perusing youtube i found this...

 

its a traditional english folk song... 'cold haily windy night'.. but this version by 'imagined village' has been heavily 'ethnicised' up...

 

 

i remember the furore that the likes of fairport convention and steeleye span caused in the folk world when they went 'electric', purists complaining with some justification that folk shouldnt be electric, but accoustic as written.

 

is 'ethnicising' up an english folk song devaluing its historical significance? dumbing down english culture? or is it a step of creativity?

 

ps.... in the line up is non other then folk stalwart martin carthy, he of fairport and steeleye fame..

its an interesting concept, featuring some well known names including billy bragg and paul weller

 

info here http://imaginedvillage.com/releases/The_Im...ge_with_free_EP

 

i remember the furore that the likes of fairport convention and steeleye span caused in the folk world when they went 'electric', purists complaining with some justification that folk shouldnt be electric, but accoustic as written.

 

is 'ethnicising' up an english folk song devaluing its historical significance? dumbing down english culture? or is it a step of creativity?

 

ps.... in the line up is non other then folk stalwart martin carthy, he of fairport and steeleye fame..

 

Well, frankly I think the only reason that "Folk Music" wasn't 'electric' is only cos the creators of the music didn't have access to the technology at the time..... I'm sure most of them would've loved to have had an electric guitar tbh...... "Folk Music" is merely evolving is all....

 

This is the same argument as all the bores made when they called Bob Dylan a "traitor" when he crossed over to electric to write what was probably some of the best material he'd ever written.....

 

Well, frankly I think the only reason that "Folk Music" wasn't 'electric' is only cos the creators of the music didn't have access to the technology at the time..... I'm sure most of them would've loved to have had an electric guitar tbh...... "Folk Music" is merely evolving is all....

 

This is the same argument as all the bores made when they called Bob Dylan a "traitor" when he crossed over to electric to write what was probably some of the best material he'd ever written.....

 

im sure youre right, folk music was created by the people for the people and throughout the ages they used whatever instruments were available to them...

 

however im asking the question... is mixing ethnic music with traditional english (or british) folk music dumbing it down too much? its akin to a yank blockbuster FILM depicting and re-writing a war film.

 

maybe ethnic instruments and musical style might]/i] have a place in modern folk, but interpreting songs from 2-300 years ago by hybidising them with both traditional and ethnic instruments is wrong...???

maybe ethnic instruments and musical style might]/i] have a place in modern folk, but interpreting songs from 2-300 years ago by hybidising them with both traditional and ethnic instruments is wrong...???

 

But isn't "Hybridising" just an aspect of music anyway...? Blues was hybridised by the likes of Jimmy Page, Tommy Iommi and Jimi Hendrix into Hard Rock/Metal..... Page, Iommi and Hendrix took old blues standards (which is surely in itself a form of American "folk music") and re-interpreted them.. As did Dylan with folk music.... Kraftwerk took classical song-writing structures and tranferred it into "Maschine Muzik", using electronic instruments, etc..... And look at what the likes of Portishead and Massive Attack have done with Soul and Rhythm and Blues... Absolutely astounding...

 

But isn't "Hybridising" just an aspect of music anyway...? Blues was hybridised by the likes of Jimmy Page, Tommy Iommi and Jimi Hendrix into Hard Rock/Metal..... Page, Iommi and Hendrix took old blues standards (which is surely in itself a form of American "folk music") and re-interpreted them.. As did Dylan with folk music.... Kraftwerk took classical song-writing structures and tranferred it into "Maschine Muzik", using electronic instruments, etc.....

 

Maschine Musik - a rebranding close to Kosmische Musik i guess - not heard of that before - but yeah that might be a better genre definition that just saying it's synthpop or electropop and just referencing the 1980s - something that goes before that to more experimental times, gets the cold industrial metalic sometmes brutal 'more punk than punk' 1970s electronic theme across...Phil Oakey barking over a slide show rather than the sheffield abba....

