Exactly... To be honest I could have set JJN right as you did, but frankly, he/she is clearly so bloody ignorant of the facts of Evolution and Darwin's theory, it would've been in one ear and out the other, JJN knows about as much about Evolution as they do about Marxism.... Darwin and the real Evolutionary Scientists who have come along in his wake would never have advocated "putting down" children with Downs Syndrome, that's just a ludicrous statement...

 

Bull$h!t. I doubt you ever read the Origin of the Species, in fact, I know you haven´t. How does a species become "stronger"? By the natural selection of stronger individuals on it. The weaker are always left behind, and the ones who have better genes will adapt better in the ambient, and then survive, and that´s what makes species evolve.

 

It´s laughable that you think you´re somehow more intelligent because you´re atheist.. LAUGHABLE, and none but mithology. There are thousand of more intelectually mature people in the world who consider themselves christians. But if that makes you feel better, then it´s okay. Atheist surely need something to make them feel better since it´s scientifically proven that they are more likely to suffer depression and/or commit suicide then an average believer.

 

I´m still awaiting for your "scientifical" reasons for why does human beings have "free will" (Previously discussed in other topic, pretty much every intelectual in recent human history denied, and there´s no scarce scientifical evidence of it - yet you believe it!). Also want to know what´s the reason all human beings should be considered equal...

 

Oh, no.. you´re not coerent enough to stand for your beliefs 100%, so you still have to adapt your views to some values of your older christian background. Because if you turn up 100% to your scientifical materialistic world you would notice: there is no f***ing reasons to be nice or good; humans are not all equal, some are superior, some are inferior; there´s not f***ing reason to worry about a genocide happening in a far continent since it doesn´t affect you; there´s no such things as free will cause that goes against all natural laws... See, that´s what the real atheist world should be when one is coerent enough to leave old "religious" or "mystic" comfortable values. That was Nietzsche´s world, and pretty much every inteligent atheist´s world.

christianity never teached its ideas should be FORCED into others;

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha....

 

...i do hope you're joking

 

The opression of the church towards heretics in the middle ages was a JOKE compared to the opression of atheist governments towards all religions.

 

Are you taking the p*** again? How is the church oppressed? Are we burning them at the stake for believing in God? i don't think we are.

 

The deaths caused by the inquisition, spawned in hundreads of year, could not reach 1/100 of what the marxist regimes killed just in the 21st century, and that´s an historical fact. All atheist regimes have been brutal, AND THAT HURTS YOU! Well, in fact, you can´t argue that they were acting the oposite of what Marx preached in all cases.

 

You're right in that Stalin did kill alot of people, alot more then the inquisition, but it wasn't in the name of Atheism or Marxism it was because Stalin was a power crazed nut who made sure he couldn't be over throwed by killing anyone who could think for themselves.

 

I know it preaches destroyng religion by FORCING the people into atheism.

Thats because in marxism religion is part of the super structure that helps keep the capitalist ideology afloat. Getting rid of religion wasn't because they believed in something different, it's because the Bourgeoisie used it as an exucse to oppress the proles. The killings was to gain power not because of beliefs, it was never in the name of atheism. It's all well and good having the communist manifesto but if you do not understand the reasons behind Marxism for it's actions you may as well have a cooking book instead of the manifesto.

 

It seems you're clutching at straws to try and keep your argument going.

 

 

 

Bull$h!t. I doubt you ever read the Origin of the Species, in fact, I know you haven´t. How does a species become "stronger"? By the natural selection of stronger individuals on it. The weaker are always left behind, and the ones who have better genes will adapt better in the ambient, and then survive, and that´s what makes species evolve.

 

It´s laughable that you think you´re somehow more intelligent because you´re atheist.. LAUGHABLE, and none but mithology. There are thousand of more intelectually mature people in the world who consider themselves christians. But if that makes you feel better, then it´s okay. Atheist surely need something to make them feel better since it´s scientifically proven that they are more likely to suffer depression and/or commit suicide then an average believer.

 

I´m still awaiting for your "scientifical" reasons for why does human beings have "free will" (Previously discussed in other topic, pretty much every intelectual in recent human history denied, and there´s no scarce scientifical evidence of it - yet you believe it!). Also want to know what´s the reason all human beings should be considered equal...

