Yeah, like demanding our President's head is going to get us anywhere but prison, and for a good damn while.

 

Nonsense, if the Govt was overthrown in a popular revolution, and another system was set up by those who overthrew it, how would there be any consequences.....? Washington never stood trial for booting out the corrupt regime he got rid of.... It's precisely the same principle.....If the Black Panthers HAD overthrown the Govt in the early 70s, or if Leonard Peltier (Native American activist and personal hero of mine.....) had done the same, neither of them would be in the nick cos they'd be the ones forming the new system of Govt, get my drift....?

 

The Bolsheviks overthrew the Tsar and shot him and his family, they never got arrested and put on trial for it.....

As for your cousin, I am sorry that he had to go through all of that, BUT, afterall, wasn't it his decision to go into the war to begin with? That's what war is - blood and more blood. I'm anti-war, don't get me wrong, but if you're going into battle...I dunno, it just seems as if you would expect to see gore. I'm honestly not trying to seem cruel but that's what war is all about.

After the suicide bombers we've already dealt with...who knows? I agree entirely with the above statement btw

 

He joined the army to defend his country and to defend people who couldn't defend themselves.... He served in Kosovo and saw the necessity for an armed response there.... When it became bloody obvious that Iraq was no threat and never really had been and it was all about oil, he became incensed, one thing to go to war agains a potential threat to one's nation, quite another to go to war to further the imperialist agenda of a bunch of neo-con arseholes and their corporate paymasters who only wanted oil and power.. He also became incensed that he and his men's lives were being put in a hell of a lot more danger than they would have been due to the disastrous Post-Invasion "plan" drawn up by morons in your Govt.... He also didn't much like seeing his men being injured and killed by an insurgency which, again, YOUR govt was instrumental in creating through bad planning and creating a dangerous power vacuum which allowed Al Qaeda to swarm into the country.. Again, this power vacuum was the result of YOUR GOVT's bad planning......

 

But hey, don't take my word for it, watch that documentary I recommended, it will serve as part of your education in world politics.....

When I was 14, America and UK bombed Libya... I was smart enough to KNOW that was wrong, and for what, just cos a copper was killed outside the Libyan embassy??? And it led DIRECTLY to the bombing of a plane over Lockerbie in retaliation.... I was also smart enough to know that Thatcher ordering the bombing of the Belgrano as it was SAILING AWAY from the exclusion zone, TOWARDS ARGENTINA was basically the equivalent of shooting a man in the back, ie, complete fukkin' cowardice....

 

Dont use your youth as an excuse, some things you just know instinctively are wrong.... Hence my cousin quitting the army that he was proud to serve in for almos 15 years..... We were LIED to about Iraq.....

When I was 14, they didn't teach you about this in school. When I was 14, all we had to rely upon for information was the media, which obviously made everything seem like we were doing the right thing. When I was 14, I was one of the only ones I knew who even HAD an opinion on these matters, no matter how much you might disagree with it.

 

I'm not using it as an excuse, per se - I'm just telling you that I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING that you might expect me to know. For example, all of that stuff you just mentioned? I've never heard of any of it. Call me stupid if you will, but maybe around here things don't work the way they do where you live.

 

All of this is not to mention I never said I agree with the war in Iraq. I HATE the war, I think we should've been out of there long ago! It's not as if I'm saying, "Hell yeah, kill the lot of them!" I wish we'd get our troops back home ASAP! So do most Americans, no matter their age. It isn't like OUR opinions matter - all that matters are the decisions of Congress and the President. If they don't want to leave the Middle East, then we're going to continue to occupy that area until hell freezes over.

 

Nonsense, if the Govt was overthrown in a popular revolution, and another system was set up by those who overthrew it, how would there be any consequences.....? Washington never stood trial for booting out the corrupt regime he got rid of.... It's precisely the same principle.....If the Black Panthers HAD overthrown the Govt in the early 70s, or if Leonard Peltier (Native American activist and personal hero of mine.....) had done the same, neither of them would be in the nick cos they'd be the ones forming the new system of Govt, get my drift....?

 

The Bolsheviks overthrew the Tsar and shot him and his family, they never got arrested and put on trial for it.....

But it's not so simple as you make it out to be! Do you honestly think anyone I could talk to would be willing to oppose the government? We're all going to speak our minds, and people can bash the government as much as they want, but when it comes down to it, they're NOT going to make a stand. Again, maybe where you live, you know people who have enough guts to do that. But tbh, I'd never do anything of the sort. Sorry I'm not all-for overthrowing our government and running the highly probably risk of getting thrown into jail before I'm even old enough to drive. If you'd like to buy a plane ticket and come over here to do it for us, you're perfectly welcome to. I'm not the kind of person who'd really like to be doing time at fourteen.

Again, this power vacuum was the result of YOUR GOVT's bad planning......

Do I look like I can do anything about what my government chooses to do? Just because I'm not storming the White House with my gang of rebels doesn't mean I AGREE with everything they decide up in Washington.

Sorry I'm not all-for overthrowing our government and running the highly probably risk of getting thrown into jail before I'm even old enough to drive. If you'd like to buy a plane ticket and come over here to do it for us, you're perfectly welcome to. I'm not the kind of person who'd really like to be doing time at fourteen.

 

Well, the very least you can do is stop endorsing the John McCain campaign.... You say you're against war, well dont support a racist, bigoted tw@t who's all for a "war without end".....

 

You should read Consie's posts.... A fellow American who has their finger well on the pulse of what's going on in your country.....

 

Well, the very least you can do is stop endorsing the John McCain campaign.... You say you're against war, well dont support a racist, bigoted tw@t who's all for a "war without end".....

 

You should read Consie's posts.... A fellow American who has their finger well on the pulse of what's going on in your country.....

Sorry, but I happen to think McCain would do the least damage. I'm not a fan of Obama, for my own reasons. Besides...it's not like I'm ENDORSING him. I would just prefer that he wins the election. It isn't as if I can vote, anyway.

 

I've read a few of those posts. It doesn't matter what their nationality is; all that matters is that our opinions aren't the same. It's been known to happen, you know. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

Edited June 26, 200817 yr by soXcynical

Sorry, but I happen to think McCain would do the least damage.

 

Dunno what on earth makes you think that..... The man is clearly a dangerous lunatic, racist, religious fanatic and warmonger.....

 

I'd like to know what your reasons for disliking Obama are...... At least Craig listed a few of his reasons, not that I agree in any way with them whatsoever..... Curious to know what your reasons are......

 

 

Does it matter that much, anyway? Maybe I'm a good little Christian who doesn't want a President who was raised by a mother known as "detached from religion," a father who was "raised a Muslim," but a "confirmed atheist" by the time his parents met, and a step-father, "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful," regardless of what he's done since then. Maybe I'm a hardcore Republican who wouldn't choose a Democrat if they were the last person on Earth. Not that any of those reasons are true, but wouldn't you only argue with me more if I were to tell the truth? :P

We'd have the $h!t scared out of us, that's what we'd do.

I agree. It does no good to make threats, even idle ones. Someone's going to get angry, and here comes the war all over again.

I disagree. Maybe some people of power want MORE power - but that can't be attributed to only Americans! [btw. I hate being called a Yank; where I come from, that's what we call airheaded northerners] There are plenty of Americans who would have nothing but peace. There isn't much that can be done if our President thinks war is the right way to go. I think it was understandable to begin the war, since we had been attacked - but we should have been gone long ago. We aren't getting anything done now, other than blood and more blood. Then again, I suppose my being anti-war is rather a bias, but Americans in general want out now. Obama is the only candidate who hasn't addressed the war to my knowledge. But from what I've seen on here, he would continue it. Basically, there isn't much we can do. Hillary Clinton promised to attack people if she was elected, and McCain is all for continuing the war. There isn't much hope now, is there?

 

And anyway, I don't think information like this should be released. Anything to do with war should be concealed from the public to prevent the "enemy" getting hold of it.

 

You sound like a lot of frustrated Americans - you want peace and think the war in Iraq should have long been over, but you remember how it felt to be attacked (9/11).

 

Here are some things to think about (some of them I'm repeating from Scott's posts). The US was attacked by a multinational group of terrorists who were members of an organization under a Saudi leader named Osama bin Laden - this organization is called Al-Qaeda. We invaded Iraq because the Bush administration told the world that Saddam Hussein (a secular dictator) had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction and that he would allow them to be used by Al-Qaeda against the United States. Not only was there no WMD in Iraq, but there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein ever had any connection with Al-Qaeda. In fact, the Bush administration had discussed invading Iraq before he was even elected and he had declared his intent to invade Iraq before any weapons inspections. I encourage you to research the Downing Street Memo. Bush wanted to take over Iraq all along - why? Oil? Economic development (for US corporations)? Strategic military position? To finish his father's "business" from the first Gulf War? Maybe all of the above.

 

It's really, really important to understand that Saddam Hussein posed no threat to the United States. The war in Iraq was based on utter lies, the worst kind of lies. The Bush administration took advantage of Americans' fears, insecurities and vulnerabilities to rush us into this war.

 

Also, to paraphrase what Scott has said, Al-Qaeda is an organization with political goals. Born out of frustration with American military bases being established in Holy Lands, Al-Qaeda leaders have repeatedly claimed that their sold demand is that the US leave the Middle East, specifically our military bases. We want out and they want us out, no problem, right? And that's where Israel comes into the discussion...

 

Now this is kind of a side note, but a lot of people are confused by Al-Qaeda transcriptions saying things like "God willing, the infidels will lose" and "With God we fight" and stuff like that. Makes them sound like a bunch of crazy maniacs. Honestly, though, that's just how people speak in Arabic. "In shah allah" does literally mean "God willing" but Arabic-speakers use it in every other sentence, not only when they're praying or when they're actually asking God of something. Even Christian Arabs use that phrase and others like it.

Edited June 26, 200817 yr by Consie

I'm not using it as an excuse, per se - I'm just telling you that I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING that you might expect me to know. For example, all of that stuff you just mentioned? I've never heard of any of it. Call me stupid if you will, but maybe around here things don't work the way they do where you live.

 

No one said you were stupid. The truth is that we have pretty high expectations in this forum. And especially Scott (Grimly) will not dumb down his comments for anyone. If he refers to something of which you're not aware, it's a good idea to look it up. You'll learn a lot.

 

 

Does it matter that much, anyway? Maybe I'm a good little Christian who doesn't want a President who was raised by a mother known as "detached from religion," a father who was "raised a Muslim," but a "confirmed atheist" by the time his parents met, and a step-father, "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful," regardless of what he's done since then. Maybe I'm a hardcore Republican who wouldn't choose a Democrat if they were the last person on Earth. Not that any of those reasons are true, but wouldn't you only argue with me more if I were to tell the truth? :P

 

Oh dear lord, where to begin??? I can't do this, I have to get up in 6 hours - can someone else take care of this in the meantime? :lol:

Oh dear lord, where to begin??? I can't do this, I have to get up in 6 hours - can someone else take care of this in the meantime? :lol:

Haha, don't worry, I wasn't serious about any of that. I just don't think my reasons for disliking Obama are really relevant in this discussion. They really have nothing to do with this thread, in any way.

 

Btw, thank you for explaining without trying to degrade me - I'm still going to support who I think I should support, but it was nice anyway.

I just don't think my reasons for disliking Obama are really relevant in this discussion. They really have nothing to do with this thread, in any way.

 

Okay, then by all means put them in the relevant thread..... ;)

 

And "argument" is kind of what this forum is about...... :)

You sound like a lot of frustrated Americans - you want peace and think the war in Iraq should have long been over, but you remember how it felt to be attacked (9/11).

 

Here are some things to think about (some of them I'm repeating from Scott's posts). The US was attacked by a multinational group of terrorists who were members of an organization under a Saudi leader named Osama bin Laden - this organization is called Al-Qaeda. We invaded Iraq because the Bush administration told the world that Saddam Hussein (a secular dictator) had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction and that he would allow them to be used by Al-Qaeda against the United States. Not only was there no WMD in Iraq, but there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein ever had any connection with Al-Qaeda. In fact, the Bush administration had discussed invading Iraq before he was even elected and he had declared his intent to invade Iraq before any weapons inspections. I encourage you to research the Downing Street Memo. Bush wanted to take over Iraq all along - why? Oil? Economic development (for US corporations)? Strategic military position? To finish his father's "business" from the first Gulf War? Maybe all of the above.

 

It's really, really important to understand that Saddam Hussein posed no threat to the United States. The war in Iraq was based on utter lies, the worst kind of lies. The Bush administration took advantage of Americans' fears, insecurities and vulnerabilities to rush us into this war.

 

Also, to paraphrase what Scott has said, Al-Qaeda is an organization with political goals. Born out of frustration with American military bases being established in Holy Lands, Al-Qaeda leaders have repeatedly claimed that their sold demand is that the US leave the Middle East, specifically our military bases. We want out and they want us out, no problem, right? And that's where Israel comes into the discussion...

 

Now this is kind of a side note, but a lot of people are confused by Al-Qaeda transcriptions saying things like "God willing, the infidels will lose" and "With God we fight" and stuff like that. Makes them sound like a bunch of crazy maniacs. Honestly, though, that's just how people speak in Arabic. "In shah allah" does literally mean "God willing" but Arabic-speakers use it in every other sentence, not only when they're praying or when they're actually asking God of something. Even Christian Arabs use that phrase and others like it.

 

Cant argue with anything in that post....

 

Another thing SoXCynical - you may just want to know the facts about Al Qaeda as well - Al Qaeda were once part of a group called the Mujahadeen, along with the Taliban... The Mujahadeen were Muslim rebels who fought against the Soviets in Afghanistan... One of your own Senators, Charlie Parker heavily lobbied Senate and Congress to send weapons, training and funding to the Mujahadeen, he got support from Christian fanatics within and from outwith the Govt, and got his wish.. The Mujahadeen were sent BILLIONS in aid, they were trained by the CIA in guerilla warfare tactics, sabotage, etc... Basically, the CIA trained these guys to be terrorists .. Then after the Mujahadeen had achieved their objectives in booting out the Soviets, the support from your country just dried up, nothing was done to create a decent, working infrastructure, establish a civil society or fund education programmes... This outraged Parker himself, but there was nothing he could do.. In short, you just left Afghanistan to fall into the grip of the Taliban and left it to become a failed state. Again, no planning.... Parker himself said "we fukked up the endgame...". Probably the truest thing that a Republican has ever said.....

 

The rest is history, after being allies, the US stabbed Bin Laden in the back over Kuwait, Al Qaeda was created, then 9/11 happened..... Ultimately this is ALL the fault of the Republican Party and a bunch of Right Wing religious w/ankers..... But don't take my word for it, there's plenty of evidence and facts out there to support what I just said....

 

Just bear in mind what myself and Consie say before you come of age and decide to throw in your lot with the Republicans in 2012.... These people do NOT have your back....

When I was 14, they didn't teach you about this in school. When I was 14, all we had to rely upon for information was the media, which obviously made everything seem like we were doing the right thing. When I was 14, I was one of the only ones I knew who even HAD an opinion on these matters, no matter how much you might disagree with it.

 

i thought you ARE 14?... not were implying youre older.

 

 

You sound like a lot of frustrated Americans - you want peace and think the war in Iraq should have long been over, but you remember how it felt to be attacked (9/11).

 

Here are some things to think about (some of them I'm repeating from Scott's posts). The US was attacked by a multinational group of terrorists who were members of an organization under a Saudi leader named Osama bin Laden - this organization is called Al-Qaeda. We invaded Iraq because the Bush administration told the world that Saddam Hussein (a secular dictator) had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction and that he would allow them to be used by Al-Qaeda against the United States. Not only was there no WMD in Iraq, but there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein ever had any connection with Al-Qaeda. In fact, the Bush administration had discussed invading Iraq before he was even elected and he had declared his intent to invade Iraq before any weapons inspections. I encourage you to research the Downing Street Memo. Bush wanted to take over Iraq all along - why? Oil? Economic development (for US corporations)? Strategic military position? To finish his father's "business" from the first Gulf War? Maybe all of the above.

 

It's really, really important to understand that Saddam Hussein posed no threat to the United States. The war in Iraq was based on utter lies, the worst kind of lies. The Bush administration took advantage of Americans' fears, insecurities and vulnerabilities to rush us into this war.

 

Also, to paraphrase what Scott has said, Al-Qaeda is an organization with political goals. Born out of frustration with American military bases being established in Holy Lands, Al-Qaeda leaders have repeatedly claimed that their sold demand is that the US leave the Middle East, specifically our military bases. We want out and they want us out, no problem, right? And that's where Israel comes into the discussion...

 

Now this is kind of a side note, but a lot of people are confused by Al-Qaeda transcriptions saying things like "God willing, the infidels will lose" and "With God we fight" and stuff like that. Makes them sound like a bunch of crazy maniacs. Honestly, though, that's just how people speak in Arabic. "In shah allah" does literally mean "God willing" but Arabic-speakers use it in every other sentence, not only when they're praying or when they're actually asking God of something. Even Christian Arabs use that phrase and others like it.

 

 

..... but if sadam HAD have co-operated fully with the weapons inspectors then 'we' wouldnt have an 'excuse' to go in...

Okay, then by all means put them in the relevant thread..... ;)

 

And "argument" is kind of what this forum is about...... :)

Is it completely unbearable for you if I keep my reasons to myself? I prefer not to get into it again, I was TRYING to leave earlier but apparently that doesn't work..."agreeing to disagree" usually implies the closing of a conversation....

 

Probably the truest thing that a Republican has ever said.....

Do you know any Republicans personally, or are you basing all of your judgments on politicians? All politicians lie, not just Republicans! I have to admit I'm more than offended at your constantly acting as if there has never been a law-abiding, good-hearted Republican in this world...I could introduce you to some if you are in doubt.

