August 22, 200816 yr Which is why I say I would sign a piece of paper that ensures that the REAL, habitual criminals have no freedom and are taken off the streets by whatever means necessary... But this doesn't mean that I'm willing to go along with something that effects the law-abiding MAJORITY..... Taking out the majority of scum who affect our daily lives will improve all our lives.... Serial Killers and Terrorism are a very rare phenomenon, they dont concern me, you've more chance being struck by lightening to be honest.... It's the random violence that occurs on our streets EVERY FUKKIN' DAY by chavvy gang scum that's the real problem...... And this is carried out in the main by scum who are KNOWN faces and have criminal records as long as John Holmes' dick..... See, there's your "balance", the guilty ones get it, the majority dont..... .... but every habitual criminal is only visible as a habitual criminal when he/she gets caught! :lol: the murder cases mentioned in that tv programme caught 2 men who were invisible to the police as both were 'first time offenders'... both cases were caught using dna technology, thus removing from society 2 killers before they could kill again. to me that FAR outweighs you concerns.
August 22, 200816 yr the murder cases mentioned in that tv programme caught 2 men who were invisible to the police as both were 'first time offenders'... Again, this is incredibly rare... Unless you talk about "crimes of passion" which occur in the heat of the moment, but then in those cases the perpetrators don't make much effort cover their tracks and confess outright, showing remorse... I'd be willing to bet these guys had sealed Juvenile records which the Police would have no direct access to (which is another debate, I would have no problems with unsealing Juvenile records to be honest if it helped, after all, they're still crims no matter the age).... I seriously doubt they started out their criminal activities with murder, even most Serial Killers 'work up' to that, Profilers refer to it as a sort of "evolution"... I dont believe that this is sufficient reason to subject ALL people in this country to DNA testing.... These occurences are too rare to justify it as far as I'm concerned....
August 22, 200816 yr Again, this is incredibly rare... Unless you talk about "crimes of passion" which occur in the heat of the moment, but then in those cases the perpetrators don't make much effort cover their tracks and confess outright, showing remorse... I'd be willing to bet these guys had sealed Juvenile records which the Police would have no direct access to (which is another debate, I would have no problems with unsealing Juvenile records to be honest if it helped, after all, they're still crims no matter the age).... I seriously doubt they started out their criminal activities with murder, even most Serial Killers 'work up' to that, Profilers refer to it as a sort of "evolution"... I dont believe that this is sufficient reason to subject ALL people in this country to DNA testing.... These occurences are too rare to justify it as far as I'm concerned.... i dont agree... EVERY killer, rapist, thief, mugger, thug, starts somewhere. its no use waiting until they've committed enough crimes to build a profile of them when if they were on a dna database theyd be known immediately. so its NOT 'rare', every crim starts somewhere. eg the yorkshire ripper... known after 1 offence, hopefully caught before any more of his victims were killed. hence i believe the database is worth it. besides, you go on about it being possibly abused, what about all the times it could be used to clear (as opposed to convict) innocent people... nah, its a good thing, beneficial to society.
August 22, 200816 yr EVERY killer, rapist, thief, mugger, thug, starts somewhere. its no use waiting until they've committed enough crimes to build a profile of them when if they were on a dna database theyd be known immediately. so its NOT 'rare', every crim starts somewhere. Sorry mate, I am just NOT willing to give up my freedom to the Govt in this way (or with compulsory ID cards either..), you are, fair enough. Put your money where your mouth is, and off you toddle off to the nearest NHS hospital, police station, whatever and take the test..... And while you're at it, give them a copy of the keys to your house, and your computer hard-drive as well so they can "have a look" any time they want..... After all, if you've "nothing to hide"..... :rolleyes:
August 22, 200816 yr what about all the times it could be used to clear (as opposed to convict) innocent people... nah, its a good thing, beneficial to society. Yeah, and, er, how long did it take them to admit they were wrong about Barry George and the Guildford Four/Birmingham 6 again....? Remind me.... Was it swift....?