 

...but as for the 'imagined village' - has been quite a lot of stuff about them in Songlines and tracks on there free CD but havent got round to reading that issue/cd yet

But isn't "Hybridising" just an aspect of music anyway...? Blues was hybridised by the likes of Jimmy Page, Tommy Iommi and Jimi Hendrix into Hard Rock/Metal..... Page, Iommi and Hendrix took old blues standards (which is surely in itself a form of American "folk music") and re-interpreted them.. As did Dylan with folk music.... Kraftwerk took classical song-writing structures and tranferred it into "Maschine Muzik", using electronic instruments, etc..... And look at what the likes of Portishead and Massive Attack have done with Soul and Rhythm and Blues... Absolutely astounding...

 

dunno actually if its the same thing.. after all, hendrix et al didnt really add that much to the sound or the emotion that blues evolked. taking an english folk song that is several hundered years old and re-vamping it with sitars and bhangra drums somehow doesnt sit right. ok as a musical experiment, its a very interesting concept and within modern folk songs in todays multicultural society wouldnt be out of place. but historically there was no place for sitars and bhangra drums in 18th centuary england, it aint 'merry olde englande'..

 

i suppose its the same thing as including and ethnic presence in a shakespeare play, just to be pc, (apart from othello of course...lol)

dunno actually if its the same thing.. after all, hendrix et al didnt really add that much to the sound or the emotion that blues evolked. taking an english folk song that is several hundered years old and re-vamping it with sitars and bhangra drums somehow doesnt sit right. ok as a musical experiment, its a very interesting concept and within modern folk songs in todays multicultural society wouldnt be out of place. but historically there was no place for sitars and bhangra drums in 18th centuary england, it aint 'merry olde englande'..

 

i suppose its the same thing as including and ethnic presence in a shakespeare play, just to be pc, (apart from othello of course...lol)

 

To go back to my argument though... You said that folk musicians used whatever instruments were available at the time, so, what IF someone had came along and given them a sitar or bhangra drum, would they not learn to play it and use it....? Why criticise the instrument itself....? It's only the means of putting across the act of musical-expression.... To use another example, I've heard virtuoso guitarists like Steve Vai play classical pieces by Mozart and Bach using an electric guitar, and it sounds fukkin' amazing..... Was it quite what the composers of these pieces intended at the time..? Probably not, but I doubt that Mozart would fail to be impressed by someone modernizing his works, Mozart was himself very ahead (a proto-Modernist in many ways...) of his time and would probably be doing stuff like Vai anyway if he was around in this day and age.....

 

To go back to my argument though... You said that folk musicians used whatever instruments were available at the time, so, what IF someone had came along and given them a sitar or bhangra drum, would they not learn to play it and use it....? Why criticise the instrument itself....? It's only the means of putting across the act of musical-expression.... To use another example, I've heard virtuoso guitarists like Steve Vai play classical pieces by Mozart and Bach using an electric guitar, and it sounds fukkin' amazing..... Was it quite what the composers of these pieces intended at the time..? Probably not, but I doubt that Mozart would fail to be impressed by someone modernizing his works, Mozart was himself very ahead (a proto-Modernist in many ways...) of his time and would probably be doing stuff like Vai anyway if he was around in this day and age.....

 

IF they had access to 'ethnic' instruments 2-300 years ago then yes, it would have been in keeping.

 

traditional music though was made with things they could use, often things like spoons, buckets etc! its all about context. traditional folk songs arnt just about the music, they are a window into past times, and many of the tracks ive cited (over in retro... pre pop album) demonstrate this.

 

the fact is that history IS set in stone, what happened, what life WAS like then. the point being that when i hear sitars and bhangra drums it doesnt and could never fit the romantic (and factual) image of 'merry olde englande'.

the fact is that history IS set in stone, what happened, what life WAS like then. the point being that when i hear sitars and bhangra drums it doesnt and could never fit the romantic (and factual) image of 'merry olde englande'.

 

It was actually spelt "merrie" Rob seeing as how we're being all factual and all..... :P :P

 

Sorry mate, I just dont see the problem.... It's an experiment, and a pretty cool one at that.... No different to Vai doing Mozart "Plugged-In"..... No different to Hendrix, Page and Iommi blasting fresh air into old blues standards.....

It was actually spelt "merrie" Rob seeing as how we're being all factual and all..... :P :P

 

Sorry mate, I just dont see the problem.... It's an experiment, and a pretty cool one at that.... No different to Vai doing Mozart "Plugged-In"..... No different to Hendrix, Page and Iommi blasting fresh air into old blues standards.....

 

its spelt several ways mate, merry, merrye, besides merrie. pre-johnson you spelt things however you thought...lol

 

i agree its a cool experiment, and i cant really comment on hendrix et al because im not up on blues.

 

its the sound of music that gets me, it can lift/depress/move/evolke me in many ways. i cannot consiliate 'foreign' sounds with trad english sentiments. if i hear sitars it doesnt conjur up mental images or sentiments of 18th centuary rural england! likewise id hate some black rapper to 'urbanise' 'the blacksmith'...lol..

its the sound of music that gets me, it can lift/depress/move/evolke me in many ways.

 

thinking about this bit... i think this is why i like trance so much...

id hate some black rapper to 'urbanise' 'the blacksmith'...lol..

 

I doubt they'd bother... Rap is (or supposed to be anyway....) about the modern experiences of the Urban poor, what would an urban, poor black person living 'in da ghetto' know about blacksmiths??? They'd be more likely to rap about the local drug dealer or gang..... In a way, it IS (or was..) a form of Grass Roots folk music, just a very modern one....

 

But anyway... I just think that in a lot of cases, because nothing was really written down (how many of these "folk musicians" were able to read/write music anyway..?) trad Folk music can only really be interpretative anyway.... Y'know, one bunch of people do a tune on buckets and spoons, then some other bunch come along and say "Hey, wonder how that would sound played on a Bodhran (Irish drum..)...?" Then, before you know it, the likes of The Pogues come along and do it with drum kits and electric guitars, as well as the more "traditional" instruments..... Like I say, interpretative....

 

And, considering that we were in India for over 100 years (from the 1800s to the first half of the 20th Century), no-one's gonna tell me that colonialists with a more artistic bent weren't going around discovering all these ethnic Indian instruments, learning to play them and experimenting with them, because that's what creative people do.... Sitars didn't just appear in British musical culture with George Harrison and Jimmy Page, it was only because the social conditions allowed it in the 60s that it took that long, but I reckon the more creative people out there were doing stuff with these instruments for decades, it just didn't get recorded because of the general racist, anti-foreigner culture that Britain was .....

I doubt they'd bother... Rap is (or supposed to be anyway....) about the modern experiences of the Urban poor, what would an urban, poor black person living 'in da ghetto' know about blacksmiths??? They'd be more likely to rap about the local drug dealer or gang..... In a way, it IS (or was..) a form of Grass Roots folk music, just a very modern one....

 

But anyway... I just think that in a lot of cases, because nothing was really written down (how many of these "folk musicians" were able to read/write music anyway..?) trad Folk music can only really be interpretative anyway.... Y'know, one bunch of people do a tune on buckets and spoons, then some other bunch come along and say "Hey, wonder how that would sound played on a Bodhran (Irish drum..)...?" Then, before you know it, the likes of The Pogues come along and do it with drum kits and electric guitars, as well as the more "traditional" instruments..... Like I say, interpretative....

 

And, considering that we were in India for over 100 years (from the 1800s to the first half of the 20th Century), no-one's gonna tell me that colonialists with a more artistic bent weren't going around discovering all these ethnic Indian instruments, learning to play them and experimenting with them, because that's what creative people do.... Sitars didn't just appear in British musical culture with George Harrison and Jimmy Page, it was only because the social conditions allowed it in the 60s that it took that long, but I reckon the more creative people out there were doing stuff with these instruments for decades, it just didn't get recorded because of the general racist, anti-foreigner culture that Britain was .....

 

 

but thats entirely my point.... what do todays ethnic peoples know or care about 'merry olde englande'?

 

sound is all important, and sitars simply dont conjur up mental images of the english countryside in the 18th centuary! ... likewise an accoustic guitar or spoons , a tin whistle or fiddle, can sound indian... its horses for courses.

 

theres no record of any ethnic instruments being used in folk music or music in general until recently.

theres no record of any ethnic instruments being used in folk music or music in general until recently.

 

Well, yeah, no record.. But like I say, given Britain's disgustingly racist attitudes at the time, would it even have been acknowledged that some colonialists were turned on to the ethnic sounds, they would be regarded as becoming "tainted" or "going native", I'm sure.... There is, however, a lot of historical evidence to suggest that many Victorians were in fact fascinated by Eastern Culture.... Surely the music would be part of this fascination.....

Well, yeah, no record.. But like I say, given Britain's disgustingly racist attitudes at the time, would it even have been acknowledged that some colonialists were turned on to the ethnic sounds, they would be regarded as becoming "tainted" or "going native", I'm sure.... There is, however, a lot of historical evidence to suggest that many Victorians were in fact fascinated by Eastern Culture.... Surely the music would be part of this fascination.....

 

but there was life before the victorian fascists m8, and many of these traditional folk songs pre-date vicky by decades. theres pretty accurate records for most things in everyday use stretching back to the 17th centuary. it ethnic instruments were used then there would be records of it. you sound like you are trying to re-write the past to suit your pc leanings! :P

you sound like you are trying to re-write the past to suit your pc leanings! :P

 

Bollocks... You're trying to re-write the past by implying that a fascination with Eastern Cultures began only with the 1960s and the Hippie movement.... It goes WAY back further than that mate, at least 100 years previously...... Music of Black origin (blues, jazz, etc) has also been a feature of British culture since the early 1920s with Jazz clubs opening up in London....

 

You cant possibly know what "merrye olde Englande" was like anyway mate, you weren't even alive at the time, the only thing we have is an idea at best from second-hand accounts, the actual experience for the majority of the Peasant Classes was probably very far from "merrye"....

 

Regardless - this is an interesting idea/concept, it sounds really cool, and I dont see why it shouldn't be done with different instruments "just because" some petty-minded, folky-bores might take exception to it.... They're the same arseholes who called Dylan a traitor for plugging in an electric guitar FFS...... Oh, how dare he...... :o

Bollocks... You're trying to re-write the past by implying that a fascination with Eastern Cultures began only with the 1960s and the Hippie movement.... It goes WAY back further than that mate, at least 100 years previously...... Music of Black origin (blues, jazz, etc) has also been a feature of British culture since the early 1920s with Jazz clubs opening up in London....

 

You cant possibly know what "merrye olde Englande" was like anyway mate, you weren't even alive at the time, the only thing we have is an idea at best from second-hand accounts, the actual experience for the majority of the Peasant Classes was probably very far from "merrye"....

 

Regardless - this is an interesting idea/concept, it sounds really cool, and I dont see why it shouldn't be done with different instruments "just because" some petty-minded, folky-bores might take exception to it.... They're the same arseholes who called Dylan a traitor for plugging in an electric guitar FFS...... Oh, how dare he...... :o

 

those first two paragraphs are possibly the biggest load of nonsense you have ever posted on bj! :P

 

how can i be trying to re-write the past? in what way? all anyone can go off are the accounts written down at the time. these trad folk songs are the voices of our ancestors and if you bother to read the lyrics it enlightens you very much to have an idea of what life was like.

 

there is NO evidence at all that any instruments of ethnic origin have ever been used in traditional english folk music... or even classical for that matter. you talk as if the ancestors were half baked sub human compared with today... wrong! theres in fact very little difference between peoples lifestyles then and now. (material things aside). hence diaries, writings, lyrics, poetry, accounts, etc all give a very good account of life in 'merrye olde englande' (18th cent). these accounts stretch back into the 17th centuary and became commonplace after the civil war.

 

it aint about 'petty minded bores'... its about context. a sitar isnt an instrument that conjours up images/emotions of merrye olde englande. in the same way a fiddle and spoons cannot convey life in pre-rahj (sp?) india... or post rahj... for that matter.

 

the world is a place filled with differences, and thats how it should be, not a place where universal values have eroded our differences. theres a reason why curry is an indian dish, created with local indian spices.... and roast beef n yorkshire pud is an english dish..

theres a reason why curry is an indian dish, created with local indian spices.... and roast beef n yorkshire pud is an english dish..

 

The most popular curries these days were actually put together by Indian chefs in BRADFORD!!!! Tikka Masala..... :lol: :lol: :P

 

Sorry, but I think you are being a bore about this issue... Who cares....? Like I say, Folk music was INTERPRETIVE.... Lyrics were often changed or misheard (because nothing was recorded it all had to be done by ear or by memory...), melodies adapted down the years, which is why you always have the prefix "arranged by" whenever a "traditional" song is performed ....

 

I'm not saying that people were "sub human", I'm simply saying that, for by far the MOST part, the Peasant classes who were performing much of this Folk Music were illiterate, so therefore, how the hell COULD THEY write music down, or write diaries and journals....? The Peasant Classes COULD NOT read or write musical notation, they HAD to play by ear, or interpret.... And often times when things are done in this manner over the years, the original meaning gets a bit muddied - look at folk tales... Grimm's fairy tales bear scant resemblance to the original folk tales that were told in the oral tradition, it's a similar thing with trad folk music - it's a ORAL/AURAL tradition, NOT WRITTEN DOWN IN TABLETS OF FUKKIN STONE that various performers down the years would adapt and arrange....

 

...This is merely another of these adaptions and interpretations, like The Pogues do when they take old Celtic melodies and transfer them to electric guitars, drum kits, organs, sometimes even using drum click tracks and programming as well. I suppose that's UN-Irish..... -_-

 

Howabout you actually ENJOY it rather than slag it off and pass petty judgments on its un-Englishness or whatever, at the end of the day, it makes no difference..

The most popular curries these days were actually put together by Indian chefs in BRADFORD!!!! Tikka Masala..... :lol: :lol: :P

 

Sorry, but I think you are being a bore about this issue... Who cares....? Like I say, Folk music was INTERPRETIVE.... Lyrics were often changed or misheard (because nothing was recorded it all had to be done by ear or by memory...), melodies adapted down the years, which is why you always have the prefix "arranged by" whenever a "traditional" song is performed ....

 

I'm not saying that people were "sub human", I'm simply saying that, for by far the MOST part, the Peasant classes who were performing much of this Folk Music were illiterate, so therefore, how the hell COULD THEY write music down, or write diaries and journals....? The Peasant Classes COULD NOT read or write musical notation, they HAD to play by ear, or interpret.... And often times when things are done in this manner over the years, the original meaning gets a bit muddied - look at folk tales... Grimm's fairy tales bear scant resemblance to the original folk tales that were told in the oral tradition, it's a similar thing with trad folk music - it's a ORAL/AURAL tradition, NOT WRITTEN DOWN IN TABLETS OF FUKKIN STONE that various performers down the years would adapt and arrange....

 

...This is merely another of these adaptions and interpretations, like The Pogues do when they take old Celtic melodies and transfer them to electric guitars, drum kits, organs, sometimes even using drum click tracks and programming as well. I suppose that's UN-Irish..... -_-

 

Howabout you actually ENJOY it rather than slag it off and pass petty judgments on its un-Englishness or whatever, at the end of the day, it makes no difference..

 

im fully aware that we have embraced the curry culture, but we couldnt do it without IMPORTING foreign ingrediants!

 

you are WRONG. literacy was more widespread then you think and folk songs WERE written down! that how we KNOW them! as for oral tradition, why should that exclude foreign instruments? or referances too?... nah... your too full of pc ness and anti english sentiment to accept it. there was no ethnic instruments/referances used in traditional folk period.

 

you wouldnt understand anyway, you are a townie with no heart and soul in the countryside which is a living history book. thats the very same countryside our ancestors created and sung about, referances to nature were abundant.