 

Just bear in mind what myself and Consie say before you come of age and decide to throw in your lot with the Republicans in 2012.... These people do NOT have your back....

If I don't become a Republican, rest assured I will not become a Democrat. If anything other than Republican I think I'll be Independent. I think political parties are bull$h!t anyway.

 

i thought you ARE 14?... not were implying youre older.

I was merely using that phrase because that's what he was saying. I am fourteen.

..... but if sadam HAD have co-operated fully with the weapons inspectors then 'we' wouldnt have an 'excuse' to go in...

 

That's just bollocks mate... The neo-cons would've invented another excuse... These sorts of American imperialist in the past managed to justify going into Vietnam by "staging" the Gulf of Tonkin incident, a fictitious "attack" from North Vietnam on a US warship which never actually occurred.... I reckon something similar would have happened in Iraq..... There was NO second UN resolution, NO mandate.. End of story.....

 

Do you know any Republicans personally, or are you basing all of your judgments on politicians? All politicians lie, not just Republicans! I have to admit I'm more than offended at your constantly acting as if there has never been a law-abiding, good-hearted Republican in this world...I could introduce you to some if you are in doubt.

 

I am of course referring more to Politicians... But frankly, when I look at some of the idiots who attend Republican rallies, who are clearly the Pro-Life, Pro-Death Penalty, Anti-Gay lot....

 

The Republican cause does tend to attract the crackpots, the maniacs, the racists, the homophobes, the religious nuts FAR more than the Democratic cause does.... Not that I'm saying the Democrats are perfect, far from it, I'll support Obama as long as he does the things I feel he should be doing. If he does not pull US troops out of Iraq (and the ME region in general), or if he bombs Iran or Pakistan, I will be as much against him as I have been against Bush, at the end of the day, I aint a hypocrite and I dont believe in "great leaders" who are perfect and who will somehow protect us from the "evil-doers", when a lot of the sh"t THEY do marks them out as bad as the other "evil-doers"...... Nothing was ever "given" to us mate, we, the people had to TAKE it from the powers that be one way or another, whether through protest (Civil Rights Movement), direct action (UK Poll Tax Riots in 1990) or, indeed, Revolution (Washington, The Bolsheviks, French Revolution, Castro).....

 

What I object to most about American politics is the fact that the word "liberal" has been twisted and contorted over the years to become somehow as bad as calling someone "paedophile" or "rapist".... Gee, I wonder which party spun that particular yarn of bullsh!t....? Republicans or Democrats......? :rolleyes:

 

The level of political debate in your country is utterly childish and on the absolute lowest common denominator thanks mainly to spin and media manipulation.... Although, it has to be said, ours is almost as bad.... But "spin" was an American import as far as I can make out, which the "Nu Labor" Party took up.....

I am of course referring more to Politicians... But frankly, when I look at some of the idiots who attend Republican rallies, who are clearly the Pro-Life, Pro-Death Penalty, Anti-Gay lot....

First of all, what's wrong with pro-life?

Also - yes, there are Republicans who are pro-death penalty or homophobic. But guess what? There are a ton that aren't (my family, for example, and most of the people who live anywhere near me), and there are also a load of Independents and Democrats who are a bunch of homophobic theoretical murderers.

 

The Republican cause does tend to attract the crackpots, the maniacs, the racists, the homophobes, the religious nuts FAR more than the Democratic cause does....

Oh, that's not a blanket statement AT ALL....Do you realize how much of America is racist and homophobic? A ton of it. It isn't as if it's the Republicans and no one else. It's SOME of the Republicans and SOME of the Democrats and SOME of the lazy idiots who won't get off their ass and vote.

 

What I object to most about American politics is the fact that the word "liberal" has been twisted and contorted over the years to become somehow as bad as calling someone "paedophile" or "rapist".... Gee, I wonder which party spun that particular yarn of bullsh!t....? Republicans or Democrats......? :rolleyes:

Liberal isn't offensive. I don't know if you really know EVERYTHING about American politics, considering I highly doubt you've lived for a considerable amount of time in every region of the US (and if you have, forgive me, but I don't think you spent a lot of time studying the South's habits and ways). Liberal is used in almost every political debate, on the news, and not in an offensive manner....

 

The level of political debate in your country is utterly childish and on the absolute lowest common denominator thanks mainly to spin and media manipulation.... Although, it has to be said, ours is almost as bad.... But "spin" was an American import as far as I can make out, which the "Nu Labor" Party took up.....

*frustrated sigh* Okay, you know what? I think I'm a little out of my league with this, and I'm getting too aggravated to make a feasible response. Here begins my second attempt to bow out of the conversation, let's see if I can do it xD