August 22, 200816 yr EVERY killer, rapist, thief, mugger, thug, starts somewhere. its no use waiting until they've committed enough crimes to build a profile of them when if they were on a dna database theyd be known immediately. so its NOT 'rare', every crim starts somewhere. I would have no issues with putting people convicted or cautioned (and being cautioned means you DO commit an offence, but the Police use discretionary powers to not take it any further 'up the chain' as it were...), because these people are crims, they're just given a slap on the wrist for a relatively minor offence is all, so I would say that it would be appropriate for Police to take their DNA as part of the deal/punishment... Juveniles convicted or cautioned could also be put on a criminal database.... It's the habitual offenders that are the real problem in society as I see it, not the rare one-offs like Sutcliffe..... The vast majority of murderers, rapists, etc would be caught out with a purely "Criminal" database....
August 22, 200816 yr Sorry mate, I am just NOT willing to give up my freedom to the Govt in this way (or with compulsory ID cards either..), you are, fair enough. Put your money where your mouth is, and off you toddle off to the nearest NHS hospital, police station, whatever and take the test..... And while you're at it, give them a copy of the keys to your house, and your computer hard-drive as well so they can "have a look" any time they want..... After all, if you've "nothing to hide"..... :rolleyes: now you are being ridiculous <_< when the time comes, they can have my dna... it bothers me not as i REPETE , i think its a good thing overall. they can look at my hard drive anytime they want to.... its clean :)
August 22, 200816 yr I would have no issues with putting people convicted or cautioned (and being cautioned means you DO commit an offence, but the Police use discretionary powers to not take it any further 'up the chain' as it were...), because these people are crims, they're just given a slap on the wrist for a relatively minor offence is all, so I would say that it would be appropriate for Police to take their DNA as part of the deal/punishment... Juveniles convicted or cautioned could also be put on a criminal database.... It's the habitual offenders that are the real problem in society as I see it, not the rare one-offs like Sutcliffe..... The vast majority of murderers, rapists, etc would be caught out with a purely "Criminal" database.... .......... but they ARNT. sutcliffe et al would have been stopped before anyone else was killed. but how long would new crims go BEFORE being 'caught'? if they already had them id'd by dna on a national database crims would effectively be stopped earlier! how can that be a bad thing?
August 22, 200816 yr Yeah, and, er, how long did it take them to admit they were wrong about Barry George and the Guildford Four/Birmingham 6 again....? Remind me.... Was it swift....? good old fashioned coppering... went wrong.. abused, corrupted... with dna as evidence these would probably never have been convicted in the first place, and if they were dna evidence would speed up their release. as i see it, dna would PREVENT miscarriages of justice like those cases.
August 23, 200816 yr now you are being ridiculous <_< Not at all, the principle is EXACTLY the same.... Your home is your personal, unique space, you wouldn't want anyone to violate it would you, whether burglar nicking stuff or petty bureaucrat installing CCTV cams for some "greater good"...? I put it to you that your own DNA is just as private and personal to your OWN self.... Wont be long before the "Big Brother" State is a reality, I'm telling ya.....
August 23, 200816 yr as i see it, dna would PREVENT miscarriages of justice like those cases. Yeah, right.... I put it that a DNA database would make it far EASIER for them to fit people up... Just lift someone's DNA off a cigarette end or a mineral water bottle (easily enough done by raking through someone's trash), plant it at a crime scene, hey presto, a brilliant, fool-proof method of putting away some "undesirables" that the State wants out of the way ('terrorist suspects' they cant get any proper evidence on, political activists, animal rights people, etc....).
August 23, 200816 yr Yeah, right.... I put it that a DNA database would make it far EASIER for them to fit people up... Just lift someone's DNA off a cigarette end or a mineral water bottle (easily enough done by raking through someone's trash), plant it at a crime scene, hey presto, a brilliant, fool-proof method of putting away some "undesirables" that the State wants out of the way ('terrorist suspects' they cant get any proper evidence on, political activists, animal rights people, etc....). oh per-leez whats to stop any corrupt copper doing that now with 'evidence'?... NUFFIN! tonights local rag...... car thief caught by dna. some chav scum was convicted because his dna was identified in the house he broke into to steal the car keys. the benefits FAR outweigh the diminishing negetives... 9 - 1.
