you are WRONG. literacy was more widespread then you think

 

Really, what percentage of the RURAL working classes in the 17th Century were literate then...? Come on, give me a ballpark estimate...... Methinks you talk bollocks about this whole "literacy being widespread" thing... Literacy was only widespread amongst the ruling and chattering classes mate, and THEY were the ones who recorded history and tended to come from big towns, the country-folk had no "voice" to speak of in that sense, other than the ORAL traditions of folk tales and folk music, both of which are interpretive....

 

 

 

you wouldnt understand anyway, you are a townie with no heart and soul in the countryside

 

That's a truly pathetic statement... And bordering almost on personally offensive as well..... You come from DERBY, which the last time I looked, was a much bigger city than Dundee... So, please, don't start acting all 'Yoda' or Nature Man, you're a "townie" yourself..... :P

 

What I have no soul because I favour a bit of musical experimentation?????? What a load of cobblers..... Where the fukk would we be without musicians experimenting over the years... I repeat - IT MAKES NO BLOODY DIFFERENCE whether or not sitars were used two or three hundred years ago.... We live in the 21st Century now mate, they didn't have electric guitars back then either, so does this mean that bands like The Pogues shouldn't use them to re-interpret old Celtic melodies, that Bob Dylan shouldn't have 'gone electric', that Steve Vai shouldn't re-interpret the works of Classical composers on an electic guitar.... Bullsh!t..... It aint "disrespectful", it's merely utilising what's now available, it's experimentation, the very life-essence of ALL music, Folk Music should not be stuck in a Glass Case and remain somehow untouched.....

 

You've got a bloody nerve calling Richard (thisispop) a "musical snob" mate, when you come away with sh!te like this, you really do.....

not a place where universal values have eroded our differences.

 

That particular horse bolted when four lads from Liverpool plugged in their guitars and became the greatest musical phenomenon the world has ever known if you ask me.....

 

Like it or not, popular culture, the mass media, the internet, has done this..... Rock/Pop music is a GLOBAL phenomenon mate, there are no real differences anymore, even kids in China and the Middle East are downloading stuff like Coldplay and Nirvana, and probably at great risk to themselves....

 

Working Class people the world over have far more in common than they do differences, maybe if you lived in a big city, you might appreciate this fact.....

Really, what percentage of the RURAL working classes in the 17th Century were literate then...? Come on, give me a ballpark estimate...... Methinks you talk bollocks about this whole "literacy being widespread" thing... Literacy was only widespread amongst the ruling and chattering classes mate, and THEY were the ones who recorded history and tended to come from big towns, the country-folk had no "voice" to speak of in that sense, other than the ORAL traditions of folk tales and folk music, both of which are interpretive....

 

true that it was MAINLY (but not exclusively) the better off in society that were literate, in a world where cities were small and people lived in the countryside. however just pop along to many local churches or caves or places of beauty ... theres plenty of grafitti from the 17th-19 th centuaries. but being a city boy you wouldnt know that! :P

 

oral traditions that werent written down where later on when literacy became widespread.... NO RECORD OF ETHNIC music/instruments/people. i know of no traditional folk song that has any racist element, most dealt with death... murder, war, press gangs, hanging... other with tales, and others paint a rather happy account of life.

That's a truly pathetic statement... And bordering almost on personally offensive as well..... You come from DERBY, which the last time I looked, was a much bigger city than Dundee... So, please, don't start acting all 'Yoda' or Nature Man, you're a "townie" yourself..... :P

 

What I have no soul because I favour a bit of musical experimentation?????? What a load of cobblers..... Where the fukk would we be without musicians experimenting over the years... I repeat - IT MAKES NO BLOODY DIFFERENCE whether or not sitars were used two or three hundred years ago.... We live in the 21st Century now mate, they didn't have electric guitars back then either, so does this mean that bands like The Pogues shouldn't use them to re-interpret old Celtic melodies, that Bob Dylan shouldn't have 'gone electric', that Steve Vai shouldn't re-interpret the works of Classical composers on an electic guitar.... Bullsh!t..... It aint "disrespectful", it's merely utilising what's now available, it's experimentation, the very life-essence of ALL music, Folk Music should not be stuck in a Glass Case and remain somehow untouched.....

 

You've got a bloody nerve calling Richard (thisispop) a "musical snob" mate, when you come away with sh!te like this, you really do.....

 

no..i come from breaston, a village to the east of derby, i grew up in the countryside, i live a stones throw from the countryside, my hobbies are all based in the countryside, i know how the countryside works, i understand our history and its impact on our countryside, i recognise birds, wildflowers, trees, insects, i understand habitat controle and i understand the history of the countryside.

 

thats why i can 'get off' on traditional folk, i can empathise with the people who created our green and pleasant land. thats the land that inspired folk music, its bloody ENGLISH and not indian.

