May 26, 200817 yr hmmm..... t.i.p. has a good point, and historically we did best in the 60's 70's when we used established acts (cliff, lulu, sandie..) but.... we won with bucks fizz, and with a song that wasnt THAT good.... they were 'unknowns'. i still think that the major obsticle to us (or western european countries) winning is 'neighbours'... like minded countries voting for like minded songs, neighbours in eastern europe will prefer eachothers songs. i think the way foreward would be to split europe into similar regions and have say 3? 4? 5? entries from countries in each region.
May 26, 200817 yr I think a lot of the UK is beginning to see the Eurovision as less and less of a joke really. The disappointment and apparent anger that we've seen in the media today and yesterday show that most people see it as more of a national pride thing, and less of a joke that no one cares about how we do in - because people clearly do. It's all Wogan's fault that people started to see it as a joke here, and because the BBC kiss his arse so much, they now also treat is as a joke and get these reality TV rejects in our national finals. The BBC need to ditch the national final and just internally select a song, preferrably from Guy Chambers if he's willing to write a song and has possible artists lined up!
May 26, 200817 yr hmmm..... t.i.p. has a good point, and historically we did best in the 60's 70's when we used established acts (cliff, lulu, sandie..) but.... we won with bucks fizz, and with a song that wasnt THAT good.... they were 'unknowns'. i still think that the major obsticle to us (or western european countries) winning is 'neighbours'... like minded countries voting for like minded songs, neighbours in eastern europe will prefer eachothers songs. i think the way foreward would be to split europe into similar regions and have say 3? 4? 5? entries from countries in each region. oh ive just read what RFC put in her thread.... agreed!
May 26, 200817 yr Author Thisispop. I know Paul Gambaccini, & I predicted to him on Friday, that the UK would get low Votes in the ESC. I said that the UK has to decide if we should stay in something that - MAYBE - the Geographical Voting - means we can never Win again. That is why the UK USED to Enter - to Win. Surely, we are not so c**p now that we only have a 'Goal' of making the Top 10 Finalists? What is the point of THAT? I agree - we HAVE to send better Songs in, & a better known Act would help too - Duffy for example. (It would be most UNwise to try to rely on Amy Winehouse - as is obvious!) WIMBLEDON - A false comparison. We have not Won Wimbledon since 1977 - 31 Years ago. We have Won Eurovision 3 times since 1976. There is no 'Big Past' of the UK coming 2nd in the Mens or Womens Finals at Wimbledon on a Total of 20 occasions - 5 Wins, & 15 Second places. The UK does NOT expect to Win Wimbledon - or even to get into the Final - at all. As a contrast, we have ended up in the Top 2 at the ESC on 20 occasions - more than ANY other Country. When it turns out that we cannot get into the Final 12 more than ONCE, (3rd in 2002), in the past 10 ESC's - well many in the UK are bound to become fed up. Especially, as at Wimbledon how an individual Plays has a lot to do with how well they do. At the ESC how well we do depends hugely on OTHERS - their Votes. (Anyhow, I am a huge Tennis Fan, & I can tell you that ANDY MURRAY will eventually Win Wimbledon for us - far more skill than Tim Henman ever had). It would help if we stopped sending rubbish to Enter the ESC for us - BUT, if the Voting still goes against us - even with a fantastic UK Entry, (IF we ever send one!) - then at that stage we really should walk away. It would be the final nail in the coffin for the UK's interest in Eurovision.