 

Oh, no.. you´re not coerent enough to stand for your beliefs 100%, so you still have to adapt your views to some values of your older christian background. Because if you turn up 100% to your scientifical materialistic world you would notice: there is no f***ing reasons to be nice or good; humans are not all equal, some are superior, some are inferior; there´s not f***ing reason to worry about a genocide happening in a far continent since it doesn´t affect you; there´s no such things as free will cause that goes against all natural laws... See, that´s what the real atheist world should be when one is coerent enough to leave old "religious" or "mystic" comfortable values. That was Nietzsche´s world, and pretty much every inteligent atheist´s world.

 

... so if there are all these intellectually superior christians WHY arnt they putting us straight with reason and facts?..

 

humans have free will, thats a fact, we are not fukin robots! we are given taste, opinion, thought, which is effected by our environment.. aree you suggesting god has already pre-programmed us and we are merely carrying out this route? in which case (as you failed to adress) HE CREATED AND WANTS EVIL. as i see it, theres far more credence to free will then some robotic pre-ordained lifestyle.

It´s laughable that you think you´re somehow more intelligent because you´re atheist.. LAUGHABLE, and none but mithology. There are thousand of more intelectually mature people in the world who consider themselves christians. But if that makes you feel better, then it´s okay. Atheist surely need something to make them feel better since it´s scientifically proven that they are more likely to suffer depression and/or commit suicide then an average believer.

 

ABSOLUTE FUKKIN' BULLSH!T!!!! The amount of former Catholics I know who suffered bouts of depression and suicidal thoughts because of the sh!t their "faith" put on them is unreal..... Just what is your source exactly for this complete bunch of cr@p.....? People grow up having this archaic belief system FORCED UPON THEM BY PARENTS, it sure as hell aint through choice, so when they actually start to have thoughts and feelings which DONT correspond to the propaganda they've had rammed down their throats, well, it kind makes them feel like freaks or that there's summat wrong with them, absolute baloney of course.... It's your "faith" that psychologically fukks people up....

You're right in that Stalin did kill alot of people, alot more then the inquisition, but it wasn't in the name of Atheism or Marxism it was because Stalin was a power crazed nut who made sure he couldn't be over throwed by killing anyone who could think for themselves.

Thats because in marxism religion is part of the super structure that helps keep the capitalist ideology afloat. Getting rid of religion wasn't because they believed in something different, it's because the Bourgeoisie used it as an exucse to oppress the proles. The killings was to gain power not because of beliefs, it was never in the name of atheism. It's all well and good having the communist manifesto but if you do not understand the reasons behind Marxism for it's actions you may as well have a cooking book instead of the manifesto.

 

Too right it wasn't in the name of Marxism John, it was the complete opposite in fact, but of course morons like JJN just like to believe that Marx was the "great satan" and not the genuine force for the empowerment of ordinary people that he was, certainly a lot more than the pathetic "religion" JJN clings to.... Stalin just replaced the existing belief system in Russia with a belief system based upon, er, HIMSELF, made himself a demagogue or "prophet", same goes for Mao, Stalin and Mao pretty much declared themselves "god" in a sense, in Russia you still have Stalinists (or NEO-Stalinists, even though they're pretty much Old-School Hardliners for the most part..) who are very much "true believers" to the extent of it being akin to a religious fervour. That's not "Atheist" in the slightest, atheists dont believe in any kind of religious or quasi-religious figures who force their will onto people, which is exactly what Mao and Stalin were making themselves out to be.... Mao even had his "little black book", a surrogate for the bible if ever there was one....

 

Marxism is against ALL forms of such controlling mechanisms which oppressed the Proletariat, he would have been as violently opposed to Stalinism and Maoism as he was Capitalism, in fact probably more so seeing as how they were p!ssing on his life work.... Those who follow the teachings of Lenin, Engels and Trotsky are genuine Marxists and Socialists....

he would have been as violently opposed to Stalinism and Maoism as he was Capitalism, in fact probably more so seeing as how they were p!ssing on his life work....

I think JJN should read Animal Farm by Orwell to get an idea of how much marxism got twisted into the leaders own ideology and not that of Marx.

Bull$h!t. I doubt you ever read the Origin of the Species, in fact, I know you haven´t. How does a species become "stronger"? By the natural selection of stronger individuals on it. The weaker are always left behind, and the ones who have better genes will adapt better in the ambient, and then survive, and that´s what makes species evolve.

 

So, what do you regard as "stronger" or "weaker" then...? Is it physical or mental prowess....? Evolutionary Science has itself EVOLVED you idiot.... What is now considered "stronger" abilities are totally different... A physically "strong" species wont be able to adapt or survive without the requisite mental capabilities in this day and age, the likes of Stephen Hawkings has proven that a strong mind is equally as important, if not more so, so surely Hawkings represents "natural selection" far more than some overpaid moron who can kick a football into a net regardless of his "poor genes"... So, how does your jaundiced view of evolutionary science take this into account, or also the fact that people with Autism exhibit certain mental abilities that no one else can even fathom, so surely they too are part of "natural selection".... These individuals represent leaps in evolutionary science as much as someone who displays extroardinary physical prowess.... No one gets 'left behind' now in that sense, because the rules of the game are totally different than they were hundreds, thousands of years ago... And this is because Mankind HAS EVOLVED through scientific knowledge and left the extreme religiosity in the dark ages where it fukkin' belongs......

 

ABSOLUTE FUKKIN' BULLSH!T!!!! The amount of former Catholics I know who suffered bouts of depression and suicidal thoughts because of the sh!t their "faith" put on them is unreal..... Just what is your source exactly for this complete bunch of cr@p.....? People grow up having this archaic belief system FORCED UPON THEM BY PARENTS, it sure as hell aint through choice, so when they actually start to have thoughts and feelings which DONT correspond to the propaganda they've had rammed down their throats, well, it kind makes them feel like freaks or that there's summat wrong with them, absolute baloney of course.... It's your "faith" that psychologically fukks people up....

 

id suggest jjn researches all the thousands of fukked up kids that catholic priests ABUSED... oh hold on, it was pre-ordained, therefore GOD wanted that to happen, in fact, he was the architect of their suffering <_<

id suggest jjn researches all the thousands of fukked up kids that catholic priests ABUSED... oh hold on, it was pre-ordained, therefore GOD wanted that to happen, in fact, he was the architect of their suffering <_<

 

Exactly... And what the fukk has "faith" ever done for people with disabilities...? Patronised them at best, fooled them into believing "miracles" and "faith healing", patted them on their backs and said "Jesus Loves You" or "God Moves in mysterious ways" and other such ludicrous platitides.. Whereas SCIENCE has aided the disabled or mentally unbalanced to become productive and empowered members of society through TECHNOLOGY such as computers, software, etc or through anti-psychotic drugs... Steven Hawkins can interact with the world through science, not through bloody "faith" or voodoo which more than likely would have marginalised him or locked him away in some Sanitarium.... Wasn't really all that long ago when people with Epilepsy were thought to be "possessed by demons" and were being exorcised......

 

Yeah, "faith" sure has done a lot to help the disabled innit.....? <_<

 

I think JJN should read Animal Farm by Orwell to get an idea of how much marxism got twisted into the leaders own ideology and not that of Marx.

 

I have already read it... Nobody denies that communist countries have ALL gone miles away from the original marxist doctrine (which, itself, was evil even in its pure form because it preaches FORCING people to adopt the system). The same applies to "the Church", which have flerted with political power for centuries. But is it ask too much for impartiality? Which civilization in this planet, be it christian, muslim or ATHEIST, have not a story of opression behind it. Every serious historian have noticed that. Just a few pseudo-intelectual militant atheist still think that violence and opression have been a direct effect of christianity, and not of the political and/or militar power itself, which just happened to be "officially christian" at the moment. Dull people and with low general culture think that christianity have sent the world into "dark ages".. it requires a minimal historic knowledge to notice pre-christian Europe was as f***ed up as "christian europe", and the most violent century of human history has happened in the "post-christian" era. That´s what I´m just trying to say. Be it christian, budhist, muslim, atheist, marxist civilization or state, violence and opression will always exist.

humans have free will, thats a fact, we are not fukin robots! we are given taste, opinion, thought, which is effected by our environment.. aree you suggesting god has already pre-programmed us and we are merely carrying out this route? in which case (as you failed to adress) HE CREATED AND WANTS EVIL. as i see it, theres far more credence to free will then some robotic pre-ordained lifestyle.

 

It´s funny to see an atheist recurring to a "godly" explanation to justify his unscientific beliefs. Discard God. Just think the material world. Every atom of the universe is subject to the rules of nature, every relevant atheist philosopher have already noticed that. It´s not just a "belief". It´s pure maths and logic.

 

ABSOLUTE FUKKIN' BULLSH!T!!!! The amount of former Catholics I know who suffered bouts of depression and suicidal thoughts because of the sh!t their "faith" put on them is unreal..... Just what is your source exactly for this complete bunch of cr@p.....? People grow up having this archaic belief system FORCED UPON THEM BY PARENTS, it sure as hell aint through choice, so when they actually start to have thoughts and feelings which DONT correspond to the propaganda they've had rammed down their throats, well, it kind makes them feel like freaks or that there's summat wrong with them, absolute baloney of course.... It's your "faith" that psychologically fukks people up....

 

And then you woke up??? I live in a 70% catholic country and never met someone like that. Looks like something you just invented to use in your hate-speech. It´s funny that you consider yourself bigger then some genius of human history... well, blaise pascal, isaac newton, st. augustine, etc, were not intelligent enough to think for themselves and just did what mamma and daddy told them to do. Maybe Isaac Newton was forced by his mummy to spend his entery life studying Bible and theology (his second hobbie, after science). And maybe Plato had a gun in his head when he wrote books talking about "god" (in singular) when he lived in a politheistic Greece. Of course parents teach their kids what they believe is right... An atheist dad will also teach his kids that there is no such thing as God and afterlife, and stuff. When they grow up they´ll think for themselves. Didn´t C.S. Lewis convert to christianity at the age of 33??? Maybe it was his mamma forcing him. Well, big authors, scientists, musicians and philosophers are no enough "freethinking" as a bunch of guys in an internet forum...

 

So, what do you regard as "stronger" or "weaker" then...? Is it physical or mental prowess....? Evolutionary Science has itself EVOLVED you idiot.... What is now considered "stronger" abilities are totally different... A physically "strong" species wont be able to adapt or survive without the requisite mental capabilities in this day and age, the likes of Stephen Hawkings has proven that a strong mind is equally as important, if not more so, so surely Hawkings represents "natural selection" far more than some overpaid moron who can kick a football into a net regardless of his "poor genes"... So, how does your jaundiced view of evolutionary science take this into account, or also the fact that people with Autism exhibit certain mental abilities that no one else can even fathom, so surely they too are part of "natural selection".... These individuals represent leaps in evolutionary science as much as someone who displays extroardinary physical prowess.... No one gets 'left behind' now in that sense, because the rules of the game are totally different than they were hundreds, thousands of years ago... And this is because Mankind HAS EVOLVED through scientific knowledge and left the extreme religiosity in the dark ages where it fukkin' belongs......

 

What did I say about "phisically strong"??? Evolution requires competition, be it physical, intellectual, whatever. And competition requires winners and looser, so humanity can be divided between winnes and looser, be it by physical or intellectual abilities. When you pass your intelectual puberty and the childish hate and reactionary actitudes cease, you´ll undestand it... Humanity have not only evolved because of scientific knowledge alone. Science can develop technologies, cure for diseases, etc. But never say what´s right or wrong. That´s why it´s so hard for you to explain anyone why "people are all equal" for example. Morals don´t belong to the field of science. Well, science developed the athomic bomb. By your childish and dualistic interpretation of the world, then science is an evil that should be avoided. Well, nuclear energy can be useful for several things. But when you think there´s only the material stuff then there´s nothing wrong with using it to kill people. In fact, there is nothing wrong at all, because there´s not scientific way of determining what´s wrong and right.

id suggest jjn researches all the thousands of fukked up kids that catholic priests ABUSED... oh hold on, it was pre-ordained, therefore GOD wanted that to happen, in fact, he was the architect of their suffering <_<

 

Oh, and also the thousand of kids that were abused by doctors (in fact, in much bigger numbers then kids abused by priests if you bother checking the statistics). Let´s abolish medicine then. Oops, I forgot that every little thing that christians do is because of their religion right? Other people do it on their own... but christians only do it because they´re christians lol... It´s funny that you never mentioned faithful people like mother theresa, martin luther king or gandhi. Talk about being impartial... it´s typical from hate people. Well, you don´t have a "god" to serve, but you still have human laws to be subject. And hate towards religious groups is criminalized in most countries, there must be something like that in Englad too.

Exactly... And what the fukk has "faith" ever done for people with disabilities...? Patronised them at best, fooled them into believing "miracles" and "faith healing", patted them on their backs and said "Jesus Loves You" or "God Moves in mysterious ways" and other such ludicrous platitides.. Whereas SCIENCE has aided the disabled or mentally unbalanced to become productive and empowered members of society through TECHNOLOGY such as computers, software, etc or through anti-psychotic drugs... Steven Hawkins can interact with the world through science, not through bloody "faith" or voodoo which more than likely would have marginalised him or locked him away in some Sanitarium.... Wasn't really all that long ago when people with Epilepsy were thought to be "possessed by demons" and were being exorcised......

 

Yeah, "faith" sure has done a lot to help the disabled innit.....? <_<

 

Unlike you, I prefer argument with solid facts. Leave the childish reactions behind. To start with, most of the associations that take care of exceptional kids where I live are based on religious institutions, without any cost for poor people. Well, in fact, the state here have recognized more then once that if all religious affiliated schools and associations were shut down, most of the people in need would be damned. That´s the situation in practically every 3rd world country, but even in Europe and USA there are several institutions like that. So shut your mouth before you say religion has done nothing... try sayng that to kids raised by nuns, because they´re druggy parents left them in front of a franciscan charity house. Tell them what they´re doing is "useless".

 

You talk about religion and science as being opposite... Well, if science has brought us so much goodies then we should choose it and leave religion right??? Well, they´re not mutually excludent if you bother using your brain. That´s like sayng "medicine cures people´s diseas, so let´s leave arts and music alone because they´re done nothing to people who suffer diseases...". I thought that could only occur to an intellectually imature. Science is not property of atheist. Christians have contributed a lot to science aswell. I can give you a f***ing list of practicing christians or jews who were noble prize winners. The excellence of science to human life is hardly an argument against religion.

It´s funny to see an atheist recurring to a "godly" explanation to justify his unscientific beliefs. Discard God. Just think the material world. Every atom of the universe is subject to the rules of nature, every relevant atheist philosopher have already noticed that. It´s not just a "belief". It´s pure maths and logic.

 

eh?... it ISNT 'godly' at all.. its fukkin common sense m8! its what i see all around!

 

EXACTLY every atom in the universe IS subject to the laws of nature... how does THAT fit with 'heaven' 'hell' and even 'god' himself?... maths and logic totally rule out any religion...

 

yet you seem to use a totally unlogical, unscientific, ideologies to support you nebulous doctrine :lol: ... c'mon, life is either 'maths and logic' or its not...

 

 

And then you woke up??? I live in a 70% catholic country and never met someone like that. Looks like something you just invented to use in your hate-speech. It´s funny that you consider yourself bigger then some genius of human history... well, blaise pascal, isaac newton, st. augustine, etc, were not intelligent enough to think for themselves and just did what mamma and daddy told them to do. Maybe Isaac Newton was forced by his mummy to spend his entery life studying Bible and theology (his second hobbie, after science). And maybe Plato had a gun in his head when he wrote books talking about "god" (in singular) when he lived in a politheistic Greece. Of course parents teach their kids what they believe is right... An atheist dad will also teach his kids that there is no such thing as God and afterlife, and stuff. When they grow up they´ll think for themselves. Didn´t C.S. Lewis convert to christianity at the age of 33??? Maybe it was his mamma forcing him. Well, big authors, scientists, musicians and philosophers are no enough "freethinking" as a bunch of guys in an internet forum...

 

oh will you STOP pointing to histories 'great intellects' to try to support christianity... they had THOUGHTS , which were relevant at the time, christ the world of science has boomed since newtons time and we know alot more..

 

so fukkin wot if cs lewis converted at 33.... IT MEANS FUK ALL! ... IT ISNT PROOF, stop leaning of these dubious claims for support... but that what christians do... cling to every nonsensicle bit of 'evidence' ... it isnt proof of anything. i couldnt give a damn what plato thought, because ive studied the evidences for myself, here in the present, with infinately more scientific information then what plato, newton or lewis had... MY conclusions are what matter to me, not somebody elses.

Oh, and also the thousand of kids that were abused by doctors (in fact, in much bigger numbers then kids abused by priests if you bother checking the statistics). Let´s abolish medicine then. Oops, I forgot that every little thing that christians do is because of their religion right? Other people do it on their own... but christians only do it because they´re christians lol... It´s funny that you never mentioned faithful people like mother theresa, martin luther king or gandhi. Talk about being impartial... it´s typical from hate people. Well, you don´t have a "god" to serve, but you still have human laws to be subject. And hate towards religious groups is criminalized in most countries, there must be something like that in Englad too.

 

what utter bollox.... certainly in the western world ive NEVER heard of any doctor being accused of being a sexual pervert... yet whats this, my tv is on, bbc news... the pope in austrailia is apologising for FILTHY p**** CATHOLIC PREISTS who have betrayed their trust and abused kids... thats RIFE in the catholic church, here in the uk, in america.. theres hundereds of cases of it... yet NOT 1 DOCTOR.

 

oh hold on, ghandi, mother theresa, martin luther king... ok youve converted me, i am now a christian! :lol:

 

ffs ... think for yourself, open your mind, unlike us... you are not prepared to contenance the fact that you might be wrong.

 

i am.... i WANT eternal happiness, i WANT gods love, i WANT an end to suffering and evil.. but it ISNT happening, i need something tangible, something i can see as the truth, something science can support... unfortunately that isnt manifest in religion.

Unlike you, I prefer argument with solid facts. Leave the childish reactions behind. To start with, most of the associations that take care of exceptional kids where I live are based on religious institutions, without any cost for poor people. Well, in fact, the state here have recognized more then once that if all religious affiliated schools and associations were shut down, most of the people in need would be damned. That´s the situation in practically every 3rd world country, but even in Europe and USA there are several institutions like that. So shut your mouth before you say religion has done nothing... try sayng that to kids raised by nuns, because they´re druggy parents left them in front of a franciscan charity house. Tell them what they´re doing is "useless".

 

You talk about religion and science as being opposite... Well, if science has brought us so much goodies then we should choose it and leave religion right??? Well, they´re not mutually excludent if you bother using your brain. That´s like sayng "medicine cures people´s diseas, so let´s leave arts and music alone because they´re done nothing to people who suffer diseases...". I thought that could only occur to an intellectually imature. Science is not property of atheist. Christians have contributed a lot to science aswell. I can give you a f***ing list of practicing christians or jews who were noble prize winners. The excellence of science to human life is hardly an argument against religion.

 

thats the biggest load of bullshyte you have ever posted... :lol: what solid facts are there for one point of christianity?.. :lol: hell its not even a fact that the biblical version of jc ever existed! let alone 'god' or heaven and hell...

 

if there was ANY solid facts behind your religion, everyone would know it to be the truth and we wouldnt be having this conversation.

 

of course people who follow the christian doctrine 'do good' in the world, i dont deny that, but, it doesnt make that doctrine the 'truth'.. but again like everything else in christianity, its usurping other peoples ideas, festivals, morals etc... all the 'good' in the world ISNT a result of jc!

oh will you STOP pointing to histories 'great intellects' to try to support christianity... they had THOUGHTS , which were relevant at the time, christ the world of science has boomed since newtons time and we know alot more..

 

so fukkin wot if cs lewis converted at 33.... IT MEANS FUK ALL! ... IT ISNT PROOF, stop leaning of these dubious claims for support... but that what christians do... cling to every nonsensicle bit of 'evidence' ... it isnt proof of anything. i couldnt give a damn what plato thought, because ive studied the evidences for myself, here in the present, with infinately more scientific information then what plato, newton or lewis had... MY conclusions are what matter to me, not somebody elses.

 

Who the hell is sayng that the conversion of some atheist, or the existence of genial christian intelectuals is a proof of God´s existence??? No, it´s not and I was not tryng to say that. It´s just a proof that it´s not impossible to be intelligent and christian at the same time. I´m not only talking about scientists of 500 years or the dark ages. I can write you down a list of today´s names or from a very recent past, including several noble prize winners, which proves that the theory of christians being intelectually inferior is just prejudice and bull$h!t. And by the way C.S. Lewis didn´t live in the neolitic age, he just lived in contemporary England, and was an instructed person, not a peasant.