 

yes TRADITIONAL folk should be kept in a glass case, (ive not said that modern folk shouldnt reflect the multicultural land we now have), because THATS HOW IT WAS, as an historical fact, it IS set in stone.

 

 

That particular horse bolted when four lads from Liverpool plugged in their guitars and became the greatest musical phenomenon the world has ever known if you ask me.....

 

Like it or not, popular culture, the mass media, the internet, has done this..... Rock/Pop music is a GLOBAL phenomenon mate, there are no real differences anymore, even kids in China and the Middle East are downloading stuff like Coldplay and Nirvana, and probably at great risk to themselves....

 

Working Class people the world over have far more in common than they do differences, maybe if you lived in a big city, you might appreciate this fact.....

 

i know and in some ways its not a good thing IF it means people lose their individuality and identity.

 

but im against re-writing history to include elements that just were not there. there little difference between an accoustic and electric guitar... fiddles are electrified too.. but it doesnt detract from the music.

but im against re-writing history to include elements that just were not there. there little difference between an accoustic and electric guitar... fiddles are electrified too.. but it doesnt detract from the music.

 

Well, I dont believe a Sitar in place of a guitar is really a big deal either, and it frankly has a beautiful sound as well when played properly... Especially when you consider they are both STRING INSTRUMENTS played more or less in the same manner, by plucking or picking.... An electric guitar can sound radically different to an acoustic, when you start using effects pedals, distortion and such.... And you're still not acknowledging the fact that both The Pogues and Steve Vai did radically different interpretations of older music forms....

 

I just dont agree that it's "sacriligeous", I dont agree that it's re-writing history either.... It's just a slightly different delivery system, the tunes are essentially the same.... And to imply that it somehow shouldn't be done is just pure snobbery and elitism in my book.....

Well, I dont believe a Sitar in place of a guitar is really a big deal either, and it frankly has a beautiful sound as well when played properly... Especially when you consider they are both STRING INSTRUMENTS played more or less in the same manner, by plucking or picking.... An electric guitar can sound radically different to an acoustic, when you start using effects pedals, distortion and such.... And you're still not acknowledging the fact that both The Pogues and Steve Vai did radically different interpretations of older music forms....

 

I just dont agree that it's "sacriligeous", I dont agree that it's re-writing history either.... It's just a slightly different delivery system, the tunes are essentially the same.... And to imply that it somehow shouldn't be done is just pure snobbery and elitism in my book.....

 

m8... im a big fan of steelyeye span, fairport convention, and most of there offspins , the pogues are following in their wake, so im not ignoring it at all. indeed i embraced electrification of folk.

 

you are ignoring the fact though that the sound of a sitar (and i fully agree it does sound beautiful) just doesnt 'fit' with the sounds from 'merrye olde englande', it isnt snobbery or elitist, i never claimed my way was 'superior'. its CONTEXT, the sitar in particular is an indian instrument and when you hear one it doesnt conjur up mental images of 'candleford'... so imho its just out of place.

m8... im a big fan of steelyeye span, fairport convention, and most of there offspins , the pogues are following in their wake, so im not ignoring it at all. indeed i embraced electrification of folk.

 

you are ignoring the fact though that the sound of a sitar (and i fully agree it does sound beautiful) just doesnt 'fit' with the sounds from 'merrye olde englande', it isnt snobbery or elitist, i never claimed my way was 'superior'. its CONTEXT, the sitar in particular is an indian instrument and when you hear one it doesnt conjur up mental images of 'candleford'... so imho its just out of place.

 

Perhaps we should ask Michael Eavis what HE thinks of it then...? After all, he probably IS the best known gentleman farmer in the world and probs has a better knowledge of the country and folk music than you do mate..... :lol: He's probably had every single type of act under the sun performing as Glasto, and I bet he totally embraces precisely this kind of musical experimentation, he's probably had acts performing at Glasto doing this sort of thing....

 

Also John Peel was a very well known "countryphile" always talking on his shows about "Peel Acres".. I think he would have embraced this sort of thing as well..... So I really, really dont think that this is a case of "Bumpkins Vs Townies" mate.....

Perhaps we should ask Michael Eavis what HE thinks of it then...? After all, he probably IS the best known gentleman farmer in the world and probs has a better knowledge of the country and folk music than you do mate..... :lol: He's probably had every single type of act under the sun performing as Glasto, and I bet he totally embraces precisely this kind of musical experimentation, he's probably had acts performing at Glasto doing this sort of thing....

 

Also John Peel was a very well known "countryphile" always talking on his shows about "Peel Acres".. I think he would have embraced this sort of thing as well..... So I really, really dont think that this is a case of "Bumpkins Vs Townies" mate.....

