June 20, 200817 yr Author The fact that you say this says a lot about our male-dominated culture..... You shouldn't "hate" to sound like a Feminist at all Eliza, be proud... also think there is a point here about the female = pop male = rock mentailty that seams to be apparent in culture...you might get two singer songwriters doing that FM piano rock of an equal ideology one female one male - the female one (if she not v old) will be mostly thought as pop and so aligned with guilty pleasures, cheesy pop, naff records etc etc while the male artist will be thought as a more rock thing - which even thought as a more artistic thing even tho both will just be mainstrem pop/rock.... even tho they are referenced as a electropop act - i bet theres more luck finding Hot Chip in either Indie or Dance rather than the pop forum....
June 20, 200817 yr Author BJork. yeah but what? typing bjork is not really helping form a pro-active argument - bjork what?
June 20, 200817 yr yeah but what? typing bjork is not really helping form a pro-active argument - bjork what? lol i guess Dan. wants to suggest that Bjork is a musical genius :D
June 20, 200817 yr The NME godlike genius is a lipservice award paid to big name acts who can help the NME sell future issues by granting them interviews, that's all. The NME has always been male star-dominated. As for adding names to the list... Kim Gordon Kim Deal Tanya Donnelly Kristin Hersch Joan as Police Woman Basia Bulat Natasha Khan (Bat for Lashes) PJ Harvey Laura Marling Ok...not all 'geniuses' but then neither are half the f***wit blokes the NME claim are - if they had their way the record books would be rewritten to state Ryan Jarman invented rock n roll.
June 20, 200817 yr That's probably an accurate assessment... I mean, let's face facts, if Siouxsie had been a bloke, she'd've gotten every bit as much credit as Lydon or Strummer for Punk and Indie culture as we know it... Of course the Punks and Goths themselves give MUCHO deserved respect to Siouxsie, but the mainstream press..? The Industry itself...? Not nearly as much as they meted out to the other two..... couldnt agree more, susan banion is probably imho THE most inovative female artiste of all time ... (yeah kate bush is creative, but hasnt spawned a musical genre... (goth) )
June 20, 200817 yr Author The NME godlike genius is a lipservice award paid to big name acts who can help the NME sell future issues by granting them interviews, that's all. The NME has always been male star-dominated. Ok...not all 'geniuses' but then neither are half the f***wit blokes the NME claim are - if they had their way the record books would be rewritten to state Ryan Jarman invented rock n roll. :lol: yeah suppose thats a good point... but with hair like that...not in these shoes...I dont think so!!! :lol: pjvaqVAFuLI As for adding names to the list... Kim Gordon Kim Deal Tanya Donnelly Kristin Hersch Joan as Police Woman Basia Bulat Natasha Khan (Bat for Lashes) PJ Harvey Laura Marling well i think maybe we should get away from the list thing as the discussion will just get left behind - and omg! thats such a male thing as well - what is it with men and lists :lol:
June 20, 200817 yr Well there are many talents in the music industry; besides singing ability, song-writing, and all of the more commonly commented-on ones, there's the ability to pick producers and judge what's fresh, and judge demand - Madonna has such a good sense of that. With every album she has re-invented herself at least a tad (often a whole lot more). "Ray of Light" (produced by William Orbit, electronic music wizard) it's her best album Her latest album is far from "Ray of Light" and sounds like "Confessions..." reloaded She's not stupid, and she does actually have a pretty fabulous voice too (listen to Take A Bow or Nothing Fails!), but she just doesn't always employ it. Nothing Fails was written by Jem and Guy Sigsworth... :P Madonna is a genius at "picking" the right people for her albums (producers, songwriters) Edited June 20, 200817 yr by Alin
June 21, 200817 yr I think we are talking about musical geniuses , not talents. Madonna is definitely not a musical genius. She did not bring a whole different meaning to - Music-. Ah, but you're thinking of Madge NOW as opposed to the Madonna of the late 80s/early 90s, when she truly WAS radical and releasing great albums like "Like A Prayer" and "Erotica"..... Those were great and challenging records which blew apart a lot of preconceptions of how female pop-stars should be, and wave after wave of pale imitators (hello Britney, hello Xtina) followed in her wake. Her output now just doesn't even come close to matching what she was doing back then. These days she just lives off her reputation, feeds off the talent of producers, and rips off younger, more talented, edgier acts such as Ladytron, Client and Goldfrapp, who are the real contemporary Pop Music geniuses out there.... In the artistic sense she's lost it, big time; shrewd business operator though she is, that doesn't make her an artist or a genius......
June 21, 200817 yr (yeah kate bush is creative, but hasnt spawned a musical genre... (goth) ) I dunno, you could say that she's the godmother of all those "kooky, individualistic" female singer songwriters like Tori Amos, Alanis Morrissete, Emilie Autumn and Amanda Palmer...... :lol: Kate's definitely a highly influential artist..... I'd say she was a musical genius, or very near to it.....
June 21, 200817 yr The NME godlike genius is a lipservice award paid to big name acts who can help the NME sell future issues by granting them interviews, that's all. The NME has always been male star-dominated. As for adding names to the list... Kim Gordon Kim Deal Tanya Donnelly Kristin Hersch Joan as Police Woman Basia Bulat Natasha Khan (Bat for Lashes) PJ Harvey Laura Marling Ok...not all 'geniuses' but then neither are half the f***wit blokes the NME claim are - if they had their way the record books would be rewritten to state Ryan Jarman invented rock n roll. I would say that list is FAR more impressive than most of the male acts the NME bums on a regular basis - Coldpaly, Richard Ashcroft, Pete fukkin' Doherty, The sodding Kooks...... They can't touch ANY of your list in terms of creativity.....
June 21, 200817 yr I dunno, you could say that she's the godmother of all those "kooky, individualistic" female singer songwriters like Tori Amos, Alanis Morrissete, Emilie Autumn and Amanda Palmer...... :lol: Kate's definitely a highly influential artist..... I'd say she was a musical genius, or very near to it..... well ill give you that! and i would never argue that kate ISNT a highly talented, creative , artiste.
June 21, 200817 yr I think the reason for the fact that musical genius has been considered to be mostly male is that the industry was dominated from the start by men. Women were for the most part mouth pieces for male song writers and it wasn't til the late 70s and early 80s that women really started to take control of their own destinies. This is an attitude that still persists all over the recording industry. However people like Kate Bush and Siouxsie have managed to produce a body of work that they have been responsible for creating. I personally would add Chrissie Hynde to the list.
June 21, 200817 yr Ah, but you're thinking of Madge NOW as opposed to the Madonna of the late 80s/early 90s, when she truly WAS radical and releasing great albums like "Like A Prayer" and "Erotica"..... Those were great and challenging records which blew apart a lot of preconceptions of how female pop-stars should be, and wave after wave of pale imitators (hello Britney, hello Xtina) followed in her wake. Her output now just doesn't even come close to matching what she was doing back then. These days she just lives off her reputation, feeds off the talent of producers, and rips off younger, more talented, edgier acts such as Ladytron, Client and Goldfrapp, who are the real contemporary Pop Music geniuses out there.... In the artistic sense she's lost it, big time; shrewd business operator though she is, that doesn't make her an artist or a genius...... This is the perfect summation of Madonna's career. Those of you who think Ray Of Light his her best album, fail to release how ground-breaking & artistically adventurous her Like A Prayer album from 1989 was (presumably because you are too young, and were not around then, when major companies were pulling out of sponsorship deals with her left right & centre, due to the Like A Prayer video which got banned by MTV in the USA); and also the genuine girl power anthem: Express Yourself; spousal abuse: Till Death Us To Part; a moving song about her troubled relationship with her father: Oh Father; an incredibly moving song to her late mother: Promise To Try; a brilliant Beatlesesque lullaby: Dear Jessie; a fantastic 1960s girlgroup pastiche: Cherish; etc.... Sadly a far cry from the creatively bankrupt unoriginal mediocrity of easily her worst studio album of her long and distinguished career on Hard Candy. ..... As for the NME, any magazine that regards "What a waster, what a f**in' waster..." Pete Doherty as Hero of The Year; yet regards the much more talented, and successful Amy "Wino Junkie" Winehouse as Villain of The Year is screwed up, as proved by their worship of that talentless media whore (and school friend of the chief Editor of the magazine at the moment) Lily "If it was not for her family connections, she'd have got nowhere fast" Allen is an utter embarrassment, and insult to any music fans intelligence. ..... As for their worship of that public school equivalent of the Libertines, The Kooks, well it is clear why the lead singers' his longtime girlfriend Katie Melua dumped