August 24, 200816 yr oh per-leez whats to stop any corrupt copper doing that now with 'evidence'?... NUFFIN! tonights local rag...... car thief caught by dna. some chav scum was convicted because his dna was identified in the house he broke into to steal the car keys. Yeah, and this particular "chav scum" was an unknown was he....??? First time offender....? I rather doubt that, how else would the coppers know what to compare it to, he MUST be in the criminal justice system for summat... Where am I saying I'm against KNOWN offenders and their criminal associates being put on a purely CRIMINAL D-base.....? At present, miscarriages of justice can be more easily sorted out, of course it takes time and political will, but the nature of DNA is that it is PARTICULAR to the individual in a way something like GSR residue is not.. If someone planted Barry George's DNA at the Jill Dando murder scene, he would still be in prison, after all, it's DNA "evidence" innit, totally 'fool-proof', alledgedly...... Colin Stagg would be another one that the coppers would have found it incredibly easy to fit up planting his DNA, no need for "entrapment" or getting some poor WPC to set up a 'honey trap', just slap everyone on a DNA database, and if someone looks like they might be guilty, well, we'll just give it that little 'extra push' to help justice along, yeah..? Sorry mate, you can come up with all the examples in the world, you will NEVER convince me that the authorities just wont use this as a better, far more effective method to fit people up, there are just WAY too many examples of how the Police, Politicians and Prosecutors take otherwise honest science and scientists and twist them to suit their own agendas, 30 years ago, they'd've used this to fit up every Irish Catholic they possibly could, nowadays it'll likely be Muslims or the "local weirdo" like Barry George.... Better a guilty person go free than an innocent one be punished in my book, because any one of us can be that innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time.. Just ask Gerry Conlon, Paul Hill or Barry George.... I absolutely guarantee that if you were a working class Muslim, Asian or Black you sure as hell wouldn't be advocating something like this..... I mean, who do you think would be the most likely targets for any DNA 'stitch-up'.....? :rolleyes:
August 25, 200816 yr Yeah, and this particular "chav scum" was an unknown was he....??? First time offender....? I rather doubt that, how else would the coppers know what to compare it to, he MUST be in the criminal justice system for summat... Where am I saying I'm against KNOWN offenders and their criminal associates being put on a purely CRIMINAL D-base.....? At present, miscarriages of justice can be more easily sorted out, of course it takes time and political will, but the nature of DNA is that it is PARTICULAR to the individual in a way something like GSR residue is not.. If someone planted Barry George's DNA at the Jill Dando murder scene, he would still be in prison, after all, it's DNA "evidence" innit, totally 'fool-proof', alledgedly...... Colin Stagg would be another one that the coppers would have found it incredibly easy to fit up planting his DNA, no need for "entrapment" or getting some poor WPC to set up a 'honey trap', just slap everyone on a DNA database, and if someone looks like they might be guilty, well, we'll just give it that little 'extra push' to help justice along, yeah..? Sorry mate, you can come up with all the examples in the world, you will NEVER convince me that the authorities just wont use this as a better, far more effective method to fit people up, there are just WAY too many examples of how the Police, Politicians and Prosecutors take otherwise honest science and scientists and twist them to suit their own agendas, 30 years ago, they'd've used this to fit up every Irish Catholic they possibly could, nowadays it'll likely be Muslims or the "local weirdo" like Barry George.... Better a guilty person go free than an innocent one be punished in my book, because any one of us can be that innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time.. Just ask Gerry Conlon, Paul Hill or Barry George.... I absolutely guarantee that if you were a working class Muslim, Asian or Black you sure as hell wouldn't be advocating something like this..... I mean, who do you think would be the most likely targets for any DNA 'stitch-up'.....? :rolleyes: .... if he was a first time offender hed still be on the lose <_<, buggered up your argument hasnt it! STILL going on about the possible misuse then quoting instances where 'old fashioned' methods were tampered with look... if a copper has a mind to stitch someone up with evidence, they will do it with or without dna... no difference.
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