 

whats michael evis got to do with TRADITIONAL folk music?

 

nothing, nothing at all....

whats michael evis got to do with TRADITIONAL folk music?

 

nothing, nothing at all....

 

Erm, doesn't Eavis have a FOLK TENT at every Glastonbury, since, like, EVER.....??? :rolleyes: I'm using him as an example of someone who promotes this kind of music through his festival and as someone who has an intimate knowledge of country life and "merrye olde englande"....

 

Now you really are being a snob mate.... You honestly think this guy wouldn't know about English Folk music...? Just cos the media only sees Glastonbury in terms of what goes on on the two main stages DOES NOT MEAN that there aint a hell of a lot of other stuff going on, INCLUDING Folk Music, traditional and modern..... But of course, you've probably never even been to a Glasto in your life..... -_-

Erm, doesn't Eavis have a FOLK TENT at every Glastonbury, since, like, EVER.....??? :rolleyes: I'm using him as an example of someone who promotes this kind of music through his festival and as someone who has an intimate knowledge of country life and "merrye olde englande"....

 

Now you really are being a snob mate.... You honestly think this guy wouldn't know about English Folk music...? Just cos the media only sees Glastonbury in terms of what goes on on the two main stages DOES NOT MEAN that there aint a hell of a lot of other stuff going on, INCLUDING Folk Music, traditional and modern..... But of course, you've probably never even been to a Glasto in your life..... -_-

 

what is it with people on here crediting others with things they DID NOT SAY nor imply.... <_<

 

ok... no i have never been to glasto, no i do not know how much about folk music eavis might or might not know. SO FCUKING WHAT?

 

that doesnt make my point about traditional folk any the less valied! im sick and tired of people on here TELLING me what i SHOULD and SHOULDNT like...

 

ethnic instruments IMHO have NO place in traditional folk.... that is MY opinion on it , as they do not 'fit', they are IMHO out of character, and DO NOT conjour up mental images or empathies with what the message/story of the song is about. that is the basic requirement needed by me as to wether or not i like ANY track, folk, classical, world, rock, uk garage, trance, mod, pop... anything.

We're obviously not going to agree on this are we...? You have your entrenched, rather parochial position on this that I feel is based upon elitism and snobbery.. You've said yourself that you've never been to Glasto, so why have a go at summat you admit you know NOTHING ABOUT....? Eavis promotes this music, the Folk Tent at Glasto gets a LOT of interest from the festival goers themselves... I would've thought you'd be happy about that, people going there, listening, enjoying and getting off on the music and the vibe..... Oh, but of course, they're all just bloody "townies", so they don't really get it do they....? Naah, only you and your country-folk master-race who are clearly the spiritual and intellectual superiors of us scummy townies and non-English types are clearly the only ones allowed to understand it..... -_-

 

Me, I just sat back and got off on how amazing this project sounded as MUSIC.... Well, if that makes me "soul-less", WOTEVAHHHHH dude..... -_- My opinion on this aint less valid than yours, I dont give a sh"t about the fact that I live in a city, I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION...

 

The superior attitude of some of you English peeps really pisses me off sometimes..... Which is probably why I come across a bit anti-English...

that doesnt make my point about traditional folk any the less valied! im sick and tired of people on here TELLING me what i SHOULD and SHOULDNT like...

 

Like or dislike all you want... But what you aint entitled to do is to imply that an artist somehow should not have the freedom to interpret a form of music that they have intimate knowlege of as they see fit..... Do what thou wilt should be the whole of musical law, especially when it's done in such a creative manner......

 

I dont particularly like Rolf Harris' version of "Stairway To Heaven" but my like or dislike of it or my absolute passion for Led Zeppelin's music does not mean that I have the right to actually say or imply Rolf SHOULDN'T do it, cheesy and naff though it may have been......

 

We're obviously not going to agree on this are we...? You have your entrenched, rather parochial position on this that I feel is based upon elitism and snobbery.. You've said yourself that you've never been to Glasto, so why have a go at summat you admit you know NOTHING ABOUT....? Eavis promotes this music, the Folk Tent at Glasto gets a LOT of interest from the festival goers themselves... I would've thought you'd be happy about that, people going there, listening, enjoying and getting off on the music and the vibe..... Oh, but of course, they're all just bloody "townies", so they don't really get it do they....? Naah, only you and your country-folk master-race who are clearly the spiritual and intellectual superiors of us scummy townies and non-English types are clearly the only ones allowed to understand it..... -_-

 

Me, I just sat back and got off on how amazing this project sounded as MUSIC.... Well, if that makes me "soul-less", WOTEVAHHHHH dude..... -_- My opinion on this aint less valid than yours, I dont give a sh"t about the fact that I live in a city, I AM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION...