him, as her music is far more challenging and adventurous, than his bands lowest common denominator Indie for bedwetters, that makes Coldplay seem like the Rolling Stones FFS. As for "The mighty" Bush; not influencial???????? Anyone who gets a fantastic challenging comedy show named after an old nickname given to her by Smash Hits magazine has got to be good. Also without Kate Bush, would we have had Bjork, Tori Amos, Goldfrapp, Portishead's Beth Gibbons, Sarah McLachlan, PJ Harvey, The Sundays' Harriet Wheeler, Joan (Wasser) As A PoliceWoman, Martha Wainwright; Bats For Lashes; Joanna Newsom, Stina Nordenstam, Alanis Morissette, Fiona Apple, Cocteau Twins' Elizabeth Fraser, Sinead O'Connor, KT Tunstall, Happy Rhodes & Paula Cole all of whom have cited Kate as a major influence. Let alone male acts like Antony & The Johnsons, Rufus Wainwright, Tricky, Massive Attack, Marc Almond, Coldplay, Radiohead, Muse, Bloc Party, Suede & Outkast. Last word to the one and only John Lydon who has declared her work to be "f***ing brilliant" and has labelled her "a true original" and recently on Radio 2's Radcliffe & Maconie show labelled her "The Greatest ever female artist bar none".
June 21, 200817 yr ..... As for the NME, any magazine that regards "What a waster, what a f**in' waster..." Pete Doherty as Hero of The Year; yet regards the much more talented, and successful Amy "Wino Junkie" Winehouse as Villain of The Year is screwed up, as proved by their worship of that talentless media whore (and school friend of the chief Editor of the magazine at the moment) Lily "If it was not for her family connections, she'd have got nowhere fast" Allen is an utter embarrassment, and insult to any music fans intelligence. Spot on mate... I'm not the world's greatest Amy Winehouse fan, but the NME needs a kick up the arse.. Musically, Winehouse is streets ahead of toss like Doherty, Chris Martin and Luke Prickhard - oops - sorry, Pritchard... And your assessment of Lily Allen is 100% truth as well.... Her career is all about family connections and who she's mates with.. Not to mention the rubbish she spouts about people FAR more talented than she is on her MySpace page.... I think you got it right when you described Allen as a modern-day Wendy James.....
June 21, 200817 yr Well there are many talents in the music industry; besides singing ability, song-writing, and all of the more commonly commented-on ones, there's the ability to pick producers and judge what's fresh, and judge demand Musical talent has nothing to do with being savvy at marketing and having your finger on the pulse of what's happening. That's music 'business' - and it has nothing to do with how great or not any artist is..... and certainly has nothing at all to do with talent. More being pretty good at 'talent-spotting'. Madonna does actually have a pretty fabulous voice too I like Madonna - but she could never, ever be accused of having a 'pretty fabulous voice'..... just have a listen to her murdering 'Imagine' on her last tour... it's excruciatingly awful. At best her voice is reed-thin and I've seen her live enough times to know that very little of what we actually hear from her is 'live' at all - and what we do hear is auto-tuned to the max.
June 21, 200817 yr I can't agree, I actually adore the recording of Imagine at Re-invention. I'm not talking about the strength of her voice really, more the emotion it holds; it's rich and atmospheric at times, though not always.
June 21, 200817 yr I can't agree, I actually adore the recording of Imagine at Re-invention. I'm not talking about the strength of her voice really, more the emotion it holds; it's rich and atmospheric at times, though not always. I fail to hear any of that listening to Madonna. :lol: Even when she tries to be emotive, it clearly dosn't work and makes her voice sound weaker and more bland then what it already does,-'Dont Cry For Me Argentina'.
June 21, 200817 yr I fail to hear any of that listening to Madonna. :lol: Even when she tries to be emotive, it clearly dosn't work and makes her voice sound weaker and more bland then what it already does,-'Dont Cry For Me Argentina'. totally agree.... madonna might be a bloody good product now and over the years she has been good (agreed with the other oldies comments here) but her voice isnt anything unique, special or one that conveys emotion. i wouldnt put her in the same league as bush, springfield or sioux.
June 21, 200817 yr How could anybody deny that her voice lacks emotion after listening to Like A Prayer, The Power Of Goodbye, Nothing Fails etc? :mellow: Maybe it's just me then, I don't know.
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