May 26, 200817 yr oh ive just read what RFC put in her thread.... agreed! Thankyou, but I am infact, a him! :P
May 26, 200817 yr Thisispop. I know Paul Gambaccini, & I predicted to him on Friday, that the UK would get low Votes in the ESC. I said that the UK has to decide if we should stay in something that - MAYBE - the Geographical Voting - means we can never Win again. That is why the UK USED to Enter - to Win. Surely, we are not so c**p now that we only have a 'Goal' of making the Top 10 Finalists? What is the point of THAT? Rubbish agument. Surely everyone in every type of competition, whether it be sport, singing, dancing, juggling or horse riding is in it to win it! Just because they don't do well doesn't mean they should stop. And they don't, they come back the following year trying harder, pushing themselves further, working out how to do better. But this is where UK and ESC are different, we don't do any of those things. We instead think that by keeping on doing exactly the same thing it'll work, and it won't! Edited May 26, 200817 yr by RabbitFurCoat
May 26, 200817 yr But this is where UK and ESC are different, we don't do any of those things. We instead think that by keeping on doing exactly the same thing it'll work, and it won't! That's pretty much it in a nutshell.... We continue to send amatuer hour sh!te, and wonder why we embarrass ourselves. Answer - WE DESERVE TO BE EMBARRASSED.... As do Ireland with Desmond The fukkin' Turkey.... High time for a total rethink of our attitudes and strategy towards ESC... Of course, with w*n**rs like Wogan seemingly in charge, it aint gonna happen, and UK will continue to be at total embarrassment..... I'm utterly ashamed of the absolute tripe we send out to ESC, especially when I KNOW we have an incredibly rich, dynamic and diverse musical culture in this country.....
May 26, 200817 yr Author The FACT remains that how well the UK does in the ESC does not SOLEY depend on the Act or Song that we send in. The Votes are - in the end - all that count. No one Votes on whether the England Team does well at Soccer - it depends 100% on how well we play against our opponents. Just as it depends how well a British Player does at Wimbledon, how skilled they are, & how well they play. No one Votes on how far a British Player gets in the Wimbledon Tournament. If the England Team play well in the World Cup, then we progress - if we play badly then we do not get very far. NONE of that depends on the TV Viewers or people in the Stadium casting Votes. As a contrast, we could send our greatest Song in to the ESC, with our best Performer(s), & that does not guarantee that we will Win - or even finish in the Top 10 - it SOLEY depends on VOTES - of OTHERS. The comparison with Sport is therefore 100% a red herring - as is perfectly obvious. So, the 'rubbish argument' retort is therefore 100% wrong.....Logically, there is absolutely Zero parity between how well we do in Sport, & how well we do in The ESC - nothing in common - at all. (Unless one counts Ice Skating & Gymnastics!). People will keep comparing The ESC to Sport! Sport tends to be a Level Playing Field - the way the Voting works at The ESC shows - clearly that if you are from the UK or Ireland, your Entry does NOT have the same chances as Countries from the former USSR, or former Yugoslavia. It is so obvious, that people should not even have to point that out - sadly they do, as some people 100% refuse to accept that ANY such Voting goes on! 2 things go on - the UK sends c**p to Enter - and the Voting Patterns are against us anyhow. However, some people blame only our Entries. Others blame only the Voting. It is BOTH!!!!!! TWO things are against the UK doing well - not one. Oh - as regards Wimbledon - that is ALWAYS in the UK - London. It brings in Tourists, TV Cash, Broadcasting Cash, & so on, every Year - to the UK. It matters not that we never Win, as we get a LOT from the Tennis Tournament anyhow. As a contrast, we get NOTHING from The ESC, if we merely pay towards it, never do well in it, & never Win it. One has to wonder if The ESC will ever be put on in the UK or Ireland ever again. After all - we are not entitled to put the Contest on, if we do not Win. The bottom line - A great many people in the UK already see no point in us entering The ESC. In 2009 - IF - we send a great Song in - by a big Name Act - and it still cannot get high Votes - then even more people will want us to stop bothering to Enter. (INCLUDING a lot of those people who are defending The ESC at this stage.....Why? Because it is one of their 2008 arguments:, 'All we need to do is to send a great song in, with a well known act, & we will do very well in 2009!') Edited May 26, 200817 yr by zeus555
May 26, 200817 yr I don't see why Britian would send a good act into Eurovision, I mean what do they have to gain? Absoluely nothing. Why does a mainstream act like Mika, Duffy or Coldplay need to appeal to some Eastern European acts? They don't. They have nothing to gain at all, and if they don't win then they'd be slated by the UK. Yes Eurovision is treated as a joke nowadays, and I really don't think people don't care, but all this fuss has kicked off because we don't like losing. No-one wants to finish bottom, it's downright embarrassing. English people are used to winning / doing well in everything, because that's the way we are. In a way, we as a nation think we're bigger than we actually are, but hohum. If Wogan goes, then the BBC goes. Simple as. A lot of people only watch Eurovision for his comments and I truly believe that if he pulled out then the BBC would too. Okay, maybe if the UK send a well known act in next year and do well then things will change, but I don't believe that there's that many big name stars (or reasonably well-known) waiting to participate in Eurovision.