 

The superior attitude of some of you English peeps really pisses me off sometimes..... Which is probably why I come across a bit anti-English...

 

in what way is it elitist or snobbery?.. because ive fully explained why i dont like it and doesnt think it fits the context doesnt equate to snobbery or elitism, its my point of view that i and content with.

 

YOU are just as entrenched, playing the oh so booorrring pc card. and wtf has glasto got to do with it? you keep harping on about that and has nothing to do with the original question i posed .

 

"

Naah, only you and your country-folk master-race who are clearly the spiritual and intellectual superiors of us scummy townies and non-English types are clearly the only ones allowed to understand it..... -_- "

 

is the most bloody offensive thing you have ever wrote... HOW FCUKIN DARE YOU. you are a bitter twisted individual.

 

 

is the most bloody offensive thing you have ever wrote... HOW FCUKIN DARE YOU. you are a bitter twisted individual.

 

Oh I'M bitter and twisted...?? You brought this sh!t up in the first place mate, I was talking about MUSIC, you decided to bring your "issues" with "townies" into the equation... I'm sorry did you not actually say that I was a "townie with no heart and soul", implying that I just couldn't possibly understand......?

 

The word is SNOBBERY!!!!! -_-

 

I'm beginning to understand how Jark feels now.....

YOU are just as entrenched, playing the oh so booorrring pc card. and wtf has glasto got to do with it? you keep harping on about that and has nothing to do with the original question i posed .

 

What the fukk does it even have to do with "Political Correctness" (whatever that means...) anyway....? I just liked the way it SOUNDED AS MUSIC, that it was in INTERESTING EXPERIMENT WHICH HAS CLEAR ARTISTIC MERIT....... This aint some musically retarded d!*kh**d with a laptop ruining an old 60s or 70s classic with a cheesy drum "beat", these guys are serious fukkin musicians, proper artists interpreting something they have an intimate knowledge of, which they have every right to do as artists....... If you weren't such a bloody snob, then you'd appreciate this..... FUKK ALL to do with PC, everything to do with MUSIC..... If you want to take my support of genuine artists to EXPRESS THEMSELVES as "political correctness", then I am more than proud to be PC on this issue..... Complete freedom of artistic expression is the LIFE BLOOD of all music......

 

I used Glastonbury as an example, because surely Glastonbury itself is the very hub of all things mystical and spiritual in "merrye England"... The place does have an atmosphere about it, everyone who goes there says it, and Folk music DOES play a very important part in creating that atmosphere at the festival....

 

At least I was lucky enough to be able to go to the Festival before it became part of "Mean Fiddler Ltd", so I got probably the genuine experience.....

Oh I'M bitter and twisted...?? You brought this sh!t up in the first place mate, I was talking about MUSIC, you decided to bring your "issues" with "townies" into the equation... I'm sorry did you not actually say that I was a "townie with no heart and soul", implying that I just couldn't possibly understand......?

 

The word is SNOBBERY!!!!! -_-

 

I'm beginning to understand how Jark feels now.....

 

ok.... look at it like this....

 

i wouldnt presume to tell you anything about films... nor would i presume to know as much as you on that. i wouldnt try to tell someone with a background in say... bagpipes how they work or the significance of the music. i wouldnt try to tell some dance dj about dance music as they have the superior knowlege.

 

you are a townie, fact, im a country boy, fact. i have an area of knowlege about history and the countryside, to me its a spiritual passion. so if i hear a traditional folk song id suggest that its possibly emotes me more then you. you get your kicks out of different music to me, now that aint being snobbish! its a pure and simple fact that we get different types of enjoyment out of differing music, but id suggest that my passion for trad folk is more developed then yours. (hell give me this one, your more developed in many other areas and i respect that).

 

unless you have meen moved by a trad folk song in the way i have for many years then id suggest that i know what im on about and you sould accept my position and not tell me its wrong!

 

ive fully explained why ethnic instruments IMHO have no place in traditional folk.

 

however, as a musical experiment , it can be done.... but... it loses its historical context. so the example given, 'cold, haily, windy night', becomes just another track. ive heard several versions of this track and they all 'fit' the feeling, the emotion, and gives it historical context. this is why i like trad folk... because its more then a piece of music, similarly to trance...its more then just dance music... any good music should move you in this way.. but... this version of 'cold haily windy night' DOESNT move me. so as a piece of music... fair enough.. as a trad folk song... nah.

 

as for glasto.... the point is... i dont fcukin care! it makes no difference to me what eavis does or thinks! his opinion is totally irrelevant.

 

you failed however to play your trump card, maybe you didnt know you even had it..:lol: ... martin carthy... king of english folk music and a personal fav of mine... is in the line up. HIS opinion is far more important to me then eavis's... :lol: