean nothing in 2006 and 2007 I meant that the winners in those years were hardly the prettiest contenders that year.

Edited May 29, 200817 yr by Peter30