May 26, 200817 yr I think saying there's "nothing to gain" is a bit of an ignorant view myself Ren, but a vast majority of British people would agree with you. We don't quite seem to be able to allow ourselves to associate with eastern Europe - or the rest of Europe at all - when it comes to music. There's a massive audience out there, particularly in Russia, that artists like Duffy aren't well known in (I don't think?), but most likely could be should she enter and do well. Oh and then there's national pride. :heart:
May 27, 200817 yr I think saying there's "nothing to gain" is a bit of an ignorant view myself Ren, but a vast majority of British people would agree with you. We don't quite seem to be able to allow ourselves to associate with eastern Europe - or the rest of Europe at all - when it comes to music. There's a massive audience out there, particularly in Russia, that artists like Duffy aren't well known in (I don't think?), but most likely could be should she enter and do well. Oh and then there's national pride. :heart: Maybe nothing to gain was the wrong statement to use, but you know what I mean. From an industry point of view, why would a record company want to break eastern Europe when they can make a lot more money is say the USA or somewhere? We live in a money making world nowadays and people think in the way of where the £ sign is and the market is much bigger in the USA, so record companies will always be inclined to to attempt to concentrate on that market rather than different markets. I just think the majority view of Britain share the view that Eurovision is a joke because we can't win it and this is why a large majority of people don't take it seriously. Now I shall admit my view of Eurovision has changed over these past few days, in that I always thought it was political voting, but now I do agree that some of it is down to song choice too. But still, some countries can send absolute $h!te into the contest and still come away better than the UK.
May 27, 200817 yr British Artists who dont see the potential benefits of tapping into the Continental and Eastern European markets are incredibly short-sighted and downright foolish IMO... As Morrissey once said "America is not the world", if I was in a band and was selling 10 million records in Continental and EE, I wouldn't give a damn about the States tbh..... There's serious money to be earned in those markets, they are HUGE..... UK Acts like Client and Melanie C are doing well in Continental Europe.... Send one of them to Russia next year, roll the dice..... Or, hey, howabout we give TaTu UK citizenship....? :lol: :lol: Wouldn't be the first time the UK used a NON-British act in the ESC (Katrina and the Waves, Gina G.....).
May 27, 200817 yr some countries can send absolute $h!te into the contest and still come away better than the UK. That tends to be amusing sh!te, whereas the sh!te we send is just, well, sh!te....
May 27, 200817 yr Some countries are more or less guaranteed about 50 points every year, but that's something we've got to deal with. Take Russia for example in 2005... It was probably the worst entrant that year, and only got 57 points, in comparison to the previous three contests where they've got over 200 each time... 4 from Ukraine 7 from Lithuania, Estonia, Finland 10 from Moldova, Latvia 12 from Belarus Proof that they're not guaranteed top three, even top ten, every time, and that their previous three songs (2006, 2007, 2008) are all very worthy of their high positions.
May 27, 200817 yr Thankyou, but I am infact, a him! :P oh my.... where did i get the idea from that you was a bint?... apologies m8! :)
May 27, 200817 yr The FACT remains that how well the UK does in the ESC does not SOLEY depend on the Act or Song that we send in. The Votes are - in the end - all that count. No one Votes on whether the England Team does well at Soccer - it depends 100% on how well we play against our opponents. Just as it depends how well a British Player does at Wimbledon, how skilled they are, & how well they play. No one Votes on how far a British Player gets in the Wimbledon Tournament. If the England Team play well in the World Cup, then we progress - if we play badly then we do not get very far. NONE of that depends on the TV Viewers or people in the Stadium casting Votes. At the same time though Zeus, we dont see the likes of Man Utd or Chelsea sending out a reserve team or a bunch of spotty 15-year old kids straight from the local park to the Champions League final do you....? You dont see Andy Murray or Tim Henman being benched for Wimbledon in favour of the blind, one-legged dwarf from No 23.... So, why do we continually send amateurs, has-beens, never-weres and no-hopers to ESC like it's some sort of Karaoke down the Winchester Pub...? Our attitude is all wrong mate, simple as... I dont blame the rest of Europe for disliking us, Europeans can clearly pick up on the fact that we're just wasting time and taking the p!ss with stuff like we have been sending for the past 5 years or so.... Maybe we should just pull out altogether if we cant mend our pathetically xenophobic attitudes.... -_-
May 27, 200817 yr You dont see Tim Henman being benched for Wimbledon in favour of the blind, one-legged dwarf from No 23.... No, but some might say it'd be an advantage... :lol: :lol:
May 27, 200817 yr Author But TWO things are happening with the UK & The ESC - not one. It is not the case that the UK doing badly is soley down to the 'Voting Patterns' - the LACK of quality of our Entries plays a part too. Just as it is not the case that the poor quality of our Entries is soley why we finish so badly - there are clearly Voting Patterns. It does not matter WHY they exist - they are clearly there. Some say that it is 'Political Voting', others that the many 'Eastern' European Countries in the Contest, have 'similar tastes in music'. Whatever the reason - it is a clear DISadvantage to the UK - even before we choose our Entry. I think that the UK will give it 1, or 2 - maybe 3 more Years - and if we do not even reach the Top 15 Finalists in that time, then we will just walk away. The UK NEEDS the European Union, & I am glad we are in it. We actually do NOT need The ESC - no more than we need 'Miss World' - and that has long gone from the BBC & ITV. A LINK:, From today's 'Daily Express'. (I believe it is but 1 of about 4 UK Polls that have been taken since Saturday - and the majority opinion was the same - leave The ESC NOW). http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/45760/...quit-Eurovision If the BBC wants to ignore such Polls - fine. After all it pays Jonathan Ross millions, just so he can tell each of his Chat Show guests, how great they are, how wonderful they look, & how terrific their Films are, or their Acting is, or Records are - one could train a Parrot to do it! So why would the BBC care if the £180,000 that it spends on The ESC is regarded as pointless, by a great number of TV License Payers?!
May 27, 200817 yr The Daily Express is read by the sort of people who will listen to anything Wogan throws at them though, without thinking anything through. The Express is far and away the worst paper out there imo. Makes The Sun look like a very credible paper. Had Wogan not been so adament that Andy Abraham deserved to do well, these people wouldn't be demanding we pull out of the contest. In fact, I bet a vast majority of them haven't even heard it, let alone seen the embarassing performance he put in. :manson:
May 27, 200817 yr Wogan's Andy Abraham worship was ridiculous...I know he had to 'save face' as he gave Andy the chance anyway but Even If really isn't a particularly great or memorable song Michelle Gayle would have come bottom as well, I'm sure of it...why these two made it to the final two is beyond my comprehension... The Revelations would have done about as well as Spain/France Loveshy, Rob and Simona would have at least come 23rd... it was a terrible bunch of songs to start with, but we ended up with the worst two in our final!
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